[Closed] Margaret Beckett (Warning, piss-boiling content.....)

Government changing its policy, alterations to parliamentary procedures, or surprising election results, do not count as constitutional crisis while the consitution is intact and functioning, which it is.

I agree that it might usefully be called a political crisis, but it is not currently a consitutional one. Neither were the poll tax riots, although I don't think you are were necessarily suggesting they were.

Edit: no offence taken!

All true enough, I just think that this may just be a bridge too far for people to stomach, given all the other crepe they are having to pay out for... Fred Goodwins Pension, bailing out city slickers etc etc, and for that reason I think the absence of proper clear cut rules, (i.e. no formal constitution), will lead to many MP's who ought to be hung out to dry, escaping without real punishment. My senses tell me that if that happens Mr and Mrs Average's piss will spontaneously boil.

At some point the worm will turn! Can't happen soon enough IMHO

Of course, if we accept the parallels being drawn between the banking crisis and the crash of 1929, then there would be a precedent for some rather vigorous politics, against which some vigilance is needed.

While I don't much like the current spectacle, I'd be very suspicious of the sort of government we might get if all the anger floating around at the moment got channelled into active politics...

On that basis, I hope I am right and you aren't, but we shall see. 🙂

The press have lifted the lid of "The machine" and have indeed found that quite a large percentage of it is greased by the Public Purse. This is not something that most of are surprised by.

For my part, the loss of a few thousand tax pounds is more than off set by the rather public humiliation that some of the seedier elements in the system are being exposed too, some of whom will undoubtedly lose their seats come the next election.

Absolutely agree there BD.

Thats why I think its really important that the issue gets headed off at the pass, but I fear that between lack of effective leadership, and the stupidty of the "I'm going to vote for the BNP/UKIP to teach them a lesson" brigade its going to get worse before it gets better.

I do however, hope that at the end of it the fundamental rottenness in our society has taken a bit of a hiding.

BG

I also hope as an electorate we dont "throw the baby out with the bath water" however I suspect this is potentially more damaging than almost any political crisis in recent times.
Simply because it is an easily understandable manifestation of greed at a time when the publics consciousness is full of high unemployment and an economic slowdown.

"Take Jeremy Corbyn for example, he hasn't claimed anything ......"

He's the MP for Islington North, which is an Inner London constituency, which means he is not entitled to claim it

Fair enough, I wasn't aware that Islington North was very much nearer to Westminster than Harrow East. And there the employment minister Tony McNulty parents' have a home for which he has claimed £60,000 - even though he lives in Hammersmith which is only three miles from the House of Commons.

[url= http://www.****/news/article-1163792/Ministers-60-000-expenses-parents-home-Rumbled-Tony-McNulty-drops-claim--calls-curtailed.html ]McNulty drops claim... then calls for it to be curtailed[/url]

I guess that means that all of inner London's MPs will automatically go on stuartie_c's 'Green List' then .....

What winds me up is the lack of morals that many of these MPs have. Saying "sorry" because you got caught (exposed) and then offering to pay it back stating that the system was at fault just shows how little respect these people have for us. The banks and these MPs seem to think that by saying "sorry" is all that's needed and accountability doesn't apply to them. I think well done the DT for exposing this info to the public.

well done the DT for exposing this info to the public

All of the information, barring the addresses, was going to be released to the public in July anyway.

ernie, I think the key here is the Telegraph got it all out there before there was a chance for any other challenges and/or "redactions" of the details, but otherwise, yes that is the case.

I don't think that there has ever been any suggestion that the details in the information would have been 'tampered with' before they were released Captain.

Given the squirming that the Commons had been going through to try and avoid/defer publication, would you be so sure they wouldn't have tried, Ernie?

Given the squirming that the Commons had been going through to try and avoid/defer publication

Well in that case Captain it must have really bad when the Tories were in power, because they categorically refused to make public MPs expenses.

And of course not forgetting, we all know who to blame for mess, don't we ?

[i]"Thatcher ordered an independent review which recommended rises that would make even Jacqui Smith blush. But that would have enraged voters. So a squalid little deal to appease parliamentarians was brokered. Less pay, but more cash by the back door."[/i]

[url= http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_headline=blame-thatcher-for-this&method=full&objectid=21346871&siteid=93463-name_page.html ]Former Tory MP Jerry Hayes says "Blame Thatcher for this"[/url]

How did I know it would be Thatcher's fault eventually! 😀

ernie, I think this goes across the parties. It's the individuals not the parties that are at fault IMO. I would like many of these people to be fined and replaced ASAP.

How did I know it would be Thatcher's fault eventually

Because you had already read what the former Tory MP had said ?

Here, let me remind you again what he said :

[i]"As the great Westminster gravy train shudders to a halt, Gordon Brown has one consolation as he hurls Nokias at cowering officials.

He is not to blame for the greed that has corroded public confidence. [b]The person responsible for filling more boots than Imelda Marcos, is Margaret Thatcher[/b]."[/i]

It's a little beauty isn't it ?

How did I know it would be Thatcher's fault eventually!

Come on, Flashy; it's [b]ALWAYS[/b] Facha's fault!

Seeing as how she was a nasty, evil, greedy self-serving bitch, I'm not surprised at this.

Please, Maggie; just die. Please.

Amen

Must be Maggie...never took a pay rise from the day she entered no.10 to the day she left...and famously decorated no.10 out of her own pocket.
Bitch

Must be Maggie...never took a pay rise from the day she entered no.10 to the day she left...and famously decorated no.10 out of her own pocket.

Christ, you have your priorities all sorted luv...

I wasn't aware that Islington North was very much nearer to Westminster than Harrow East. And there the employment minister Tony McNulty parents' have a home for which he has claimed £60,000 - even though he lives in Hammersmith which is only three miles from the House of Commons.

But don't feel too generous towards the "Inner" London MPs (including Corbyn) - they all get generous London weighting.

I am an irritated labour member, but that is as close as I get.

Must be Maggie...never took a pay rise from the day she entered no.10 to the day she left...and famously decorated no.10 out of her own pocket.

'Ye sordid prostitutes have you defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices?
Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole Nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievance redress'd, are yourselves become the greatest grievance....I command ye therefore, upon peril of your lives, to depart immediately out of this place; go, get you out! Ye venal slaves be gone!'
Oliver Cromwell to the Rump Parliament 1653

It is so gratifying to see how far we've come....

Hear hear, vote Lib-Dem they're squeaky clean... Hell their honourable leader (my MP) even spent money on his garden in order to do us a favour in the future. Thanks Nick.

It is a fact that is too little known or remembered that throughout her time as Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher did not take the salary she was entitled to as Prime Minister and instead drew the salary of an ordinary cabinet Minister.

Recently I was talking to her about the current debate on Member´s allowances and I asked her why she had not taken her full salary as PM. I knew the answer. "We didn´t need it. DT had done well and our outgoings were not that great. We lived above the shop and worked and worked and worked. And in any case it was taxpayers' hard-earned money." The last four words were given particular force. Perhaps another example of a part of ´Thatcherism´ that could do with copying by today´s politicians?

Well, that's terribly interesting and has completely changed my memory of Tory sleaze (now replaced by Labour sleaze), apart, of course, from it saying a different thing to what you said, and still not having a citation...

The bitch din't take her full PM's salary, as compared to the return on her and her family's business investments, the difference was probbly peanuts. Ok to appear altruistic, when you can afford too..

was not as if she had a family to feed, from an income dependent on an industry which was about to be shut down, with no opportunity to gain sufficient income from employment elsewhere.

Bitch. Is she still alive? Every day she lingers on this Earth, is another day Britain mourns....

Not the mines again surely....think you need to look abit harder.The mine closing was well under way before maggie was anywhere near power !

Throughout the 1960s, with a Labour Government in office from 1964, the pit closure programme accelerated; it decimated the industry. During this period, nearly 300 more pits were closed, and the total workforce slumped from over 750,000 in the late 1950s down to 320,000 by 1968. In many parts of Britain, miners now became known as ?industrial gypsies? as pit closures forced them to move from coalfield to coalfield in search of secure jobs.

roddersrambler - you are really talking sh1te (and who was talking about the mines btw?) no one but the Thatcher government was responsible for the destruction of the British coal industry.

If coal production was cut back in the late 50s and 60s it was because demand coal had fallen (for obvious reasons such people not using coal for heating and BR becoming fully electric/diesel). The pit closures of the 1980s had nothing whatsoever to do with a fall in demand for coal, in fact Britain uses today approximately the same amount of coal as it used in the 1980s. And yet we no longer have a coal industry to speak of.

The pit closures carried out in the 1980s were purely for nasty, vindictive, class-based, political reasons. Thatcher's deep hatred for organised British workers is well known.

Furthermore, Labour was only in power for 4 years in the period from the late 50s until 1968. And of course this was a period of full employment, so that any hardships which pit closures might of caused pale into insignificance compared to pit closures in the 1980s - remember that was a period when due to deliberate government policies, unemployment reached 3 million, the highest levels since the Great Depression.

Here you are roddersrambler, have a read of this quote :

"[i]Robens, in his 10 years (1961-71) as Coal Board chairman, closed 400 pits and made 300,000 men redundant. Yet he did it with great care, immense social provision to cushion the human impact and with the co-operation of the NUM and its outstanding general secretary, Will Paynter, another Communist. Of course, this was at a time when the general level of unemployment was low. It was never easy but it was handled with political skill and sympathy.[/i]"

Note it's comment that it was done with the co-operation of the NUM and it's communist general secretary. Miners were always prepared to accept pit closures if they were carried for economic reasons and the social consequences were dealt with. This however, was far from the case with Thatcher.

Do any of the Tories on here genuinely believe that that evil bitch truly acted, at all times, in the best interests of ALL British people?

Deep down, you know that she din't. Mind, most politicians don't, let's be fair, but Thatcher treated the working class backbone of this country like shit, and instilled a greedy, insecure, selfish mentality in the minds of a nation divided by class, race, culture and ideology. Set people against each other, divide and rule, dog eat dog.

There was no humanity, no caring, no compassion, within Thatcher, or her politics. Only a megalomaniacal desire to destroy the will of the masses, to rule over a people too weak and frightened to resist. And she used whatever means she could, to achieve her aims.

Sadly, we are still suffering very much, from the legacy of her tyranny.

Please. Maggie; I beseech you; just die.

I'll even build the coffin...

The pit closures of the 1980s had nothing whatsoever to do with a fall in demand for coal, in fact Britain uses today approximately the same amount of coal as it used in the 1980s. And yet we no longer have a coal industry to speak of.

I think you're answering your own questions here !
The reason so many jobs were lost in the 80's were due to advancement in technology.It did people a favour.Would you like to work down a pit ?
Industries evolve,are the cornish still going on about the loss of tin mines ? Or the ship builders of Liverpool or Newcastle ? If there is no longer a market for such things why keep them open ? LDV vans is a good example,no one wants them cos they are shite and know one needs/wants them.

was not as if she had a family to feed, from an income dependent on an industry which was about to be shut down, with no opportunity to gain sufficient income from employment elsewhere.

Rudeboy was referring to the mines i think.

I think you're answering your own questions here !

I wasn't asking any questions.

I was challenging your absurd claim that what happened to the coal industry in the 1980s was exactly the same as what happened to it in the 50's to 60s.

BTW the coal which we are using today isn't British coal which is being mined by robots, it's foreign coal which is being mined by foreign miners.

I was challenging your absurd claim that what happened to the coal industry in the 1980s was exactly the same as what happened to it in the 50's to 60s.

I was simply pointing out that it was not solely Mrs T that closed mines down.I think some people think that she was the only person to close pits.

BTW the coal which we are using today isn't British coal which is being mined by robots, it's foreign coal which is being mined by foreign miners

Thank god for that,i wouldn't want anybody i know be subjected to working in such conditions.The sooner we become dependent on other energy sources the better.The stuff is dangerous to get at...and it stinks !

Thank god for that,i wouldn't want anybody i know be subjected to working in such conditions

So it's ok for other people in foreign lands to mine it, then?

Pull yer head out of her arse. It must surely stink.

See, we've made it all nice and comy for you! In you get, Maggie...

[img] [/img]

(Eco-friendly bamboo coffin. She'd be doing her bit for the environment)

I hope Michael Foot dies a painful early death. When he does, I shall sip champagne and dance a little jig.

Actually, I won't because I'm not that utterly pathetic. You sad, sad little man, RudeFred. Pathetic.

Fine, disagree with someone's politics and policies, I know I do with the current shower in government, but this pathetic wish for someone to die is just that, pathetic.

Flashy, pull your head out of her arse too. The woman is an evil bitch. Just for the Belgrano alone, she deserves no pity.

You can support someone who thought that an evil scumbag like Pinnochet was ok, if you want. That's your choice. And you can call me a 'sad, pathetic little man', if it eases your conscience, if you like.

But woe betide you ever end up in poverty, mate, or living under a totalitarian fascist regime, where you may be tortured for having views that differ from your Glorious Leader.

Supporter of Thatcher = Apologist for murder.

Touchpaper lit...

(Retires to safe distance)

So it's ok for other people in foreign lands to mine it, then?

The sooner we become dependent on other energy sources the better.The stuff is dangerous to get at...and it stinks !

You have not put a true reflection on what the funeral will be like...you have missed out the grand horse drawn carriage ... i don't see any failed Labour prime ministers being awarded a state funeral.
Just think if a socialist was given a state funeral,the funeral director would probably be on strike anyway.Maybe you could use some coal we don't need anymore to cremate some of the champagne socailists.Won't be long till John "heart attack waiting to happen" Prescott snuffs it !!

I was simply pointing out that it was not solely Mrs T that closed mines down.I think some people think that she was the only person to close pits.

I wasn't aware that many people thought that.

However Thatcher was of course solely responsible for the complete destruction of the British coal industry. And since RudeBoy had simply said : "industry which was about to be shut down" I can't see why you felt that there was a need to pull him up about it.

But hey ..... you're now saying that Thatcher only did it because of her deep concern for British workers working in "such conditions" ? LOL !

I like it ! ....... when your political argument fails, turn to comedy instead !

Just think if a socialist was given a state funeral,the funeral director would probably be on strike anyway.

Why now bring 'socialism' onto the argument ?

This has nothing to do with 'socialism' it's about Thatcher and her deep hatred for British workers.

From the same article as I've previously quoted :

"[i]Robens pointed out the economics of the problem and the need for huge investment and pit closures, saying: 'Prime minister, if I take this job, given the problems, I'm never going to get the industry to balance its books.' Macmillan looked at him and replied: 'My dear boy, you will have to blur the figures, blur the edges.'[/i]"

Now of course Macmillan was a Conservative prime minister. But he saw the British mining industry as part of "the family silver", as he called it.

Are you bitter about the closure of coalbrookdale,despite the fact we don't build things out of iron anymore or the closure of the ship builders of the south who made ships out of wood ?? even though we don't need them anymore ? What about the hundreds of other industries that have fallen by the way as a result of evolution ?

Of course not, they weren't "Thatchers Fault"

she deserves no pity.

Aye Fred, a woman breaks down all the political barriers, defeats the glass ceiling, brings an end to the cold war and the constant threat of Nuclear annihilation, defends the rights of a dependent colony invaded by a foreign facist power (ie, rather than invading other countries on false claims), defeats the Trotskyite unions, brings home owning to the masses, cures the sick man of Europe, and - most importantly of all invents Mr Whippy Ice Cream!

What a **** she was!

I'm not sure whether 'bitterness' comes into it. I'm more concerned about sound politics.

And I'm not sure about the point you're trying to make - I've already told you that Britain uses approximately the same amount coal today, as we were using when Thatcher started to destroy the industry. I can't be arsed to give you links but if you do a search you'll see that coal consumption is about the same - maybe very slightly down, but in essence about the same.

However for intents and purposes, we don't produce coal anymore.

Oh dear. Labrat's been let out again... 🙄

Supporter of Pinnochet, supporter of Apartheid, denied schoolchildren a vital source of nutrition, masterminded the sale of vital social housing stock, closed hospitals, shut down industries, failed to invest in the nation's infrastructure, sold off all the state-owned utilities, encouraged selfishness and greed, masterminded the deregulation of the banks, sold weapons to third-world dictators, supported the racist policies of Enoch Powell, presided over huge unemployment and poverty, and increasing crime, ordered the murder of over 600 Argentinian sailors in a boat sailing [i]away[/i] from the Falklands, severely damaged the NHS, failed to invest adequately in Education, introduced the Poll tax, scrapped the GLC despite overwhelming numbers of Londoners opposed to such a plan, and bore a son who has been involved in all sorts of mercenary nastiness.

Lovely woman!

To be honest RudeBoy, I'm little surprised that Labrat is clearly such a huge fan of Thatcher.

I had no idea - I would have assumed that she was probably a bit too left-wing for him 😕