So @croe your rationale for male privilege being laughable / those that talk about it being laughable is that many men kill themselves? That's just whataboutery, not a rebuttal.
I'm a white male.
I was abused by an adult in the bath at school.
I've been masturbated at by a stranger in a car park.
My best friend jumped in front of a train just before our A Levels.
I have dark times and have thought about doing the same myself.
In the context of the OP, I still see that I have male privilege and I can see how/why some women become conditioned to being afraid of being out late alone.
Where my experience differs from that of a woman is that I knew full well that if I became uncomfortable enough I had the means and power to stop things from progressing due to the simple fact of being bigger and stronger that the vast majority of women. That is the “privilege” that I enjoy due simply to being male. I didn’t ask for it, I didn’t earn it, it’s just the way it is. A woman is far less likely to have such an ability to deal with unwanted and inappropriate attention.
This
I got unwelcome sexualised comments on my appearance at work ( I'm a nurse remember). Because I have the confidence I tore them a new one for doing so. Much hard for for a woman to do so.
Because I have the confidence I tore them a new one for doing so. Much hard for for a woman to do so.
That is more about confidence than any privilege so again a different topic. My wife is more likely to "tear someone a new one" than I am for example and so is my sister.
So @croe your rationale for male privilege being laughable / those that talk about it being laughable is that many men kill themselves? That’s just whataboutery, not a rebuttal.
It's laughable because for most of its users they cannot admit that if there is such a thing as male privilege then the same can be said of female privilege. But hey misogyny!
Even the users here saying that they have confidence and size to deal with harassment because they are men are not taking into account the likelihood that people freeze in such situations. Do they think only women freeze?
I think this thread would have been better closed at this point.
It's all men need to know about why women don't go out alone at night:
I don’t realistically think that there is a rapist hiding and waiting in the trees on the off chance that a lone woman will appear; it’s just that a woman, alone at night, seems to attract nob-heads. Should you be out by yourself at night every drunk/druggy/nob-head feels that you are clearly desperately lonely and therefore obliged to be their new best friend. Often they can be quite unpleasant and aggressive when you decide to carry on with your planned evening.
Not this shit again!
All those trotting out the "male on male violence" stat. I wonder what percentage of that is alcohol fuel violence, which started as an aggressive argument and someone got 2nd place?
I had the means and power to stop things from progressing due to the simple fact of being bigger and stronger that the vast majority of women.
^This. However, plenty on here discount that simple fact.
Growing up in a fairly rough area, I got into numerous violent confrontations. There is nothing quite as terrifying as someone coming at you who you know is way bigger and stronger and you have no chance.
Man here, I do moderate where and when I go out because since I was 18:
1. Mugged by two guys with machetes in a middle class residential area of Leeds at 10pm.
2. Mugged by two guys on my door step in Liverpool at 9pm.
3. Standing the street talking to a female friend and was punched in the face by a bloke passing by.
4. Had a set of youths try to take my bike while out on a trail - 4pm
5. Had a set of youths try to take my bike while on a canal ride (middle of nowhere) 5pm
6. Just last week a local peak district rider was attached and relieved of his Banshee bike in a very remote area.
I hate to break it to everyone but attacks don't just happen in Urban areas, scum are now waiting on well known trails as they know there is no one there to stop them. Not all blokes are 6ft and well built and are therefore also seen as easy targets.
So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.
Ok so you need time to access the teaching, and actually have a club local enough to be easy to use
Then there are financial implications, nothing is free anymore
Plus you actually have to go out at night, and risk becoming a victim
But to sit back, do nothing pro active about it, then you let the situation dictate to you and its a self fulfilling prophecy
Yes, yoy should not need Jackie Chan levels of kung foo mastery to be able to go about your business safely, ang here comes the big but, in the UK at the moment there are just too many people intent on taking advantage of the vulnerable
Growing up in a fairly rough area, I got into numerous violent confrontations. There is nothing quite as terrifying as someone coming at you who you know is way bigger and stronger and you have no chance.
So where was your male privilege there?
Singletrackmind - Feeling safe at night is not about thinking you could rip some bloke's nuts off if he dropped his trousers it's being able to go out and not worry about blokes who might drop their trousers.
One thing I find fascinating whenever this topic comes up is that some folk who I have argued with strongly over other aspects of social justice / policy / politics etc really get it. But I am disappointing by the number who not only do not understand by try to argue against male privilege being a thing. Mansplaining much?
So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.
Worse than that, some of them wear short skirts.
So where was your male privilege there?
That was generally an exception, however, with male on female violence, this is almost always the rule.
This thread demonstrates a fundamental problem with the human condition and society. An abject inability or unwillingness to empathise with fellow humans from a slightly different group. In this case gender, but see race, nationality, political affiliation, chosen form of commuting vehicle...
The ability to dehumanise those who are a little different to ourselves is one of the most sinister and damaging human traits that we possess.
Well this thread has been a depressing read on the most part.
*So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.*
Wow. Words fail me.
@singletrackmind your post seems to succinctly sum up the entire concept of 'just not getting it'.
Chuffing heck.
This is my take on this and I should mention that I am a male. However, in general,I don't hold my own gender in a very high regard when I look at the world around me.
Anyway...
Family law/ the courts are still very much biased towards the mother. I've had first hand experience of that. Though the laws and bias in place is ironically mainly male imposed.
"Men work, women look after the children."
Provision for mental care in the UK is on its knees due to the general neglect imposed by the Conservatives over many years. It isn't gender specific imo. That said, the appalling rates of male suicide in this country needs addressing and fast.
As a complete pacifist by nature I couldn't punch my way out of a paper bag but at 6 foot tall and fairly big I tend to be left alone most of the time. So it's a "mask" but one most women by nature can't pull off. Does apply to some men too though.
In part my issue with male bias is at a global level. The wars and global power struggles that affect us all at some level tend to be universally instigated by men.
You see this in miniature in most town centres on a Saturday night at closing time.
Try to treat everybody with a bit of respect and compassion irrelevant of gender and you can't go far wrong in life.
It’s laughable because for most of its users they cannot admit that if there is such a thing as male privilege then the same can be said of female privilege. But hey misogyny!
It's entirely possible that there is female privilege in some areas (and there probably is). But that doesn't mean there isn't male privilege in other areas.
I do think much of these arguments are a result of privilege being a very poorly chosen phrase in many cases.
To my mind privileges are things that are neither feasible nor desirable to extend universally. Feeling safe walking alone isn't a privilege by this definition. Feeling unsafe is an issue to be addressed.
To get back to the OP. I still think this sort of issue is more complex than bandying about a trendy 'male privilege' desciption. Take something taht genuinely affects both sexes equally. Riding a bike on a road. Women are (apparently) much more frightened mixing it with traffic, so they cycle less. This isn't because rufty tufty men just bounce off taxis with impunity. It's about perceived risk & attitude to risk.
I don't think the "I'm a bloke so I can handle myself in town" accurately refects the actual risk of assault that males face. It is about their reaction to that threat. Calling it 'male privilege' seems a bit bandwagon jumping to me.
Lego and Imno seem to grasp the reality of the situation more than the bandwagoneers who seem to be scouring the earth in search of things to attribute to "privilege".
Man here, I do moderate where and when I go out because since I was 18:
1. Mugged by two guys with machetes in a middle class residential area of Leeds at 10pm.
2. Mugged by two guys on my door step in Liverpool at 9pm.
3. Standing the street talking to a female friend and was punched in the face by a bloke passing by.
4. Had a set of youths try to take my bike while out on a trail – 4pm
5. Had a set of youths try to take my bike while on a canal ride (middle of nowhere) 5pm
6. Just last week a local peak district rider was attached and relieved of his Banshee bike in a very remote area.
That’s some really shit luck right there. I grew up in an interesting part of West Yorkshire and nothing remotely like that has happened to me. Only 5ft 9” but I’ve been told I look a bit mean.
Buzzwords can tend to derail debates more than anything else. If Male Privilege wasn’t mentioned in the title this might have gone differently I think.
I find it sad and depressing that any woman (or man) feels unsafe or feels they need to plan ahead to do things that some wouldn’t even remotely think about.
Lego and Imno seem to grasp the reality of the situation more than the bandwagoneers who seem to be scouring the earth in search of things to attribute to “privilege”.
The use of a dictionary definition of the word privilege to try to minimise the impact on the lives of women is as idiotic as saying there no such thing as racism as there is no scientific definition of race.
Try to look past the label, afte rall a rose by any other name would smell as sweet or perhaps in this case "a turd by any other name would smell as foul".
Buzzwords can tend to derail debates more than anything else. If Male Privilege wasn’t mentioned in the title this might have gone differently I think.
they can, but that's more of a reflection on those taking umbrage, rather than the 'buzzwords'.
As far as my mum is concerned, 'gay' and 'queer' are both modern lefty buzzwords and she remains dismayed that they're associated with such distasteful stuff as, er, same sex love. And she's not alone. But we shouldn't stop using them based on that kind of reaction.
I sometimes think that for middle-aged blokes we should reframe the nascent concept of intersectional privilege as 'marginal gains'. Small things that can add up over the years to produce a more substantial result.
Turns out most (every?) women feels anxious about going out alone and would never go out alone late or after dark.... next time you’re out alone in the dark by yourself having a good time consider not everyone is able to do so.
I’ve been doing some research recently on a side angle to this, investigating why there is such a disparity between the number of men and women using the outdoors. Where I got to with it was that a large contributing factor was the socialisation of boys and girls, with boys encouraged/allowed to be boisterous and go outdoors (“boys will be boys”) and girls and encouraged to be sweet and passive. I classified these traits into normalised ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ behaviours because they are socialised behaviours/expectations rather than biological ones (there’s another argument about the socialised aspect of binary genders, but now is not the time!). Consequently, some women and men who have not been socialised this way cross the norms, but they are in the minority. This works against men as well as women, because expected behaviours create pressures to behave in a certain way. If anyone wants 4500 words on why adventure is a ‘masculine’ privilege it will hopefully be published soon.
Female privilege. **** my boots, I've heard it all now.
Yes, of course there are areas of life where being female is an advantage. But this is far, far outstripped by the areas where it's an advantage to be male. This is - slowly - changing, and some seem to see this as a threat. For instance,
This is now showing signs of entering the workplace where young women are overtaking men up until age of 30ish or so.
OH MY GOD! We can't have that, can we! It's only been the other way round for hundreds of years, quick, get them all back in the kitchen in between squeezing out babies. Won't somebody think of the men!
Yes, male suicide is a problem. And it's the other cheek of the same arse, boys are told to "man up," to suppress their emotions, to be big and powerful. To be, y'know, privileged.
Yes, domestic violence against men is a problem. One of the biggest issues is that it's under-reported. See the previous paragraph, any guesses as to why this might be the case? What do you reckon the stats are for the gender split here? 50:50?
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Yes, random violence and harassment against men is a problem. But the number of times your average bloke will have been harassed on the streets pales into insignificance compared to how often your average woman will experience it. I can count on the fingers of one foot the number of times I've thought, "wow, I'd feel much safer right now if I was a woman out here on my own." Read some of the other comments here, for many women this is their daily experience. And sure, the fear of attack might be disproportionate to the likelihood of an actual attack, but do you think it's OK to have been driven into thinking that in the first place?
Someone earlier posted about a trail in the woods being a gender leveller. In isolation this may be true, but who do you think might be more likely to be stalked and followed into a remote area? Now, how about if you take the same commute home every day, walk / ride the same trails every night? Of course, the risk is probably still low, you might take the same route somewhere for twenty years and only encounter a nutter once... but it only takes once.
If you cannot or will not see how any of this is a problem, then QED, you are part of the problem I'm afraid.
So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.
All three of my daughters do JJ, BJJ and MMA. The eldest got a silver in the Junior World Champs last year, the middle one got gold.
That doesn’t stop men from staring at the oldest one and making comments, even when I’m with her. She’s 15 ffs. Walking with her Dad! I’m fairly confident that she could put them in hospital very quickly, but why should she? And at what point should she start trying to Bruce Lee four twenty-somethings?
(This happened last Sunday evening.)
The use of a dictionary definition of the word privilege to try to minimise the impact on the lives of women is as idiotic as saying there no such thing as racism as there is no scientific definition of race.
Completely agree. I hope it was obvious that my comment wasn't aiming to do that though.
I'm just saying that when there is a 'right' that we think should be made universal -- like access to clean water, or feeling safe walking down the street -- we shouldn't call those that have that right already 'privileged', just because others don't have it. It's an inflammatory way to go about addressing the issue, as labelling someone privileged normally provokes guilt, and indeed this is typically the intention. What results are unhelpful arguments like that in this thread, rather than constructive debate.
This is compounded by the fact that when labels are applied to whole groups, irrespective of individuals' contexts, some will inevitable get offended/outraged by a label that doesn't describe their experience.
https://medium.com/human-development-project/let-s-stop-talking-so-much-about-privilege-8f9fe543c57e
Oh, and,
The example of divorce is interesting. Yes, the courts will heavily bias the woman here, and I think this is definitely something which needs review and modernisation. But it comes from the time when the man was the breadwinner, it exists to protect the woman from - say it together with me if you like - the male privilege which meant that without a big strong man to look after her she'd be screwed. Penniless, homeless and worthless.
I’m just saying that when there is a ‘right’ that we think should be made universal — like access to clean water, or feeling safe walking down the street — we shouldn’t call those that have that right already ‘privileged’, just because others don’t have it.
The privilege isn't having clean water. The privilege is being in a position where the concept of not having clean water never even crosses your mind.
I think what people are arguing is the incorrect use of the term "male privilege"
There are situations where being a woman definitely puts them at more risk. This is not however male privilege.
There are situations were being a man definitely puts them more at risk. This is not female privilege.
There are advantages and disadvantages that come along with being either gender.
We all need to work on making life as equitable for each other regardless of gender, race or sexual persuasion. Its not a man thing or a woman thing its human thing.
So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.
Police advice is often to not fight back - men and women - for fear of provoking further violence. I am not 100% convinced by this personally. Could a well trained woman stop 4 male boozed up thugs? Or would fighting back just mean more violence?
What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.
Wouldnt it be easier for ****s to stop being ****s?
Had to change my male genetalia swear word to a female one to make the swear filter work
#maleprivilege
I’m fairly confident that she could put them in hospital very quickly
Then you have been watching too much tv and too many movies.
I’m just saying that when there is a ‘right’ that we think should be made universal — like access to clean water, or feeling safe walking down the street — we shouldn’t call those that have that right already ‘privileged’, just because others don’t have it.
er, but....
privilege
NOUN
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.
It’s an inflammatory way to go about addressing the issue, as labelling someone privileged normally provokes guilt, and indeed this is typically the intention.
IMO it is very small group of people who feel guilt when it is suggested that they have a privilege of some sort. But I honestly don't know why they have that reaction.
Really well said. What I was making a hash of explaining a bit further up. The label Male Privilege or anything followed by privilege seems a bit like it is designed to piss some people off. Not me personally, but I can see how it might be taken. Privilege really isn’t the right word in my opinion, especially when applied to being out at night.
privilege
NOUNa special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.
How does that apply to being out and about at night. There is no special right, advantage or immunity. It seems to be more an individual thing from reading through the thread and chatting to colleagues and family today. Some men and women okay with being out at night, some not. Outdoorsy privilege? Perhaps those who are used to it don’t mind it? I’d rather wander round the woods at night than around a town centre.
IdleJon
All three of my daughters do JJ, BJJ and MMA. The eldest got a silver in the Junior World Champs last year, the middle one got gold.
I have nothing to add to this thread as I've been male all my life so know very little of these dilemmas faced by women every day.
But what I will say is you must be one very proud dad IdleJon 🙂
anything followed by privilege seems a bit like it is designed to piss some people off. Not me personally, but I can see how it might be taken.
genuine question - why do you think it seems like that? I just can't see it!
Then you have been watching too much tv and too many movies.
I wonder why you’d think that, croe? The sports she does are all about subduing a larger, possibly armed, opponent normally by choking or limb-locks. If her opponent on the mat taps she’ll release them. If she wanted to she could damage those limbs, or, as happens occasionally in comps, render her opponent unconscious.
Do you doubt her ability to do this in a street fight because she is a girl? Does your misogyny extend that far? Or are you simply saying that a trained martial artist is no use in a fight, male or female?
Anyway, this is OT - because of your selective editing you missed my point completely.
genuine question – why do you think it seems like that? I just can’t see it!
Normally because it appears to be used in an attempt to guilt trip or label a whole bunch of people. Not the best way to go about having a constructive debate imo. Especially when 99% of the group agree with the sentiment expressed. It’s the way it’s put across. Look at that shite, patronising Gillette advert from a few months ago.
But what I will say is you must be one very proud dad IdleJon 🙂
And yes - very. 😁 Not to mention utterly astonished when I realised what they had done. They are both in the Junior Worlds again in two weeks time, so hopefully can repeat or improve on last year. 😁
Edited
Your daughter sound fantastic idle John and I’d be proud as punch too. Best of luck to her with her future in the sport. If it gives her more confidence all the better and more power to her.
Only on STW could a discussion such as this dissolve into a semantics argument.
How does that apply to being out and about at night. There is no special right, advantage or immunity.
In 47 years on this Earth, not once have I walked somewhere on my own at night and worried that I might get dragged down a back alley and raped. I'll wager that if you talk to your wives, girlfriends, sisters and daughters, very few would make the same claim. I think that's quite a privilege regardless of what it might say in a dictionary.
As I'm not a black man in South Africa or America, I can go about my business without fear of being shot at. Privilege or no?
Going to work, I can reasonably expect to be paid the same as my peers. Privilege?
What word do we suggest we use instead, then?
