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So just bypassing manufacturers .. going back to “a parking app” I’m totally missing why it required a later version of any mobile OS.
Android went through some big changes early on, but now it's a lot more sorted and most stuff now seems to require Android later than 4.3 or thereabouts. Barclays mobile banking app for example requires Android 5 which was released in 2014. I think things have been pretty stable since then. It does require iOS 14 though in Apple land which is from 2020 - is that part of the problem? Is iOS worse for this?
maccruiskeen
I’m guess for anything involving payment info theres an issue with security and whether an older OS is still getting updated and patched
I guess I should have written the longer version ... (I do try and be less verbose)
At the time I had lots of stuff involving payment on the phone. (OK lots being somewhat subjective perhaps but not non) I think at the time I had ApplePay working for example... so it may have been "easier" or "cheaper" (or someone's pet project)
So I'm guessing (based on being in similar meetings and having to keep quiet) someone did their best to gloss over this "requirement" or steer the non IT literate members away from asking
Stevextc - I have just skipped through the thread and I am a little puzzled. Your understanding of tech looks to be far superior than mine, yet I wouldn't be without my smart phone. Its the most useful device I have.
I agree that with an ageing population and the decrease in real banks on the Highstreet and cash then some people will struggle with the tech. However, its just change and improvement, lots of people dont like change as they get older, and I guess the technology has changed within a generation. To me using cash and cards to pay for anything is now alien, I pay for everything using my phone.
I have a bank account on my phone that I've had for 20 odd years, only about £150 in it, I use it for occasional bike purchases. Lloyds never bother me or query me. Our other main bank is only available online and again is simple to use, although their security checks used to be over onerous it is now only face ID which is great.
My parents are in their 80's, occasionally they ask for help on how to do things on computers etc, but once learned it is so simple.
Cougar
It’s also a lot harder to pass on your ticket to someone else when you’re leaving.
I think its better to quote the entire thing matt303uk wrote.
matt303uk
I think NT have changed their parking management provider, around here they’ve pulled all the units out that took cash or contactless and replaced them with cash only with a sign to use an app. I honestly can’t believe they thought an app would be easier that contactless, it’s simply down to putting it out to tender and an app being cheaper hence more profitable than contactless.
As for being fed up of needing a phone for everything, I’m a software dev and so burnt out with tech I have no patience with needing apps for parking, if I can’t pay cash or card I’m not visiting.
So passing the ticket on? Bad requirements gathering... no reason you can't stick in the Reg as well?
but that's really not the top thing is it?
As an organisation they need to consider revenue they lose due to people not having the App.... I don't mean not able to use it or not having their phones I just mean turning up being willing to pay a reasonable fee knowing it's going to the NT seeing you need YES another App and just thinking sod it I'll go park or visit elsewhere that's easier.
This specific occasion I'd arranged to meet people but there is plenty of on street parking in walking, let alone cycling distance. I was happy to pay a reasonable fee knowing it was for the NT... so no more and I no longer arrange to meet people in NT the car park so they miss that revenue as well.
They should also consider reputational cost... not just me and matt303uk but older people (than us even) who see this as alienating them from the NT.
FunkyDunc
Stevextc – I have just skipped through the thread and I am a little puzzled. Your understanding of tech looks to be far superior than mine, yet I wouldn’t be without my smart phone. Its the most useful device I have.
You probably cross posted but read matt303uk's post ^^
I'm certainly burned out from it... but the other part is I've been on both sides of the fence in that I've worked for multi-national companies that are "tech consumers" and multi-national companies that are "tech providers".
In both I've been told to keep my mouth shut or not ask difficult questions when someone is trying to sell something inappropriate to the client/end user or been I've told to modify the requirements to fit a product.
To use a non pure tech example... take "Smart Motorways" ... Lets say theoretically I know a person who made the suggestion or was at least involved to conflate what the UK called Smart Motorways with what Germany calls Smart Motorways (with hard shoulder) and use the stats from the latter to justify the former.
The aim would have been to ensure they could sell the tech regardless... and they would have been under pressure to do so... they may well have then seen the deaths and like me decided to leave the industry but unlike me found something more worthwhile to do with their life.
Mis-selling things is nothing to do with tech, it's been happening since forever. You just saw it happening in tech because that's where you work.
Molgrips
Mis-selling things is nothing to do with tech, it’s been happening since forever. You just saw it happening in tech because that’s where you work.
Well sure, banking doesn't seem to be any better 😉 (or used car sales)
Perhaps why I'm super-wary of the overlap 😉
A little less flippantly - many of the overlaps are about TOS / T&C etc. and pressuring people into something they don't actually want whilst steering them away from reading the TOS and using terminology requires in depth knowledge of a SME level.
I guess an example is PPI - "Do you want the mortgage or not... it comes with PPI or you can go find another provider" vs "do you want to park or not... just download the app and put your card details in"
From an "insider" perspective it feels to me like the tech is being used as a tool for mis selling.
Well you still need to pay for parking, so your is going to get used somewhere.
I can see where you're coming from. I don't have many apps on my phone, those I have are those that make my life useful , without making it a lot more stressful. I have, as well as google stuff, a single parking app that covers most everything in the country I live. It occasionally updates, but it works most everywhere, reliably, and only really needs an update or recheck the security.. once a year. I have a similar app for getting public transport - needs an update once in a blue moon. And a banking app, that allows me to pay other people very fast, needs a security check every now and again. I'm not very hung up on the T&C's, I'm not missold - I need parking or I don't, and this saves money. Ditto the bus
This I have changed - I changed power supplier as they couldn't bill properly, and kept trying to sell me stuff, at a rubbish price. So they get changed, and deleted. I also use a few apps to fast charge my car... ones that don't cause me hassle get a lot more use than ones that are shonky and unreliable rubbish.
I don't have your background, but for me it's a balance of stuff that does what I want, when I want, with a tolerable level of pain (for want of a better word), if they're more hassle I don't want them, and if I don't have them it's a p.i.t.a. also.
Balance
Maybe working in the industries, you have has made you think about things 'tech' too much, or maybe I am just positively happily naive.
My wife wont use her mobile to pay for stuff, I will. She thinks its open to fraud. My thought on that is if the bank are allowing it, then its their risk if it goes wrong.
I dont use 'social media' although I do need it for my sons football club and my cycling club, but I share minimal data (although I appreciate that it may be more than I think)
I was just thinking I dont use many apps. But just looking at my phone there are probably 20 that I use almost daily, all of which make my life simpler or help it.
Back to your point - just go off grid and keep your money under your mattress.... can you still wander over to the council offices to pay council tax?
As an organisation they need to consider revenue they lose due to people not having the App….
If I were a betting man, I'd hazard that NT don't police their parking areas at all. Rather they rely on honesty / donations.
FunckyDunc
Maybe working in the industries, you have has made you think about things ‘tech’ too much, or maybe I am just positively happily naive.
probably both ... Molgrips isn't wrong saying I see overselling and misrepresenation etc. in the industry I worked in.
My wife wont use her mobile to pay for stuff, I will. She thinks its open to fraud.
Yes and no... at one end anything connected to the internet... at the other way less than contactless assuming it requires a passcode/fingerprint/face recognition.
My thought on that is if the bank are allowing it, then its their risk if it goes wrong.
Well, there will be some legislation... (I haven't read) and T&C etc. but its also a question of how inconvenient it being blocked is (you might be paid back eventually but the process may be more or less unpleasant)... and the more you have especially you don't understand the more you open yourself to scams or fraud. (I often get scams pertaining to be from banks I don't have... not only the one I do... which makes these somewhat easier to spot)
My mum had some scam and by chance I was visiting her but she was in tears dealing with the bank security.
I was just thinking I dont use many apps. But just looking at my phone there are probably 20 that I use almost daily, all of which make my life simpler or help it.
If your happy then no reason not to....
Back to your point – just go off grid and keep your money under your mattress….
Well I was looking to stay a step away from that.... e.g low tech solution / pre paid card etc.
can you still wander over to the council offices to pay council tax?
Not according to my council website... but someone said you could so its possible they are just not advertising it but have to or one council are less pushy than mine???
Well my In-Laws have smart phones but apart from WhatsApp almost no Apps. They use Halifax for banking after they fell out with Lloyds (Lloyds ended up paying a lot of money for their actions)
Apart from email and the very occasional WhatsApp message that's the extent of their online activity.
Yes they do drive 6 miles to the Halifax branch but they live in a small South Cotswolds village and they do their food shopping on the same trip, they also have an account at a local garage for petrol/diesel, that they settle up every month by cheque. So yes its easily possible to not do banking online for the present time. But that would be my worst nightmare as I have averted a few cockups/overcharging situations by having my phone alert me of every transaction. It also makes paying people a lot less stressful & saves me hours of time and money.
But if you want to do it the low tech way, for now it seems possible.
Branch coverage can also be regional. Near us HSBC are quite good in small towns but my partner is RBS and not one for 50 miles.
HSBC you don't need a app. I use a dongle.
If you want to reduce tech your best bet is to have a smart phone or tablet to use for banking but no data or contract. Keep it in a draw like dongle. Don't use it for anything else. Use a basic non smart phone for actually carrying around.
can you still wander over to the council offices to pay council tax?
Not according to my council website… but someone said you could so its possible they are just not advertising it but have to or one council are less pushy than mine???
I wonder, does the oft-misunderstood notion of 'legal tender' apply here? If (IF) council tax is considered to be a debt then they cannot refuse a cash payment. AFAIK anyway.
I will add admire your aim and I don't like the infiltration of apps either. I try and use a computer rather than apps where possible.
As my previous post I think the mid way is the phone / tablet in a draw solution. Keep it for admin and minimal use.
The Brick
I will add admire your aim and I don’t like the infiltration of apps either. I try and use a computer rather than apps where possible.
As my previous post I think the mid way is the phone / tablet in a draw solution. Keep it for admin and minimal use.
That's not a bad shout ... indeed I got an Amazon deal tablet (£20-£30?? I think) a few months ago to use as an appliance.
Honestly, I think you're taking 2 minute jobs and turning them into tedious half-day long excursions that involve identification papers and travelling and the like.
The jobs are always depressing - do them the fastest most convenient way you can. 5 minutes of depression to pay your council tax is better than finding your ID papers, riding to <wherever> for 30 minutes, locking your bike up, standing in a queue whilst worrying if someone's going to nick your bike, talking to someone who'll be saying "why don't you pay online? Have you tried paying online? Online is the most convenient method! Here - let me give you some information about how to pay online!", before handing over all your ID, waiting whilst it's checked, hoping you've got everything (and there'll be times you won't). "Do you want me to email you the receipt?"
By by walking into a branch and doing the do there you're still accepting the "t's&c's" - it's just that they don't read them to you.
Honestly. You'll be happier if you stop raging against the machine.
Honestly. You’ll be happier if you stop raging against the machine.
Some people do just like finding reasons to be unhappy....
I will add admire your aim and I don’t like the infiltration of apps either. I try and use a computer rather than apps where possible.
out of interest, how do you see that as being different?
out of interest, how do you see that as being different?
Im here for this answer. whats meant by "infiltration"? With bio and face id the phone is way more secure and any sort of tracking done on the phone will be done on a website too.
I mean, you call it a phone, but it’s computer with a phone app. And the for most the phone app is one that probably gets used the least..
chevychase
The jobs are always depressing – do them the fastest most convenient way you can. 5 minutes of depression to pay your council tax is better than finding your ID papers, riding to <wherever> for 30 minutes, locking your bike up, standing in a queue whilst worrying if someone’s going to nick your bike, talking to someone who’ll be saying “why don’t you pay online? Have you tried paying online? Online is the most convenient method! Here – let me give you some information about how to pay online!”, before handing over all your ID, waiting whilst it’s checked, hoping you’ve got everything (and there’ll be times you won’t). “Do you want me to email you the receipt?”
Worst bit is the "worrying if someone’s going to nick your bike" - the rest is a lot less so due mainly to me doing it like overshoots inlaws but on a bike.
I actual enjoy doing stuff manually ... and sometimes its more convenient. [turning something on rather than finding a remote type convenient]
Another way I see it is I can cycle to the council offices (for example) maybe do some other stuff or I could use some App whilst I'm cycling on an indoor trainer ??
The worrying about someone nicking the bike I'm addressing separately as a council tax payer (perhaps ironically)
but someone said you could so its possible they are just not advertising it
Lots of councils don't want to do this because...High Street banks are disappearing. If you go to a council with a cheque or cash money, someone then has to go to a physical bank and pay it in...They have the same issue we all have, that's it's becoming very difficult to do.
'to use as an appliance.'
That , I think, might be the best way to view a phone.
Another way I see it is I can cycle to the council offices (for example) maybe do some other stuff
I guess it then comes down to how "rural" you see your future location. I think it's a 50 mile round trip to any council building where I could hand over cash. I could try to combine that with other reasons to go there but that would most likely start to involve a car rather than a bike and I try to drive as little as possible.
jam-bo
out of interest, how do you see that as being different?
I mean, you call it a phone, but it’s computer with a phone app. And the for most the phone app is one that probably gets used the least..
Short and perhaps flippant answer... I don't turn up on on a ride and someone expects I have my laptop
Longer answer .. for me it's the expectation that I have a phone, it's turned on and I'm happy to carry it about and be contacted one way or another .... and because of that expectation that I'm happy to download and configure some App to do a (often one off) task then either have to delete it or manage it somehow.
A perhaps extreme example (but I'm using it because it wraps a lot up) is I'm sat in a field with a small group (6 or 7) of other parents having carried BBQ's/Gazebo's and the like to volunteer my time (and Gazebo)to a fund raising Fete.
After 1/2 hour we start wondering WTF ... there should be 30-40 parents and some teachers and stuff... after an hour someone turns their phone on and calls the head teacher to be told "Oh we cancelled it on Facebook, you should have seen it".
Neither myself or any of the others volunteered to use/see/install and agree to TOS for Facebook**... no-one made it clear that it was expected the communications by email or in person asking us to volunteer were no longer used because implicitly we must have FB and "Follow and Like" the school and instead I'm meant to sign up to a social media website and check that and when they decide on another mode of communication I'm meant to adopt that as well?
I think I remember this one as it was the first time perhaps I was blamed for not having a specific bit of tech/App/Social median as in "it's your fault you didn't know its cancelled you should have checked FB".
I mean it could have been FB/Twitter/WhatsApp or whatever .... but it seems people (me) are expected to just adopt and mix and match Apps and stuff and have communication spread across platforms based on some whims.
joepud
Im here for this answer. whats meant by “infiltration”? With bio and face id the phone is way more secure and any sort of tracking done on the phone will be done on a website too.
I can't answer for the Brick but above is what I see as App infiltration.
This pressure to download another App... to fix a problem I don't have or to invent a term "marketing by exclusion" by which I mean getting others to make someone miss out if they don't adopt your platform/App etc.
With bio and face id the phone is way more secure and any sort of tracking done on the phone will be done on a website too.
That depends what you call secure... you certainly have an illusion of security if you think access to your phone and your data is controlled by bio and face id. At your end the phone is locked and secured to you.. until you do some bio/face ID thing it's still sharing your data with the rest of the world as permission has been granted to Apps that "require" or not this data to work.
If you ever use a properly MDM secured device you'll realise how little works when services are only enabled by exception that have to be justified... this has proven to be a pain in the arse for some like Suella when she wants to share confidential and secret information with a mates wife for example.
(I'm using that as an illustration... I'm not condoning her actions.)
This is another aspect of the "infiltration" through the "marketing by exclusion".
We get cooerced into accepting TOS or sharing data we probably wouldn't given consideration because we are urged to "use this app" or "use that platform" in order not to be excluded.
Oh we cancelled it on Facebook, you should have seen it
How would you have preferred to have been told?
I think you are starting off from a negative premise here - that apps are bad, and that you are objecting to them becoming prevalent. But if you see them as a positive thing, then their prevalence is also positive.
For example, in your barbecue example, without some kind of bulk messaging platform someone would have had to ring round all the participants (and have their numbers) individually and either speak to them and leave a message. This is much more work for the organiser and also a lot more intrusive for those being called. The app in this case should have made life easier. I agree that FB isn't necessarily the best platform for this though because many people have privacy concerns. WhatsApp is better for this.
Of course, they should have made it clear that the barbecue would be arranged on a specific platform beforehand rather than just assumed, but that's not the app's fault.
someone would have had to ring round all the participants (and have their numbers) individually and either speak to them and leave a message.
But that still mandates the ownership and use of a telephone. Why should someone be forced into that? Surely the correct approach would have been to despatch a series of messengers round all of the participants.
nickc
Lots of councils don’t want to do this because…High Street banks are disappearing. If you go to a council with a cheque or cash money, someone then has to go to a physical bank and pay it in…They have the same issue we all have, that’s it’s becoming very difficult to do.
So they could have a card reader ???
There are lots of easy and simple ways to solve this.
I live in a seperate "sub town" as it were... we have our own (dying) neighbourhood shopping centre(s) etc. and I think counter intuitively amazon lockers and click and collect have actually increased footfall.
Molgrips
How would you have preferred to have been told?
Scotroutes already answered 😉
..I'll jump to the end and answer backwards
I think you are starting off from a negative premise here – that apps are bad, and that you are objecting to them becoming prevalent. But if you see them as a positive thing, then their prevalence is also positive.
For example, in your barbecue example, without some kind of bulk messaging platform someone would have had to ring round all the participants (and have their numbers) individually and either speak to them and leave a message. This is much more work for the organiser and also a lot more intrusive for those being called. The app in this case should have made life easier. I agree that FB isn’t necessarily the best platform for this though because many people have privacy concerns. WhatsApp is better for this.
Of course, they should have made it clear that the barbecue would be arranged on a specific platform beforehand rather than just assumed, but that’s not the app’s fault.
So working backwards a bit...
Yes... they should have made it clear not just assumed everyone would have FB and actually be "following"
How to inform people? Well to be blunt that's her problem ... she was asking for a day of parents time to raise money and I would have had better things to do than spend it in a field selling lucky dip... let alone her deciding to cancel it because she suddenly had something better to do. TBH I can't remember if it was a Sat or Sun but I'm pretty sure the reason wasn't "weather" or "illness" etc.... (I'm not even sure a reason was actually given?)
The lists of who was bringing what and doing what were all organised by email so sending an email and asking for a reply to confirm receipt would seem a first step and then get on a bike and go and put a note under the door if anyone didn't reply.
Just to add some detail she didn't tell the caretaker (or whoever had got up and gone and unlocked the gates).... or any of the parents/grandparents who'd seen the posters or fliers and presumably turned up after...
she thought some post on social media was good enough.
One point here is switching communications platforms... if you start on one then keep to it. Especially you have asked people for their valuable time .. I view it as extremely rude not to even both sending an email... I guess it might have meant her getting up and turning on a computer or even going into school or something... was there time to send notes homes with kids dunno??
Someone had been and unlocked the gates... I wasn't the first to arrive so I assume the caretaker?
FB/WhatApp .. whatever... it's still making an assumption I'm OK with the TOS of that platform.
I think you are starting off from a negative premise here – that apps are bad, and that you are objecting to them becoming prevalent. But if you see them as a positive thing, then their prevalence is also positive.
It's not the specific App or perhaps even Apps. Someone will decide and then start telling others what they should use. (I happen to agree WhatsApp would be better but that's not the point)
Its the assumption I'd actually use it or check it or even want to carry or turn on a phone at any specific time/place or use AND MANAGE a specific platform/app etc. or have a smartphone at all.
They are all intermixed and as much as anything its the behaviours around them.
I go back to the appliance and my camera thing. I don't turn up on a ride and someone expects I have a pro camera. It doesn't require maintenance and updates (other than keeping battery health) .. etc. etc.
I can turn just it off or not take it and no consequences .. so it's being used as an appliance I can use or not.
There are obviously some advantages to Apps/Smartphones... but for me there are some red lines mainly around behaviours and for me these far far outweigh the advantages. I don't want "we sent a notification" type stuff, I want to be able to turn off my phone for a month if I like.
she was asking for a day of parents time to raise money and I would have had better things to do than spend it in a field selling lucky dip
Well I was going to say I'm sure she did too, but it turns out she apparently went and did that instead. But let's assume she had a good reason - she'd planned to give up her day just as you had for the same altruistic reasons, so not really her problem - more like all of yours. But yes, of course she handled it badly for a variety of non-app-related reasons. As for email - that is pull messaging i.e. you check it when you want to, not push messaging where it pings you. You may object to push messaging but sometimes a message needs to be transmitted urgently. A phone call after all is a push message.
I want to be able to turn off my phone for a month if I like.
But you still want to be able to use all the services that are done through phones - for many good reasons. That's like saying you don't want to start your car for a month but you still want to drive places. Everything is a compromise.
but for me there are some red lines mainly around behaviours
Hmm an interesting point. Do phones enable more people to behave badly than before, in new ways? Perhaps. But then, people have been behaving badly for millennia haven't they?
I don’t want “we sent a notification” type stuff, I want to be able to turn off my phone for a month if I like.
Then how do you want to be told of things about which you need to know?
OP is modern day Jason Bourne?
It would be quite hard work to live in modern world without smart phones apps and without leaving digital footprints.
…. and because of that expectation that I’m happy to download and configure some App to do a (often one off) task then either have to delete it or manage it somehow.
Two things here:
1) This is a 'managing expectations' issue. I carry a phone for my benefit, not for everyone else's. I'm not at your beck and call.
2) Kinda related to the above is a self-control issue. If the phone rings and it's not convenient for me to answer it, I'll ignore it and check it later. My OH is terrible for this, we'll be watching a film or something, the damn phone will be buzzing constantly and she'll dive on it and start worrying at a reply every time. "But it might be important!" Honey, I'm fairly sure that no-one ever went "help, the house is on fire" via text message. Drives me insane.
A perhaps extreme example (but I’m using it because it wraps a lot up) is I’m sat in a field with a small group (6 or 7) of other parents having carried BBQ’s/Gazebo’s and the like to volunteer my time (and Gazebo)to a fund raising Fete.
After 1/2 hour we start wondering WTF … there should be 30-40 parents and some teachers and stuff… after an hour someone turns their phone on and calls the head teacher to be told “Oh we cancelled it on Facebook, you should have seen it”.
This is nothing to do with the technology, it's just poor communication. The head equally could have put a sign up on the Church noticeboard and made the same argument. As you say yourself, switching channels was the problem here. If they'd told you they were using Facebook for further updates then you'd have had the opportunity to communicate that you're not on Facebook; I doubt you'd have been the only one.
How to inform people? Well to be blunt that’s her problem …
It's not, though, is it. It may be her responsibility, but it's your problem when you're the one sat in a field on your own.
--
in your barbecue example, without some kind of bulk messaging platform someone would have had to ring round all the participants (and have their numbers) individually and either speak to them and leave a message.
Wouldn't have worked, Steve said "After 1/2 hour... someone turns their phone on" so presumably they were all sat there incommunicado.
sounds like he's "found his tribe" though, as they say 😃Steve said “After 1/2 hour… someone turns their phone on” so presumably they were all sat there incommunicado.
(Meanwhile everyone else was off enjoying their weekend 😉)
When I was a kid I once cycled a long way on a sub-zero morning in my normal clothes to meet a 'friend' at a location near his house, so he could guide me the last few miles. He didn't show up, leaving me sat freezing on a bench for an hour before riding back home again. No phone apps were involved. If I'd had a phone I'd have WhatsApped him. Actually no, if I'd had a phone I'd have used Google Maps to find his address and cycled directly there.
It’s not the specific App or perhaps even Apps. Someone will decide and then start telling others what they should use. (I happen to agree WhatsApp would be better but that’s not the point)
Its the assumption I’d actually use it or check it or even want to carry or turn on a phone at any specific time/place or use AND MANAGE a specific platform/app etc. or have a smartphone at all.
Yet you're perfectly fine with email as a communication medium? Something which is very easy to simply not check (unless you have an app on your phone with push notifications enabled but, well, here we are again...)
Fundamentally, you want something that isn't intrusive which is fair enough, yet are describing a real-world scenario where you needed something to intrude briefly in order to notify you of the change of plans. You can't complain about a lack of communication when you're actively going out of your way to be as unreachable as possible.
And, a note through everyone's door, really? You seriously think that's a valid alternative to a quick "message to all" which would take seconds from someone who may be ill in bed? That's veering dangerously into the realms of you never being invited to anything ever again because you're too much like hard work.
If the phone rings and it’s not convenient for me to answer it, I’ll ignore it and check it later. My OH is terrible for this, we’ll be watching a film or something, the damn phone will be buzzing constantly and she’ll dive on it and start worrying at a reply every time. “But it might be important!” Honey, I’m fairly sure that no-one ever went “help, the house is on fire” via text message. Drives me insane.
https://images.app.goo.gl/CPYgXvPgk5dnCise7
Molgrips ...
I seem to need to answer these all backwards ...
Then how do you want to be told of things about which you need to know?
In general I don't want to be required to "need to know"... or to put another way I'd like to minimise the things that others decide I need to know and how I find out or take some action or inaction if I don't.
For example the fete has been advertised on posters and fliers... presumably because they recognised many people wouldn't have known if they just stuck it on FB and they'd be losing money...
In general these "need to know" things seem to disadvantage me or certainly don't overlap well with what I would have wanted to know..
if I might give an example of a notification you just paid for another year subscription for example whereas what I'd have wanted to know is a link to cancel my subscription in plenty of time or even better a "back up your data and unsubscribe".
So I'm not so naive as to think that's actually going to happen.... so instead I'd rather just cancel all these subscriptions and remove the need to be notified they just took some money off me.
(Yeah, I just paid for this thing I didn't actually want for another year... but you and I know in another year we'd be in the same place so just cancel it now) {that's a helpful hint hopefully}
So having got rid of this information overload we (I REALLY REALLY doubt this is just me and you if people were honest) end up with far less of this "need to be informed" stuff and we can then prioritise other stuff (like Tax submissions, council tax etc. all that stuff we get fined for)
So that aside though...the kid came home from cadets yesterday saying "Your being sent an email with a link to pay for my smock" ... and indeed I did and a very nice email it was saying how he's a credit to me and had explained it would be better if they just sent me a link not used the App. [I'm not sure what he'd said exactly but he'd been aside and explained and done so in a very nice manner by all accounts]
Hmm an interesting point. Do phones enable more people to behave badly than before, in new ways? Perhaps. But then, people have been behaving badly for millennia haven’t they?
Not just phones but perhaps centred around them.
So yeah to take a random example ... sure people have been bullying others for more than millennia but the ease and enablement of cyberbullying (at least to me) seems exponentially larger ..
But yes, of course she handled it badly for a variety of non-app-related reasons. As for email – that is pull messaging i.e. you check it when you want to, not push messaging where it pings you. You may object to push messaging but sometimes a message needs to be transmitted urgently. A phone call after all is a push message.
The difference (IMHO) is the degree of depersonalisation.
At one end she turns up or get someone else to, apologises to whoever got up to unlock and at the other she "posts something"
(Reminds me of the interview with Hislop and Merton)
"What if you make a plan"
"Erm.. you turn up"
Equally and not limited to but again easier to depersonalise...
In general I don’t want to be required to “need to know”… or to put another way I’d like to minimise the things that others decide I need to know and how I find out or take some action or inaction if I don’t.
Ok but in that case you shouldn't have agreed to be involved in organising the barbecue. I mean I understand the need, but you need to understand your own limitations here. This is why I rarely do stuff like that.
Information overload I can understand. I mean, I'm very good at ignoring stuff - too good, in fact - but I can understand how you wouldn't be. That's a thing about modern life though. Back when I was a kid we had utility bills, a phone bill and a TV license. Now, we have those things and a huge list of other services to subscribe to and manage, with all the associated marketing and demands. But those things are all opt-in, I chose to subscribe because of the benefits they give. And yes, I can ignore the emails that they send. Netflix wants to send me notifications, but I said no - and this is done at the phone OS level so there's nothing they can do about it.
Yes, it's work to get life the way you want it, but once done it should stay that way. Each thing you subscribe to, you manage it and make it work the way you want - then forget about it.
Cougar
Yet you’re perfectly fine with email as a communication medium? Something which is very easy to simply not check (unless you have an app on your phone with push notifications enabled but, well, here we are again…)
Yes and No.... literally "pick one" but preferably one doesn't require a proprietary app with TOS I have to read, keep maintained and updated etc.
As you say elsewhere " If they’d told you they were using Facebook for further updates then you’d have had the opportunity to communicate that you’re not on Facebook; I doubt you’d have been the only one."
Yep.. depending by what "on facebook" means... (as in not active) and she could have gone and found other volunteers... same for Tik-sta-gram .. Teams etc. Sorry not using/installing find someone else if using that channel/platform is more important to you than volunteers.
Fundamentally, you want something that isn’t intrusive which is fair enough, yet are describing a real-world scenario where you needed something to intrude briefly in order to notify you of the change of plans. You can’t complain about a lack of communication when you’re actively going out of your way to be as unreachable as possible.
As I said answering Molgrips... minimise it. If its **NEEDED** (someone's texting your GF that their house is burning down) but it's a case of "digital overload". don't for want of a better way to put it send a Email with subject URGENT ACTION REQUIRED and expect I'm amused when it's content is please choose your favourite colour..
or for a matter send an email (or letter) from pension company saying "URGENT LAST CHANCE" if it isn't....
And, a note through everyone’s door, really? You seriously think that’s a valid alternative to a quick “message to all” which would take seconds from someone who may be ill in bed? That’s veering dangerously into the realms of you never being invited to anything ever again because you’re too much like hard work.
Maybe I miswrite or you misread.. letter under door of people didn't reply to the email.
As for not being invited I made it pretty clear I didn't want to be invited to volunteer for anything if leaving people stood in a field is not even worthy of an apology.
Steve said “After 1/2 hour… someone turns their phone on” so presumably they were all sat there incommunicado.
We spent 1/2 hour putting up gazebos and stuff... who had phones switched on and who didn't I don't know TBH and I've forgotten what the excuse was but I'm 100% sure she wasn't ill nor it was the weather.
Kinda related to the above is a self-control issue. If the phone rings and it’s not convenient for me to answer it, I’ll ignore it and check it later. My OH is terrible for this, we’ll be watching a film or something, the damn phone will be buzzing constantly and she’ll dive on it and start worrying at a reply every time. “But it might be important!” Honey, I’m fairly sure that no-one ever went “help, the house is on fire” via text message. Drives me insane.
Some people are better at this than others....
In my case I've had a employer sending email at 0200 in the morning, CC'd to "The world" demanding why I haven't answered or filled out and submitted some form whilst I'm flying 10 mins later.
Why are you so obsessed with Terms of Service?
Yes and No…. literally “pick one” but preferably one doesn’t require a proprietary app with TOS I have to read, keep maintained and updated etc.
Sure. But if instead they'd emailed you, would you have noticed in time?
don’t for want of a better way to put it send a Email with subject URGENT ACTION REQUIRED and expect I’m amused when it’s content is please choose your favourite colour..
Has that ever happened in the history of like the last 30 years? All of these apps you're railing against supplanted that sort of nonsense via email decades ago.
Maybe I miswrite or you misread.. letter under door of people didn’t reply to the email.
OK, but the point stands. You're the one talking about expectations, do you think that it's a reasonable expectation of yours to have someone to hand-write notes (after all, we can't expect everyone to have a printer) and then drive who knows how far around town popping them through letterboxes for no other reason than you're too obstinate to accept any other form of communication?
In my case I’ve had a employer sending email at 0200 in the morning
So have I. So what? I'm not on call, I'll read it when I'm in work later.
I almost certainly wouldn't have noticed until the following morning anyway, unless they'd emailed my personal account and I was still up from the night before. My work phone gets switched off or at least put on silent when I'm not in work and I don't take any communications devices into the bedroom.
Why are you so obsessed with Terms of Service?
I'm not obsessed, I just read any legal contract before agreeing to it.
Has that ever happened in the history of like the last 30 years?
I've had "FINAL CHANCE - PEASE CONFIRM YOUR DETAILS NOW" from pension. Then in the body "You have 2 weeks to respond"
to provide information they already had. (Happens to be on my desk as I type)
OK, but the point stands. You’re the one talking about expectations, do you think that it’s a reasonable expectation of yours to have someone to hand-write notes (after all, we can’t expect everyone to have a printer) and then drive who knows how far around town popping them through letterboxes for no other reason than you’re too obstinate to accept any other form of communication?
School selection is distance from gate in a straight line and its not far.... but either way she changed the plans of lots of parents so she needs (is Responsible and Accountable) to Inform having skipped Consult.
TBH can't remember what her excuse was but I was far from the only one thought it was bollocks.
If I said it was because she had an important meeting the next day and her personal stylist was a bit booked up and she didn't want to have to use a different stylist it would be that sort of level of excuse. (I'm not even sure I know what it was.. lots of parents were furious including those who did see the FB post and talk at school gates)
Quite honestly I don't think she would have dared to do that F2F.... but behind the anonymity of a FB post
I almost certainly wouldn’t have noticed until the following morning anyway
Yep by which time its been escalated in other continents and you are on a formal warning and PIP
Yep by which time its been escalated in other continents and you are on a formal warning and PIP
If that really is the case, which I doubt, then your employer is just utterly crap in more ways than one....
It's not normal to be expected to read emails / notice SMSes at 2 in the morning unless you are specifically paid to be at work (or on call) at that time.
Obviously I don't know you from Adam, but the pop phycologist in me would suggest a diagnosis of techno-phobia which seems to be affecting your quality of life as you seem to spend way too much time worrying about things (like Terms or Service which only lawyers read). You seem to be inventing problems to then worry about. Some CBT might go a long way to resolving your problems.
I have nothing to add other than this thread is brilliant. The idea that a person/people are willing to neglect tech to make their lives harder is crazy life is too short to waste on this stuff. But i guess while you're in a line waiting for a bank to open or be seen at least you have time to kill so can read all those terms of services to decide if you want to use an app or not. I have never read a terms of service in my life thats just long.
All appreciated ... I guess this is the whole thing.
Yes, it’s work to get life the way you want it, but once done it should stay that way. Each thing you subscribe to, you manage it and make it work the way you want – then forget about it.
You set it up and then didn't cancel... then later feel shit because you didn't?
Information overload I can understand. I mean, I’m very good at ignoring stuff – too good, in fact – but I can understand how you wouldn’t be. That’s a thing about modern life though. Back when I was a kid we had utility bills, a phone bill and a TV license. Now, we have those things and a huge list of other services to subscribe to and manage, with all the associated marketing and demands. But those things are all opt-in, I chose to subscribe because of the benefits they give. And yes, I can ignore the emails that they send. Netflix wants to send me notifications, but I said no – and this is done at the phone OS level so there’s nothing they can do about it.
I'll unpick as best I can ...
Yep but NetFlix is one thing (not mission critical) but banking is another.
Back when I was a kid we had utility bills, a phone bill and a TV license. Now, we have those things and a huge list of other services to subscribe to and manage, with all the associated marketing and demands. But those things are all opt-in, I chose to subscribe because of the benefits they give. And yes, I can ignore the emails that they send.
Yeah but the banking Apps are something I want to opt-out (as much as I can) because then I can't ignore the notifications...
Cougar keeps asking why I'm obsessed with TOS/T&C etc. and one reason is I keep getting screwed over on them.
I'm the sort of person (maybe you are) that gets bike insurance and gets the Gold/Platinum lock then when it comes to claim the fine print say's you need proof of purchase of the lock.. its not good enough to just have it and even have a photo of the bike using it... and the cut lock etc. because they are saying "you should have reads the T&C's"
So .. I can (to take this example) eventually find a bike policy and satisfy myself .. to the policy and to some extent check at renewal something material hasn't changed
Apps.. just keep changing the TOS and T&C's... and have dependencies (such as OS and OS updates).
At some point some TOS or something will change and I'll have another account hacked or something and I'll not have complied with the TOS.
So here's the thing on the pension letter... the "FINAL CHANCE - PLEASE CONFIRM YOUR DETALS BELOW" one.
It's actually got a handwritten note on it saying "By phone 4 Dec - letter in post in 30 days" which strongly makes me thing I called the number on 4 Dec and was told I'd be receiving a letter by 3rd Jan (excluding XMAS post)
Obviously I didn't... or did it mean I had to submit some letter by post within 30 days... (I don't think so but not 100%) so regardless I kicked myself up the ass after your link (thank you) and called them again and got a email/set up and have access. So I screwed up... should have got back to them...
Now I know which pension this actually is it reveals ANOTHER screw up... me failing to check.
I got offered through company some pension advice setting this up... I should obviously have checked the costs involved and didn't. (I think I'd assumed it was paid by the company)... turns out it cost me something like an entire YEAR of contributions to get what was it turned out a phone call to recommend a "personalise plan" and to add insult to injury the individual plan is set up for someone with the last 2 digits in my birthdate transposed so nearly 2 decades younger than me.
So I guess what I'm saying is I don't trust myself to keep up to date .... I'll screw up on the app... not do something required/mandated and get screwed again.
Equally.. when I say I want to turn my phone off for a month and not suffer consequences (i.e. App telling me I must do this or that) I mean I want that to be possible not that is what I want to do. More to the point I think I really mean I want to be able to ignore the banking app... and other similar stuff rather than switch the phone off completely.
So all those new things beyond TV license, utility bills, a phone bill (and tax) I just want as minimal/optional as possible. I don't want them tied to an app... because if someone can screw them up it will be me.