this isnt about justice
its about politicians subverting the judicary, which is supposed to be independent.
all done to save face after
a) mindlessly cutting a swathe of services during a recession with no idea of the impact this would have
b) spending 3 days sipping chianti in tuscany while your country burnned
c) and generaly being utterly clueless on how to really fix the problems exposed
Seizing the opportunity to burgle shops in the perceived safety of a mob is slightly different to deciding to travel at 80mph on the M6 at 6am on a sunny Sunday morning.
Stealing some water from a shop already broken into is a very low-level offence in the context of the riots overall. 80mph on a quiet motorway is a very low-level offence in the context of motoring offences overall.
I agree. The circumstances in these cases were extraordinary.
Individual circumstances were not extraordinary. Judge each case on its own merits.
kimbers - Memberthis isnt about justice
No, this is about fairly urgent crime prevention in the short-term.
Anybody who was not involved and isn't considering looting the High St need not worry themselves about it.
This is not about infringements on civil liberties or the UK becoming a Police State.
I like living in the UK, but I'd prefer it if people did not trash it. If people do trash it, then punish them. Harshly.
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/17/england-riots-harsher-sentences-deterrent ]relevant grauniad article[/url]
No, this is about fairly urgent crime prevention in the short-term.
really? the riots/looting stopped several days before any sentences were handed down, its just politicking now
I like living in the UK, but I'd prefer it if people did not trash it. If people do trash it, then punish them. Harshly.
I would like people to be caught and punished in a way that is commensurate with the crimes that they have committed. That is not what's happening right now.
Individual circumstances were not extraordinary. Judge each case on its own merits.
The point is that the offences occurred because many people decided to join-in with the mob. The crimes were not isolated incidents, there was a context.
Simple f'rinstance
Bloke 1 - burns down a garage that belongs to a business rival
Bloke 2 - EDL member burns down a Mosque on 10th anniversary of 9/11
Should they be sentenced the same? commensurate with the sentencing guidelines for Arson - or is it reasonable for the latter be sentenced in a punitive and exemplary manner which recognises the wider context of the crime and the potential knock on effects?
kimbers - MemberNo, this is about fairly urgent crime prevention in the short-term.
really? the riots/looting stopped several days before any sentences were handed down, its just politicking now
Oh dear....
I suspect that most people in the UK would prefer not to see people trashing the place again any time soon.
Obviously, some other people are less concerned.
I wasn't aware that public punishment was restricted to medieval coporal punishment and the interrogation methods of witch-finders, but there you go.
I often get bored when I see the same sh1t going round and round and round, and then I just start playing, because it doesn't matter how serious you want to sound, you're not going to add anything new or inspirational.
really? the riots/looting stopped several days before any sentences were handed down, its just politicking now
I thought they stopped because it was cold and raining.
Oh dear....I suspect that most people in the UK would prefer not to see people trashing the place again any time soon.
Obviously, some other people are less concerned.
yeah thats exactly what i want to see?!!?
it doesnt take 'bonkers' sentencing to make people stop stealing stuff, just the police actually arresting them was enough
If more people decide *not* to take part in mass theft and disorder in future because they are aware of the likely punishments, then I approve.
Yes but 8, 16, 32 years, will also have the same effect, it doesn't make it justified though. You can't justify extreme sentences simply on the grounds that they achieve the desired result. And 4 years for posting something silly on the internet, and 6 months for the opportunistic theft of some cheap bottled water, [i]are[/i] extreme sentences. Well unless you live in a country such as Iran, in which case they wouldn't represent extreme sentences. But then if it happened in Iran we would be up in arms about it.
And as you quite rightly point out, we are talking about "theft" here - theft from shops. Which however unacceptable and undesirable it might be, is very far from being the most heinous crime. It is certainly not in the same league as starting illegal wars based on lying to parliament and the British people, and resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.
Quite apart from the patent "injustice" of this knee-jerk nonsense, and the totally unnecessary cost to the taxpayer, it can only be counter-productive. It will leave many with [i]less[/i] respect for the law and the justice system - not more.
It will leave many, specially young people, feeling angry and bitter that they have been unjustifiably harshly targeted, and made examples of, because they young and not very wealthy. Whilst others who through their own greed and selfishness have screwed the country, get away with it because of their power and wealth.
What sort of society dishes out 4 years for posting something silly on the internet, and 6 months for the opportunistic theft of some cheap bottled water, but lets crooked media moguls, war criminals, greedy destructive bankers, and dodgy coppers/MPs, off the hook ?
A society plagued with alienation, bitterness, and divisions - that's what sort of society. And many young people, with no previous, have in the last few days discovered the consequences of not resisting arrest, owning up, admitting their guilt, and putting their faith in the justice system. Expect [i]more[/i] trouble in the future, not less. You reap what you sow was never truer.
It will leave many, specially young people, feeling angry and bitter that they have been unjustifiably harshly targeted, and made examples of, because they young and not very wealthy
....Or maybe, just maybe, because they were involved in theft and major public disorder or attempting to incite it?
My heart doesn't bleed at all and I don't see the 'injustice'.
I'm sorry but it wasn't just a bit of harmless theft from shops. Panicking, owning up and hoping for leniency isn't good enough. If handing out cautions to people who confess is the only punishment, where is the disincentive for others in the future?
I don't care if the perpetrators don't [i]respect[/i] the law. They won't anyway. I want them to be afraid of the law (well, the punishment) when they are deciding whether or not to form large mobs and destroy the local town. These people were not stealing bread to feed their families, they were taking 'consumer goods' and just looting shops for the sake of it. Taking a crate of glorified tap water is just nonsensical, but it is still burglary and, in fact, totally unnecessary. It deserves punshment.
I'm all for engaging with people who have problems, I'm not some middle-class chap in an ivory tower who reads the Daily Mail and has never met 'ordinary people'.
I'm also in favour of trying to enthuse people to get involved in (positive)things and improve their situation if possible.
Incidentally, I am as against our country starting illegal wars in my name as much as anyone else.
A society plagued with alienation, bitterness, and divisions - that's what sort of society. And many young people, with no previous, have in the last few days discovered the consequences of not resisting arrest, owning up, admitting their guilt, and putting their faith in the justice system. Expect more trouble in the future, not less. You reap what you sow was never truer.
Alternatively, a load of people who had never realised before that a mob can get a load of free 'luxury items' have now found out that if you get caught taking part in such activities, you'll get gaol time.
Simple folk need simple messages:
If you don't want to end up in gaol, don't follow a stealing, violent mob into town.
It's ugly, and I don't feel all that comfortable locking all these folk up ( I'm a poncy N.London "prison doesnt work" liberal at heart) but we have to get the message across that getting involved in a mass riot isnt OK. It was properly scary down here last week, people are not happy, we just can't risk it happening again because a bunch of kids think there arent consequences.
5 people died.
Ok its a debate But just look at what this scum has done to our country not alone world wide
damage done to our tourism. Then not forgetting though's whom have lost if not everything.
what about them !
Personally i would give them more including putting them in with the worst offenders
and see how man they are.
The best deterant is people being happy with their lot in life; feeling that they are a part of society rather than excluded from it and repressed by it.
Sentencing seen as unjustly harsh by the majority (if this forum is anything to go by) and particularly by those communities concerned will pour oil on the fire.
I agree.
I don't subscribe to the flashy goods = happiness mantra myself
Unfortunately, outside of educated people discussing it, the people inclined to commit crimes such as this need a simple message, which they are now receiving.
I'd much prefer it if these folk were happy to live in a pleasant way and take part in community and sporting activities, but, as it stands, they need some urgent disincentive from ransacking the city centre next week.
Aristotle - MemberUnfortunately, outside of educated people discussing it, the people inclined to commit crimes such as this need a simple message, which they are now receiving.
We already have a huge prison population, the idea that britain's "soft on crime" is just a myth- per capita, only Spain imprisons more in western europe. We imprison [i]50% [/i]more people than Austria, France, Belgium, Germany to name just a few.
So do you look at that and say "Hmm, imprisoning 50% more of the population than our peers doesn't seem to have worked so far- we need to imprison MORE!"? We've tried prison as a deterrant, and it's turned out to be [i]crap.[/i]
"Hmm, imprisoning 50% more of the population than our peers doesn't seem to have worked so far
That's only if you are coming from a deterrent POV
It certainly works as a punishment and it certainly works by keeping them away from committing more crime
I'm perfectly happy to see villains locked away to keep the public safer for a period, regardless of any deterrent the incarceration may effect
uplink - MemberIt certainly works as a punishment and it certainly works by keeping them away from committing more crime
Only while they're in jail- the reoffending rate after a prison sentence is higher than after a noncustodial sentence. Prison as a punishment increases crime, in some ways at least.
Sometimes prison works well just as a box to put a threat in- serial offenders, serious offenders, those who're most likely to reoffend. But in a lot of these cases, you're talking about first time offenders. Does Lidl Guy need to be inside to protect us from his stealing spree?
they need some urgent disincentive from ransacking the city centre next week
wonders if employment, a fair chance, not living in squalor and a reasonable share in the wealth of the country could be used to disincenitivise riots? you know a fairer society or will only a very large disproportionate response of imprisonment handed out by the state let them know their place in society and rehabilitate them in to acting as we wish and respecting society?
wonders if employment, a fair chance, not living in squalor and a reasonable share in the wealth of the country could be used to disincenitivise riots?
What - how will that inspire a millionaire's grammar school daughter?
a ballet student perhaps, or an organic chef, maybe an opera steward? a law student perhaps?
How about this guy? an oxford graduate:
There's a simple common denominator - they thought that they could get away with it!
How many times on here have we discussed bike thieves being let off with a slap on the wrists?
I'm sorry but it wasn't just a bit of harmless theft from shops.
🙄 And there they go again.......those who automatically assume that because you are opposed to stupid sentences which clearly don't fit the crime, you are therefore dismissing it all as "just a bit of harmless theft from shops".
It is beyond comprehension for them, that anyone can recognise wrongdoing, and yet not support ridiculously excessive sentences. The whole concept is far too complex for them to get their tabloid educated heads round. They live in a hopelessly naive and simplistic world of "all, or, nothing" - no other options exist.
And as long as that simplistic attitude prevails, we can be assured that Britain is, and will remain, ****ed.
ha ha ha laughing all the way to the pub, its not so funny now is it.
ernie_lynch - Member
It is beyond comprehension for them, that anyone can recognise wrongdoing, and yet not support ridiculously excessive sentences. The whole concept is far too complex for them to get their tabloid educated heads round. They live in a hopelessly naive and simplistic world of "all, or, nothing" - no other options exist.
I suspect that some people choose to read and see only the things that they want to see whether that is left or right wing.
Yes, there should be alternatives to lots of long gaol sentences, but in the current situation a huge number of people have done a bit of opportunistic crime that has caused a lot of trouble.
The courts are making an example of criminals in order to hopefully prevent the mob from doing it again any time soon. [b]I have no sympathy for these people as they were motivated by greed and excitement, not absolute poverty and repression[/b]. They were not protesting at anything other than having to pay for 'luxury' items.
Lessons should be learned and alternatives to prison should be better utilised, but at short notice it won't be practical to arrange a fully effective community service system, although I do strongly believe that such a system should be set up soon.
And as long as that simplistic attitude prevails, we can be assured that Britain is, and will remain, ****ed.
Well it isn't '****ed' as far as I am concerned, but some people enjoying saying it.
How much do you earn a year aristotle and what kind of area do you live in?
How much do you earn a year aristotle and what kind of area do you live in?
Ah. I see what you are getting at: The bloke nicked the water as a means of achieving social justice. I understand now.
Well it isn't '****ed' as far as I am concerned, but some people enjoying saying it.
So you think it is perfectly acceptable to have two an a half million unemployed, including, almost one million young people ?
You think 20% across the board public spending cuts, rising prices, and falling living standards, says nothing about the state of the economy ?
There's nothing wrong with cutting the social housing budget by 60% whilst at the same time spending millions destroying and bombing the crap out of other countries ?
This is what the main road into my town centre looks like today :
[img] 
[/img]
Is this what you expect to see outside a war zone ?
And you think it's fine for Hazel Blears to demand, quote : [i]"good, stiff, exemplary sentences"[/i] for those who we are told have a misplaced "sense of entitlement" ?
To help you answer that question I'll remind you who Hazel Blears is :
[i]In May 2009 The Telegraph reported that Blears had been claiming the maximum allowable expenses, to under a pound, for three properties, as well as for stays in hotels, [b]£4,874 on furniture, £899 on a new bed and £913 on a new TV, the second such TV in under a year, and the maximum £400 a month in groceries[/b], they also claimed that Blears had not paid capital gains tax on profit from the sale of a London flat. The property was registered as her main residence with HM Revenue and Customs, but Blears had been claiming MPs' second home expenses relating to the flat. It was claimed that she had made a £45,000 profit on its sale without paying capital gains tax.[/i][/b]
She has a fair "sense of entitlement" .......expensive beds, TVs, and grocery. And all without needing to loot any shop.
And wait for it......it's all perfectly legal of course :
[i]"In June 2009, the Police at Scotland Yard and the Crown Prosecution Service issued a statement regarding MPs' expenses, which stated that [b]they had not found evidence of criminal activity[/b] and that it was 'highly unlikely' that MPs would face charges"[/i]
You think it's acceptable for a multi-billionaire media mogul to walk a free man despite the fact that his company was involved in criminal activity ?
You don't have a problem with a couple of idiots getting 4 years for being silly on the internet despite the fact that a paedophile would be unlucky to get that ?
6 months for the opportunistic theft of a few cheap bottles of water from a budget supermarket, whilst Gary Glitter gets 4 months for child pornography is justice ? It's ok for a society to value bottles of mineral water more highly than the well-being of children ?
I'll stop there, you can carry on for yourself, other than to say that for me the cherry on the icing is the people who claim that everything is just fine. Apart that is, for the need for harsher sentences. And cuts in people's living standards and services of course. The country's in a terrible mess dontcha know ? Except that everything is just fine. Of course.
Some more numbers, for everyone who thinks more jail time will prevent riots and looting... In 1991, the prison population in england and wales was 42000. In 2008, it was 82000- the official operating capacity of our entire prison system, despite the massive prison building program of the same period. It's still rising
From 95 to 2005, the number of people in prison for shoplifting (to use a relevant and minor crime here) went up 10-fold. We jailed 3000 first-time offenders for petty theft in 2001 (blatant wiki facts, these two)
So contrary to what you may have heard, about light sentences and slaps on the wrists, these rioters grew up during the biggest increase in prison time served this country has ever seen. Longer sentences, more jail sentences for relatively minor offences, more jail sentences for first offences.
Don't believe everything you think 😉
What's the proposed solution for those who commit "petty" crime then? Stern talking to? Stupidly short sentences that just give people a taster? It apparently takes £30K just to process and organise sending someone to jail, before any time is served (BBC figures) so that's relatively a very expensive 30 day sentence should you pick such a thing when 70K gets you a year's lockdown. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I sure as hell don't agree with many of the pathetic soft policing/soft sentencing systems many propose.
Far to many namby pamby wet pinko sorts on here.We need to bring back corporal punishment and beat the living daylights out of looters and have the stocks or pillory on every village green and in every marketplace ,and hang a few as well or send them to Aus.
We need to bring back corporal punishment and beat the living daylights out of looters ............. and hang a few as well
Careful now, inciting others to commit acts of violence and other criminal activities over the internet could get you 4 years.
What's that you say ?.......you were only "joking" ?
Yeah right, tell it to the judge mate, then we'll see how "funny" he finds it.
Mr Alam has denied the charges. He has been refused bail. The fact the job offer has been withdrawn is proof he is being assumed guilty whilst no proof of guilt other than police evidence is being presented. Evidence from a notoriously xenophobic, masonic police force with a history of trumping up charges.
Just remember what the police accused Ian Tomlinson of before the Guardian video showed the police were lying through their teeth.
Is community service a bad idea?
"Is community service a bad idea? "
I don't think so. Given that these scrotes made such a mess of our communities, I suggest the best thing to do with them is make them clean it up. Restorative justice and all that.
Macdonald [former CPS chief]told the Guardian: "Some of the offences that have been committed are exceptionally serious and they require grave punishment, and the sentencing guidelines cater for this. But we are also seeing exceptional punishment for opportunistic offences that appear, on the face of it, to be less serious. Coupled with the threat to remove benefits and to evict the families of rioters from their homes, we are seeing a response that risks becoming excessive and contrary to the norms of justice."I think it's essential that the courts don't become swept up in a collective loss of proportion. There is a difference between a sentence that deters and a sentence that lacks humanity or justice. Nothing could be more destructive to social harmony than criminal sentencing which is ill-judged and unfair."
5 months for handling one pair of stolen shorts for a mother of two , 4 yrs for inciting to riot when the riot never even occured- dont we argue on here about whether the internet is real or not and some think it doe snot count on the net - 6 mths for £3.50 water etc. We can then factor in all the discrepancises as well - person stole 2 Burbery t-shirts and got 1 day sentence.
Britons rejoiced when the people rose up against (rioted) arab régimes and the bullying police that had unjustly imprisoned hundreds of opponents. Will Britons rejoice when the people rise up against (riot) Queeny, her government and the bullying police?
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/aug/18/retribution-for-riots-why-not ]http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/aug/18/retribution-for-riots-why-not[/url]
This pretty much sums up my view.
And yes, I do read the Guardian.
Will Britons rejoice when the people rise up against (riot) Queeny, her government and the bullying police?
Hyperbole? Anyway, weren't the people rising up in support of free sports-casual-wear and large flat tvs, before celebrating the free refreshemnts on offer at the local corner shop?
Given that these scrotes made such a mess of our communities, I suggest the best thing to do with them is make them clean it up. Restorative justice and all that.
+1 and make them wear clown costumes or something else uncool while they are doing it
I don't know the answers, but I suspect that this is closer to the right thing to do rather than the hang em flog em off with their heads school of thought..
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14565750 ]Incredibly moving and dignified and one in the eye for the Islam bashers[/url]
heard the father interviewed a few times as well .incredibly dignified response by him during this time
Good call BB
coffeeking - MemberWhat's the proposed solution for those who commit "petty" crime then? Stern talking to? Stupidly short sentences that just give people a taster?
Community sentences- more productive, and have a lower reoffending rate than prison. Also only 10% of the cost. For anyone intending a normal life then the conviction alone is a massive thing, people make light of it but would you laugh off jobseeking today with a conviction for burglary?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/aug/18/retribution-for-riots-why-notMean? No. People write all sorts of really ugly and stupid things on Facebook, Twitter, email and other anti-social media platforms (including this one), and it's time they realised that they matter.
LOLZ. We should jail trolls
Now had those three defending stores actually done any defending they'd be up for assault and being accused of being outlaw vigilantes.
Can someone clarify...all this talk of people getting caught up in the excitement of the moment, doing things they wouldn't normally dream of doing, but just going along with everyone else without fully considering the consequences...is that the looters or the judiciary?
