wherewolves
There wolves!
We’re not debating the fact that women are vulnerable. We’re debating that men are oblivious to how it affects their lives every day.
No we are not, we just don't think its male privilege, rather its issues that affect women. It does not mean we don't care, Just that we object to an incendiary label to describe it.
Everyone is privileged over some others in one way or another. The word has nothing to do with people who don't have that privilege understanding they have that privilege. Its not what privilege means,I think sometimes people should consult the Oxford English dictionary.
Just like women are oblivious to how certain things affect men’s life everyday that they don’t think about is female privilege. But for some reason that narrative doesn’t exist.
Of course there is female privilege in certain scenarios, you can always find a scenario where a privilege exists for pretty much every type of person (colour, race, gender etc,.).
If you want the narrative to exist then start it and we can discuss it. That is nothing to do with a thread about male privilege in the scenario raised on this thread though is it.
Mental health issues and access to treatment/care - all too often the solution is that men need to talk about it more - ie handle it more like women do rather than the solution be tailored to suit men.
Education - young men are being failed by the education system while young women are thriving. This is now showing signs of entering the workplace where young women are overtaking men up until age of 30ish or so.
Homelessness - men living on the fringes with the real threat of being made homelessness every single day. Lack of support compounding this.
Family life - access to their children, family courts etc
Domestic abuse - virtually no support or recognition of the scale of the issue.
all bullshit croe or affects both sexes.
Croe have you the source for your previous assertion?
male privilege in the scenario raised on this thread though is it.
There is no male privilege in the scenario raised on this thread.
A trail at night in the middle of no-where is a total gender leveller.
Sorry kilo I missed your first request. No I don't unfortunately as the source is a close relative doing (what I believe is the first funded) research into this subject at PhD level. There is very little publicy available data breaking down the root causes of suicide or suicide triggers in men. Which is bonkers considering the number of lives lost every year.
Mental health issues and access to treatment/care – all too often the solution is that men need to talk about it more – ie handle it more like women do rather than the solution be tailored to suit men.
If your already 'in the system' female partner came home and revealed how she nearly drove head on into another car on purpose, because she felt she had failed as a wife and a mother(due in part to the pressures of a job where she is trying to survive in a male dominated role despite being more than equal to most of her peers, and simultaneously fulfilling the role of the carer of her child to the 'standatd' of what society seems to expect of a woman who doesn't work), but still can't access necessary mental health provision without going private, you might reassess whether or not the solution is in fact tailored towards either gender.
Domestic abuse – virtually no support or recognition of the scale of the issue.
Again, by underfunded for both genders, but the balance is swinging. Our local authority recently opened some male specific refuge spaces.
As I said, nobody is saying the issues you are raising don't exist, but this is all getting a bit straw man.
I and other men I know have been subject to varying levels of unwanted attention from both men and women out and about. 3/4 of the times for me it was in a kilt, 3/4 of the time it was women. For him I only know of one specific occasion (though there had been others) and it was in a kilt, with a large number of women – but that’s OK cos we’re asking for it if we show a bit of knee, right?
I'm going to take issue with this bit of whataboutery. I've worn a kilt on many occasions and yes been subject to what could be classed as harassment and for the record no I don't think that that's okay. Where my experience differs from that of a woman is that I knew full well that if I became uncomfortable enough I had the means and power to stop things from progressing due to the simple fact of being bigger and stronger that the vast majority of women. That is the "privilege" that I enjoy due simply to being male. I didn't ask for it, I didn't earn it, it's just the way it is. A woman is far less likely to have such an ability to deal with unwanted and inappropriate attention.
So @croe your rationale for male privilege being laughable / those that talk about it being laughable is that many men kill themselves? That's just whataboutery, not a rebuttal.
I'm a white male.
I was abused by an adult in the bath at school.
I've been masturbated at by a stranger in a car park.
My best friend jumped in front of a train just before our A Levels.
I have dark times and have thought about doing the same myself.
In the context of the OP, I still see that I have male privilege and I can see how/why some women become conditioned to being afraid of being out late alone.
Where my experience differs from that of a woman is that I knew full well that if I became uncomfortable enough I had the means and power to stop things from progressing due to the simple fact of being bigger and stronger that the vast majority of women. That is the “privilege” that I enjoy due simply to being male. I didn’t ask for it, I didn’t earn it, it’s just the way it is. A woman is far less likely to have such an ability to deal with unwanted and inappropriate attention.
This
I got unwelcome sexualised comments on my appearance at work ( I'm a nurse remember). Because I have the confidence I tore them a new one for doing so. Much hard for for a woman to do so.
Because I have the confidence I tore them a new one for doing so. Much hard for for a woman to do so.
That is more about confidence than any privilege so again a different topic. My wife is more likely to "tear someone a new one" than I am for example and so is my sister.
So @croe your rationale for male privilege being laughable / those that talk about it being laughable is that many men kill themselves? That’s just whataboutery, not a rebuttal.
It's laughable because for most of its users they cannot admit that if there is such a thing as male privilege then the same can be said of female privilege. But hey misogyny!
Even the users here saying that they have confidence and size to deal with harassment because they are men are not taking into account the likelihood that people freeze in such situations. Do they think only women freeze?
I think this thread would have been better closed at this point.
It's all men need to know about why women don't go out alone at night:
I don’t realistically think that there is a rapist hiding and waiting in the trees on the off chance that a lone woman will appear; it’s just that a woman, alone at night, seems to attract nob-heads. Should you be out by yourself at night every drunk/druggy/nob-head feels that you are clearly desperately lonely and therefore obliged to be their new best friend. Often they can be quite unpleasant and aggressive when you decide to carry on with your planned evening.
Not this shit again!
All those trotting out the "male on male violence" stat. I wonder what percentage of that is alcohol fuel violence, which started as an aggressive argument and someone got 2nd place?
I had the means and power to stop things from progressing due to the simple fact of being bigger and stronger that the vast majority of women.
^This. However, plenty on here discount that simple fact.
Growing up in a fairly rough area, I got into numerous violent confrontations. There is nothing quite as terrifying as someone coming at you who you know is way bigger and stronger and you have no chance.
Man here, I do moderate where and when I go out because since I was 18:
1. Mugged by two guys with machetes in a middle class residential area of Leeds at 10pm.
2. Mugged by two guys on my door step in Liverpool at 9pm.
3. Standing the street talking to a female friend and was punched in the face by a bloke passing by.
4. Had a set of youths try to take my bike while out on a trail - 4pm
5. Had a set of youths try to take my bike while on a canal ride (middle of nowhere) 5pm
6. Just last week a local peak district rider was attached and relieved of his Banshee bike in a very remote area.
I hate to break it to everyone but attacks don't just happen in Urban areas, scum are now waiting on well known trails as they know there is no one there to stop them. Not all blokes are 6ft and well built and are therefore also seen as easy targets.
So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.
Ok so you need time to access the teaching, and actually have a club local enough to be easy to use
Then there are financial implications, nothing is free anymore
Plus you actually have to go out at night, and risk becoming a victim
But to sit back, do nothing pro active about it, then you let the situation dictate to you and its a self fulfilling prophecy
Yes, yoy should not need Jackie Chan levels of kung foo mastery to be able to go about your business safely, ang here comes the big but, in the UK at the moment there are just too many people intent on taking advantage of the vulnerable
Growing up in a fairly rough area, I got into numerous violent confrontations. There is nothing quite as terrifying as someone coming at you who you know is way bigger and stronger and you have no chance.
So where was your male privilege there?
Singletrackmind - Feeling safe at night is not about thinking you could rip some bloke's nuts off if he dropped his trousers it's being able to go out and not worry about blokes who might drop their trousers.
One thing I find fascinating whenever this topic comes up is that some folk who I have argued with strongly over other aspects of social justice / policy / politics etc really get it. But I am disappointing by the number who not only do not understand by try to argue against male privilege being a thing. Mansplaining much?
So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.
Worse than that, some of them wear short skirts.
So where was your male privilege there?
That was generally an exception, however, with male on female violence, this is almost always the rule.
This thread demonstrates a fundamental problem with the human condition and society. An abject inability or unwillingness to empathise with fellow humans from a slightly different group. In this case gender, but see race, nationality, political affiliation, chosen form of commuting vehicle...
The ability to dehumanise those who are a little different to ourselves is one of the most sinister and damaging human traits that we possess.
Well this thread has been a depressing read on the most part.
*So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.*
Wow. Words fail me.
@singletrackmind your post seems to succinctly sum up the entire concept of 'just not getting it'.
Chuffing heck.
This is my take on this and I should mention that I am a male. However, in general,I don't hold my own gender in a very high regard when I look at the world around me.
Anyway...
Family law/ the courts are still very much biased towards the mother. I've had first hand experience of that. Though the laws and bias in place is ironically mainly male imposed.
"Men work, women look after the children."
Provision for mental care in the UK is on its knees due to the general neglect imposed by the Conservatives over many years. It isn't gender specific imo. That said, the appalling rates of male suicide in this country needs addressing and fast.
As a complete pacifist by nature I couldn't punch my way out of a paper bag but at 6 foot tall and fairly big I tend to be left alone most of the time. So it's a "mask" but one most women by nature can't pull off. Does apply to some men too though.
In part my issue with male bias is at a global level. The wars and global power struggles that affect us all at some level tend to be universally instigated by men.
You see this in miniature in most town centres on a Saturday night at closing time.
Try to treat everybody with a bit of respect and compassion irrelevant of gender and you can't go far wrong in life.
It’s laughable because for most of its users they cannot admit that if there is such a thing as male privilege then the same can be said of female privilege. But hey misogyny!
It's entirely possible that there is female privilege in some areas (and there probably is). But that doesn't mean there isn't male privilege in other areas.
I do think much of these arguments are a result of privilege being a very poorly chosen phrase in many cases.
To my mind privileges are things that are neither feasible nor desirable to extend universally. Feeling safe walking alone isn't a privilege by this definition. Feeling unsafe is an issue to be addressed.
To get back to the OP. I still think this sort of issue is more complex than bandying about a trendy 'male privilege' desciption. Take something taht genuinely affects both sexes equally. Riding a bike on a road. Women are (apparently) much more frightened mixing it with traffic, so they cycle less. This isn't because rufty tufty men just bounce off taxis with impunity. It's about perceived risk & attitude to risk.
I don't think the "I'm a bloke so I can handle myself in town" accurately refects the actual risk of assault that males face. It is about their reaction to that threat. Calling it 'male privilege' seems a bit bandwagon jumping to me.
Lego and Imno seem to grasp the reality of the situation more than the bandwagoneers who seem to be scouring the earth in search of things to attribute to "privilege".
Man here, I do moderate where and when I go out because since I was 18:
1. Mugged by two guys with machetes in a middle class residential area of Leeds at 10pm.
2. Mugged by two guys on my door step in Liverpool at 9pm.
3. Standing the street talking to a female friend and was punched in the face by a bloke passing by.
4. Had a set of youths try to take my bike while out on a trail – 4pm
5. Had a set of youths try to take my bike while on a canal ride (middle of nowhere) 5pm
6. Just last week a local peak district rider was attached and relieved of his Banshee bike in a very remote area.
That’s some really shit luck right there. I grew up in an interesting part of West Yorkshire and nothing remotely like that has happened to me. Only 5ft 9” but I’ve been told I look a bit mean.
Buzzwords can tend to derail debates more than anything else. If Male Privilege wasn’t mentioned in the title this might have gone differently I think.
I find it sad and depressing that any woman (or man) feels unsafe or feels they need to plan ahead to do things that some wouldn’t even remotely think about.
Lego and Imno seem to grasp the reality of the situation more than the bandwagoneers who seem to be scouring the earth in search of things to attribute to “privilege”.
The use of a dictionary definition of the word privilege to try to minimise the impact on the lives of women is as idiotic as saying there no such thing as racism as there is no scientific definition of race.
Try to look past the label, afte rall a rose by any other name would smell as sweet or perhaps in this case "a turd by any other name would smell as foul".
Buzzwords can tend to derail debates more than anything else. If Male Privilege wasn’t mentioned in the title this might have gone differently I think.
they can, but that's more of a reflection on those taking umbrage, rather than the 'buzzwords'.
As far as my mum is concerned, 'gay' and 'queer' are both modern lefty buzzwords and she remains dismayed that they're associated with such distasteful stuff as, er, same sex love. And she's not alone. But we shouldn't stop using them based on that kind of reaction.
I sometimes think that for middle-aged blokes we should reframe the nascent concept of intersectional privilege as 'marginal gains'. Small things that can add up over the years to produce a more substantial result.
Turns out most (every?) women feels anxious about going out alone and would never go out alone late or after dark.... next time you’re out alone in the dark by yourself having a good time consider not everyone is able to do so.
I’ve been doing some research recently on a side angle to this, investigating why there is such a disparity between the number of men and women using the outdoors. Where I got to with it was that a large contributing factor was the socialisation of boys and girls, with boys encouraged/allowed to be boisterous and go outdoors (“boys will be boys”) and girls and encouraged to be sweet and passive. I classified these traits into normalised ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ behaviours because they are socialised behaviours/expectations rather than biological ones (there’s another argument about the socialised aspect of binary genders, but now is not the time!). Consequently, some women and men who have not been socialised this way cross the norms, but they are in the minority. This works against men as well as women, because expected behaviours create pressures to behave in a certain way. If anyone wants 4500 words on why adventure is a ‘masculine’ privilege it will hopefully be published soon.
Female privilege. **** my boots, I've heard it all now.
Yes, of course there are areas of life where being female is an advantage. But this is far, far outstripped by the areas where it's an advantage to be male. This is - slowly - changing, and some seem to see this as a threat. For instance,
This is now showing signs of entering the workplace where young women are overtaking men up until age of 30ish or so.
OH MY GOD! We can't have that, can we! It's only been the other way round for hundreds of years, quick, get them all back in the kitchen in between squeezing out babies. Won't somebody think of the men!
Yes, male suicide is a problem. And it's the other cheek of the same arse, boys are told to "man up," to suppress their emotions, to be big and powerful. To be, y'know, privileged.
Yes, domestic violence against men is a problem. One of the biggest issues is that it's under-reported. See the previous paragraph, any guesses as to why this might be the case? What do you reckon the stats are for the gender split here? 50:50?
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Yes, random violence and harassment against men is a problem. But the number of times your average bloke will have been harassed on the streets pales into insignificance compared to how often your average woman will experience it. I can count on the fingers of one foot the number of times I've thought, "wow, I'd feel much safer right now if I was a woman out here on my own." Read some of the other comments here, for many women this is their daily experience. And sure, the fear of attack might be disproportionate to the likelihood of an actual attack, but do you think it's OK to have been driven into thinking that in the first place?
Someone earlier posted about a trail in the woods being a gender leveller. In isolation this may be true, but who do you think might be more likely to be stalked and followed into a remote area? Now, how about if you take the same commute home every day, walk / ride the same trails every night? Of course, the risk is probably still low, you might take the same route somewhere for twenty years and only encounter a nutter once... but it only takes once.
If you cannot or will not see how any of this is a problem, then QED, you are part of the problem I'm afraid.
So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.
All three of my daughters do JJ, BJJ and MMA. The eldest got a silver in the Junior World Champs last year, the middle one got gold.
That doesn’t stop men from staring at the oldest one and making comments, even when I’m with her. She’s 15 ffs. Walking with her Dad! I’m fairly confident that she could put them in hospital very quickly, but why should she? And at what point should she start trying to Bruce Lee four twenty-somethings?
(This happened last Sunday evening.)
The use of a dictionary definition of the word privilege to try to minimise the impact on the lives of women is as idiotic as saying there no such thing as racism as there is no scientific definition of race.
Completely agree. I hope it was obvious that my comment wasn't aiming to do that though.
I'm just saying that when there is a 'right' that we think should be made universal -- like access to clean water, or feeling safe walking down the street -- we shouldn't call those that have that right already 'privileged', just because others don't have it. It's an inflammatory way to go about addressing the issue, as labelling someone privileged normally provokes guilt, and indeed this is typically the intention. What results are unhelpful arguments like that in this thread, rather than constructive debate.
This is compounded by the fact that when labels are applied to whole groups, irrespective of individuals' contexts, some will inevitable get offended/outraged by a label that doesn't describe their experience.
https://medium.com/human-development-project/let-s-stop-talking-so-much-about-privilege-8f9fe543c57e
Oh, and,
The example of divorce is interesting. Yes, the courts will heavily bias the woman here, and I think this is definitely something which needs review and modernisation. But it comes from the time when the man was the breadwinner, it exists to protect the woman from - say it together with me if you like - the male privilege which meant that without a big strong man to look after her she'd be screwed. Penniless, homeless and worthless.
I’m just saying that when there is a ‘right’ that we think should be made universal — like access to clean water, or feeling safe walking down the street — we shouldn’t call those that have that right already ‘privileged’, just because others don’t have it.
The privilege isn't having clean water. The privilege is being in a position where the concept of not having clean water never even crosses your mind.
I think what people are arguing is the incorrect use of the term "male privilege"
There are situations where being a woman definitely puts them at more risk. This is not however male privilege.
There are situations were being a man definitely puts them more at risk. This is not female privilege.
There are advantages and disadvantages that come along with being either gender.
We all need to work on making life as equitable for each other regardless of gender, race or sexual persuasion. Its not a man thing or a woman thing its human thing.
So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.
Police advice is often to not fight back - men and women - for fear of provoking further violence. I am not 100% convinced by this personally. Could a well trained woman stop 4 male boozed up thugs? Or would fighting back just mean more violence?
What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.
Wouldnt it be easier for ****s to stop being ****s?
Had to change my male genetalia swear word to a female one to make the swear filter work
#maleprivilege
I’m fairly confident that she could put them in hospital very quickly
Then you have been watching too much tv and too many movies.
I’m just saying that when there is a ‘right’ that we think should be made universal — like access to clean water, or feeling safe walking down the street — we shouldn’t call those that have that right already ‘privileged’, just because others don’t have it.
er, but....
privilege
NOUN
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.
It’s an inflammatory way to go about addressing the issue, as labelling someone privileged normally provokes guilt, and indeed this is typically the intention.
IMO it is very small group of people who feel guilt when it is suggested that they have a privilege of some sort. But I honestly don't know why they have that reaction.
Really well said. What I was making a hash of explaining a bit further up. The label Male Privilege or anything followed by privilege seems a bit like it is designed to piss some people off. Not me personally, but I can see how it might be taken. Privilege really isn’t the right word in my opinion, especially when applied to being out at night.
privilege
NOUNa special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.
How does that apply to being out and about at night. There is no special right, advantage or immunity. It seems to be more an individual thing from reading through the thread and chatting to colleagues and family today. Some men and women okay with being out at night, some not. Outdoorsy privilege? Perhaps those who are used to it don’t mind it? I’d rather wander round the woods at night than around a town centre.
IdleJon
All three of my daughters do JJ, BJJ and MMA. The eldest got a silver in the Junior World Champs last year, the middle one got gold.
I have nothing to add to this thread as I've been male all my life so know very little of these dilemmas faced by women every day.
But what I will say is you must be one very proud dad IdleJon 🙂
anything followed by privilege seems a bit like it is designed to piss some people off. Not me personally, but I can see how it might be taken.
genuine question - why do you think it seems like that? I just can't see it!
Then you have been watching too much tv and too many movies.
I wonder why you’d think that, croe? The sports she does are all about subduing a larger, possibly armed, opponent normally by choking or limb-locks. If her opponent on the mat taps she’ll release them. If she wanted to she could damage those limbs, or, as happens occasionally in comps, render her opponent unconscious.
Do you doubt her ability to do this in a street fight because she is a girl? Does your misogyny extend that far? Or are you simply saying that a trained martial artist is no use in a fight, male or female?
Anyway, this is OT - because of your selective editing you missed my point completely.
genuine question – why do you think it seems like that? I just can’t see it!
Normally because it appears to be used in an attempt to guilt trip or label a whole bunch of people. Not the best way to go about having a constructive debate imo. Especially when 99% of the group agree with the sentiment expressed. It’s the way it’s put across. Look at that shite, patronising Gillette advert from a few months ago.
But what I will say is you must be one very proud dad IdleJon 🙂
And yes - very. 😁 Not to mention utterly astonished when I realised what they had done. They are both in the Junior Worlds again in two weeks time, so hopefully can repeat or improve on last year. 😁
Edited
Your daughter sound fantastic idle John and I’d be proud as punch too. Best of luck to her with her future in the sport. If it gives her more confidence all the better and more power to her.
Only on STW could a discussion such as this dissolve into a semantics argument.
How does that apply to being out and about at night. There is no special right, advantage or immunity.
In 47 years on this Earth, not once have I walked somewhere on my own at night and worried that I might get dragged down a back alley and raped. I'll wager that if you talk to your wives, girlfriends, sisters and daughters, very few would make the same claim. I think that's quite a privilege regardless of what it might say in a dictionary.
As I'm not a black man in South Africa or America, I can go about my business without fear of being shot at. Privilege or no?
Going to work, I can reasonably expect to be paid the same as my peers. Privilege?
What word do we suggest we use instead, then?
Just talking to my wife about this thread and she told me that my middle daughter’s best friend had to go to give a statement in the police station because a man exposed himself to her on the way home from school last week. She’s 12. No amount of martial arts training will protect her from that.
It's OK, our resident meninists will be along shortly to tell you that women flash their foofs to 12-year old boys all the time too.
(I'm fairly sure I'd have remembered if that had ever happened to me though.)
Only on STW could a discussion such as this dissolve into a semantics argument.
Not just on STW, that's partly why I posted the link I did (written by a female lawyer activist, as it happens). I think this thread is a perfect example of why she wrote what she did. Here it is again.
https://medium.com/human-development-project/let-s-stop-talking-so-much-about-privilege-8f9fe543c57e
Ah, I missed that. Will have a look after tea. Ta.
Do you doubt her ability to do this in a street fight because she is a girl? Does your misogyny extend that far? Or are you simply saying that a trained martial artist is no use in a fight, male or female?
I mean no disrespect to your daughters in this (and I'd say exactly the same if you were referring to a son who was martial arts trained) but street fights are not controlled martial arts affairs, no-one bows from the waist down and plays by the rules and it's not a Jason Statham / Angelina Jolie display of balletic grace and prowess.
It's a ****ing mess with punching, biting, kicking, scratching, glass bottles and one punch from a big bloke WILL take you down.
I'm not saying that a trained martial arts person is no use in a street fight (and note, I'm not the person who posted the first comment questioning their abilities) - I'm sure they'd be far more use in a fight than I would be but a brawl or a sudden attack on an individual out of nowhere is definitely not martial arts.
In the cadets at school, we were taught some "dirty fighting" stuff and the RAF Regiment guys said all of the above and then finished by saying, if you did manage to subdue / injure an assailant enough to get free, you don't hang round and wait for the applause, you don't take your jacket off and square up to them for some more, you **** off sharpish. They were good teachers, very funny. And actually, even back then, they concentrated on helping the girls to defend themselves saying that the style of attack would be different. Man on man was more likely to be plain violence, man on woman was likely to have an eventual motive of sexual assault.
I posted something similar earlier, but removed it. The sad fact is (and I speak from experience that I’m not proud of here) if you want to learn to defend yourself well, you have to be willing to get very, very violent extremely quickly. Most people simply aren’t built that way. This is a good thing. Self defence training can help to a degree, mainly through situational awareness. Fighting as a sport is far removed from the hideous, animalistic shit that happens in a real world violent confrontation. Run away if you can is the soundest advice.
Enjoyed that article Legometeorology
So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.
oh god this is so retarded I can't begin to tell you. How about you just teach your sons not to be so...rapey?
I mean no disrespect to your daughters in this (
Yeah, it’s fine. I know exactly what you mean - but I’d give her more of a chance than me. 😁
funkmasterp, yes avoiding is best. My kids would naturally do that, which is sort of the point. As I said, I was responding to the idiot who thought that women who felt at risk should get BJJ training.
Enjoyed that article Legometeorology
Completely agree and these quotes from it sum things up for me.
Calling these things privileges instead of rights does not take seriously enough what is being denied to people who lack them
We should be angry that some people are denied those basic human rights, but no one should ever feel guilty for having them
And that is why anything followed by privilege is, in my eyes, a rubbish approach to starting a sensible conversation on these matters. The language used makes all the difference.
Thanks for the link. A well written and great article.
funkmasterp, yes avoiding is best. My kids would naturally do that, which is sort of the point. As I said, I was responding to the idiot who thought that women who felt at risk should get BJJ training.
Missed that post thankfully. That’s a very stupid thing for somebody to post.
What if I said there was a country where 85% of the homeless are women, they are given longer prison sentences for the same crimes. 30% less go to university. They die younger and are injured more in their jobs.
You'd probably say that county had a problem.
An interesting perspective on male privilege from transgendered men:
I do notice that some women do expect me to acquiesce or concede to them more now: Let them speak first, let them board the bus first, let them sit down first, and so on. I also notice that in public spaces men are more collegial with me, which they express through verbal and nonverbal messages: head lifting when passing me on the sidewalk and using terms like “brother” and “boss man” to acknowledge me. As a former lesbian feminist, I was put off by the way that some women want to be treated by me, now that I am a man, because it violates a foundational belief I carry, which is that women are fully capable human beings who do not need men to acquiesce or concede to them.
What continues to strike me is the significant reduction in friendliness and kindness now extended to me in public spaces. It now feels as though I am on my own: No one, outside of family and close friends, is paying any attention to my well-being.
I can recall a moment where this difference hit home. A couple of years into my medical gender transition, I was traveling on a public bus early one weekend morning. There were six people on the bus, including me. One was a woman. She was talking on a mobile phone very loudly and remarked that “men are such a–holes.” I immediately looked up at her and then around at the other men. Not one had lifted his head to look at the woman or anyone else. The woman saw me look at her and then commented to the person she was speaking with about “some a–hole on the bus right now looking at me.”
We should be angry that some people are denied those basic human rights, but no one should ever feel guilty for having them
The term isn't meant to make men feel guilty. It's pointing out the advantages that men might not realise they have. You can't avoid it, so there's no requirement for you to feel guilty, you just need to know about it. White privilege also exists, but in that case there might be more that you can do about it.
And that is why anything followed by privilege is, in my eyes, a rubbish approach to starting a sensible conversation on these matters.
I dunno, it makes a point. But the thing is that in trying deny the term you look like you are denying the problem or at least diverting from it.
This is a weird thread. Just about to head out on a night ride. May see you later.
The term isn’t meant to make men feel guilty. It’s pointing out the advantages that men might not realise they have.
Must admit I was about to post that there can’t be many men who wouldn’t realise that women feel they have to be more careful of where they put themselves. Do they not have women in their lives they can talk to? Then I re-read the OP so ho hum maybe the ignorance is more widespread than I would have believed. However it doesn’t alter my belief that calling it ‘privilege’ is counterproductive & an oversimplification of why women feel threatened.
However it doesn’t alter my belief that calling it ‘privilege’ is counterproductive & an oversimplification of why women feel threatened.
Once again somebody does words better than me.
So the concept is accepted, but the label isn’t? Interesting. Couple of questions; why is the label so disagreeable to you, and what would you call the issue in question?
Should you be out by yourself at night every drunk/druggy/nob-head feels that you are clearly desperately lonely and therefore obliged to be their new best friend.
It happens in broad daylight as well, it happens to my g/f on the till at B&M, and the other girls, we were only talking about it earlier this evening.
In the cadets at school, we were taught some “dirty fighting” stuff...
Ah ha - who knew we had an expert in our midst.
So the concept is accepted, but the label isn’t? Interesting. Couple of questions; why is the label so disagreeable to you, and what would you call the issue in question?
Read the linked article, sums it up much more eloquently than I ever could. Labelling these issues as a privilege for those not directly affected as opposed to a right for those that are is the problem imo . Like it or not it’s seen by some, not me but clearly others on this very thread, as apportioning blame. Women have a right to feel safe and that is what we should be fighting for and labelling it as, a right. Calling it a privilege for others is coming at the issue from the wrong direction imo. Just doesn’t seem like the right way to create empathy in people. Just my opinion and I don’t really find the phrasing offensive, I just see how others might.
Read the article, see what you think. It makes a lot more sense than I do.
My daughter is awesome at stuff like that, just the look is enough!!!!
Everyone has the right to be heard, the right to be considered beautiful, the right not to live in fear.
Who makes all these rights up and where are they written down?
In 47 years on this Earth, not once have I walked somewhere on my own at night and worried that I might get dragged down a back alley and raped.
Tell me about your other fears.
So the concept is accepted, but the label isn’t? Interesting. Couple of questions; why is the label so disagreeable to you, and what would you call the issue in question?
Because it misses the point as it is designed to lay guilt on men, if you don't realise that you have been fooled. The very fact we are having this conversation proves it.
When I say it misses the point I mean it should not about what men have or what men can do. We she be focusing in the issues that face women and sorting them out. Even if some of those issues affect men too. It should have nothing to do with what one gender has or can or can't do. We should focus on the issues that are the problem and resolving them.
As for men not understanding or being aware of how some women feel about certain situations is laughable. Of course we do, most of us don't live in an all male boarding school do we.
Because it misses the point as it is designed to lay guilt on men,
Its not designed to have any particular effect and certainly not this one. Its just a nice simple way of stating that men have advantages that women cannot access. Its not just about going out late at night. Its about getting promoted at work, its about earning more for the same job, its about all sorts of issues.
It is male privilege
it misses the point as it is designed to lay guilt on men
Should it not lay guilt towards men? As it is conditioning from predominantly male behaviour that makes females react as in the OP.