Nah, during the Charles Kennedy era the LibDems were a vaguely left-wing, and definitely anti-war, party. If you were opposed to neoliberalism supporting the LibDems was definitely a step in the right direction.
His alcoholism was a real tragedy, and I can't help but wonder if things would've been different had he been shown more support by his party.
Evidence please.
You want me to give you evidence of parties that don't exist?
The Greens are just as much a broad church if not more so, given that there’s a definite urban socialist/social democrat wing and a rural small c conservative wing.
You think the Greens are ever going to vote for fracking if they are given a shot at a coalition?
I suppose the thing that unites the LDs is a commitment to liberalism,
Are you sure? Is there not a more vague central tenet you could pick?
SNP and Plaid Cymru are committed to independence. It's a concrete goal to work towards.
The Greens are committed to the environment. It doesn't take much imagination to see what policies they will be for and which they will oppose.
As someone who is fairly well educated and follows politics, I have no idea what liberalism means in terms of policy. It basically a religion. People can make it mean whatever they want it to mean and one person's liberalism is another person's oppression. I can see why philosophers would like it though. Lots to discuss.
Electoral reform would be a red line – this was one of the lessons learned from 2010. Ironically AV was only chosen over a properly proportional system as they thought Lab would be more likely to support it. On the other hand, if they’d asked for STV for local elections, that would probably have gone through (because neither Lab nor the Tories value their local government base) – would that be enough of a commitment to LD values for you?
If they came out and said, 'We will not enter any coalition or support any government in any way without reform of the electoral system for general elections (and we don't mean AV this time)' I would consider voting for them (not a referendum though, just get it done).
You think that's going to happen or will the lure of a 'win' be too much for Lib-Dem members and it'll be 2010 all over again?
His alcoholism was a real tragedy
I couldn't agree more. I am quite anti-alcohol anyway and what it did to Charles Kennedy, and the subsequent effect on UK politics, is just another thing to add to the list of reasons that I don't like the drug.
You want me to give you evidence of parties that don’t exist?
You said that small, broad church parties tend not to last long. So there must be historic examples?
So there must be historic examples?
Erm, OK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_People%27s_Party_(Norway,_1972)
Outside the two biggest parties, most Scandinavian parties have a clear focus area and constituency. You can look at any of them and see clearly what kind of voter they are aiming to attract.
The closest thing to an all things to all men party in Norway would be Venstre (it means Left but they are centrists). Saying that, they have a strong focus on environmental issues and are probably the second most 'Green' party after the Greens themselves.
Of course, parties can do this in a PR system.
The Lib-Dems need to go balls to the wall for electoral reform. No more talk of coalitions, definitely no more saying things like 'I'm running for PM'. They need to become the UKIP of electoral reform.
Otherwise there is simply no space for them and once the traditional (pre-Blair era) Lib-Dem voters are gone the party will disappear.
I do agree with you that talk of coalitions isn't helpful - talk of an anti-Tory coalition at Westminster is unhelpful in areas where at local level the LDs face Lab, for example. But I don't necessarily agree there is no niche.
Looking at sister parties, if you gloss over e.g. Fianna Fail or the VVD there are moderate sized broad church liberal parties such as D66 in other places under proportional systems.
The difficulties inherent in going all out for electoral reform are allegations that the LDs only want it because it benefits them (which it might, so far as anyone knows, though that's not really the experience in Scotland/Wales) rather than being the right thing to do, the "so what are you going to do once you've for fairer votes?" question, and the fact that while LDs get very exercised about electoral reform, I'm not sure how well it cuts through.
(Another red line is probably Lords reform into an elected Senate, incidentally).
The difficulties inherent in going all out for electoral reform are allegations that the LDs only want it because it benefits them (which it might, so far as anyone knows, though that’s not really the experience in Scotland/Wales) rather than being the right thing to do, the “so what are you going to do once you’ve for fairer votes?” question, and the fact that while LDs get very exercised about electoral reform, I’m not sure how well it cuts through.
I think there is a very strong case to be made that almost every problem the UK has faced this century can be traced back to FPTP and the fact that parties are forced to pursue a couple of hundred thousand swing voters in a few key seats at the expense of the interests of the vast majority of the population.
It all comes down to parties being handed absolute majorities with a minority of the vote.
Iraq, Austerity, Brexit, not to mention all the smaller policies implemented to punish poor people because swing voters seem to like that, it all comes down to parties being able to act without having to compromise in any way.
Forget everything else and just hammer home the idea that there are a privileged pampered few living in key seats who get handed everything because they decide elections while you can't afford to heat your house.
It might be largely bollocks but if UKIP taught us anything it's that it's always good to have someone to blame and voting for us is the only way to stop these scroungers stealing your money.
Anyway, back to local election news Redcar and Cleveland has been declared.
In other semi related news apparently Reform have got their first MP!
Ok its Bridgen after the tories kicked him out but hey its a start.
It all comes down to parties being handed absolute majorities with a minority of the vote.
Iraq, Austerity, Brexit, not to mention......
Not in the case of austerity and the coalition government. The coalition government represented 59% of the 2010 general election vote.
Both the Tories and the LibDems fought the 2010 general election on a programme of austerity, they had a clear mandate from the majority of the electorate for austerity.
Whilst Labour offered the electorate austerity-lite promising to only half the deficit in 4 years.
Labour's stance undoubtedly helped the Tories and LibDems to win the argument. After all if Labour agreed that austerity and wiping out the deficit was necessary and vital why not back parties which were willing to do it quickly so that Britian would be on the road to recovery in no time at all?
It is important to remember that austerity wasn't necessarily foisted on an unwilling nation but that an electorate were sold a lie by all three major parties.
Reform have got their first MP!
Ok its Bridgen after the tories kicked him out but hey its a start.
It's not necessarily a start for Reform UK, it could represent the final conclusion.
After all quite a few Tories have over the years defected to UKIP, I'm not sure how many, but only person has ever been elected as a UKIP MP.
I very much doubt that Bridgen will retain his seat in the next general election or that there will be one single Reform UK MP in 18 months time.
In last week's local elections Reform UK only managed to win 6 council seats, their appeal to voters isn't obvious.
Which ones are they prepared to give up on and which will they fight to the death for
All and none respectively, just like any political party.
I couldn’t mention a second policy UKIP had. And yet here we are, out of the EU.
Oddly enough, out of all of them UKIP is the one party that I could list policies of. Their notoriety brought it to the fore.
You don’t change a country with a FPTP electoral system by voting one of the two big parties. You change it by not voting for the two main parties.
Good luck with that.
UKIP showed that if you stop voting for the Tories they will chase your vote by going where you went. No reason to think Labour wouldn’t do the same.
UKIP showed that the Tory party weren't quite racist enough for a good chunk of the electorate. Something which the Tories realised and capitalised on, resulting in UKIP imploding into obscurity once one of the Big Two had picked up the torch for them.
It’s not a football game. The important thing is not that your team wins. The important thing is to get the outcome you want.
"We won you lost get over it"
"What are you going to do, keep having a vote until you get the result you want?"
Of course it's a football game. It's well documented that there were no more World Cup matches after Uruguay won in 1930.
Can you not think of a definition of the gap in policy between Labour and Conservatives that isn’t a tautology?
Can you?
The problem here isn't the LDs, it's the creep of Labour closing the gap. Once of a time they were the Opposition, today they're the choice between being slapped or stabbed.
I get the impression you're just writing things because you have to have the last word and aren't really paying any attention to what I'm writing so I think I'll leave it at that and stop endlessly making the same points which you will once again ignore.
Feel free to say something after this so you can definitely have the last word.
1) it's striking that some of the biggest fans of the supposedly compromise and coalition-minded model in the Scottish Parliament are also the biggest critics of the Lib Dems...because they compromised and formed a coalition! 🤬😡🤬
Examples of why this is wrong. the brexit vote. Not a single area of Scotland voted for brexit and overall it was 2:1 remain
Or another. the highest UKIP reached in the polls here was 7%. In england 20+ %
2) If Scotland is unique because it never voted UKIP and voted overwhelmingly against Brexit...what about Northern Ireland and London? There hasn't been a Tory majority of MPs in London for 30 years now.
Hell, even if Blair were still in power – he simply ****ed up."
3) Sort of bizarre to see Thatcher's withdrawal of free milk in some schools bracketed with Blair's illegal war of aggression that killed hundreds of thousands of people. Oopsie! Maybe if he sends a box of Roses and a card to the Iraqi embassy it'll all be okay?
The Lib-Dems need to go balls to the wall for electoral reform.
That might make bigger parties less inclined to enter coalitions with them though.
Reform have got their first MP!
It's actually not Reform UK that Andrew Bridgen has joined it's the Reclaim Party. So he has even less chance of still being an MP in 18 months time.
The Reclaim Party don't have a single councillor, although they do have a temporary MP now.
Imagine what kind of stationary orbit you'd have to be in to be the spiritual home of a space cadet like Andrew Bridgen?
It’s actually not Reform UK that Andrew Bridgen has joined it’s the Reclaim Party
Got confused between nutter parties.
I guess thats Lawrence fox now on the path to world domination.
Isn't reclaim / reclamation a posh word when what it really means is scrap / salvage in some contexts.
Maybe in this context too - a party where those discarded by the others end up.
His alcoholism was a real tragedy
Wonder if we'll be saying the same about Keir Starmer in a few years time? 😳
Imagine what kind of stationary orbit you’d have to be in to be the spiritual home of a space cadet like Andrew Bridgen?
He's not a space cadet. He's an out and out, copper-bottomed crook who has backed himself into a corner and (tragically) realises there is a big enough proportion of UK society that are deluded/stupid enough to keep him from having to get a proper job. He'll be a rent-a-gob like Farage for years off the back of these 'vulnerable' people.
More worrying is that Trump is (again) pulling the same trick with a massive numbers of US voters. It defies belief, let alone explanation.
That might make bigger parties less inclined to enter coalitions with them though.
I thought there was something in the last few years that labour would now support electoral reform? If not they really don't like helping themselves.
.....realises there is a big enough proportion of UK society that are deluded/stupid enough to keep him from having to get a proper job.
You really believe that Andrew Bridgen will still be an MP after the next general election - why?
The Reclaim Party couldn't even win a council seat in last week's local elections, what makes you think that they can win a parliamentary seat with someone who most voters wouldn't know from Adam?
This is I think a potential path to electoral reform - it won't easily come by making it a manifesto policy for the LD's (and Greens, etc.) if the hope is then they win the majority, that won't happen. The path in is to be kingmakers but absolutely insist it's part of their deal. No reform, no alliances.
Whether the main two will go for that depends if they want to be the main party of Gov in 12-18 months time. Whether LD would buckle as they did on other matters, also who knows.
Whether the main two will go for that depends if they want to be the main party of Gov in 12-18 months time.
I imagine that the Tories would rather be in opposition than agree to electoral reform.
Tbh I think it is very perfectly possible that the Tories would be quite happy to be in opposition for 5 years. They know that every now and again they have to be in opposition so why not now when Labour is led by someone who posses such a little threat to the status quo? The situation certainly doesn't have the urgency it had when Corbyn was Labour leader.
On the other hand it could be far more problematic for Starmer to resist electoral reform. The Labour overwhelmingly supports electoral reform so Starmer's only means of resisting the pressure is to come with some half-arsed nonsense that he wants to concentrate on doing other stuff and that it isn't important.
He will struggle with that argument if it is a LibDem/Green coalition demand.
Got confused between nutter parties.
I guess thats Lawrence fox now on the path to world domination.
I think that's how tbe Trump thread started...
ernielynch
Full MemberTbh I think it is very perfectly possible that the Tories would be quite happy to be in opposition for 5 years. They know that every now and again they have to be in opposition so why not now when Labour is led by someone who posses such a little threat to the status quo?
Especially when they've made such a mess of things, have no solutions, and are realising that blaming Labour when you've been in power for 13 years is getting a bit tired. Time to reset the clock.
I cannot believe people think a tory labour anti snp coalition is acceptable.
Working with a very right wing party against another social democratic party. It stinks to high heaven. Labour have forgotten who the enemy is
You really believe that Andrew Bridgen will still be an MP after the next general election – why?
Nope. Read the comment fully. I said he'd end up as a rent-a-gob treading a line somewhere between Farage and David Icke. There's plenty of bandwidth on GBeebies and the like to keep people like Bridgen in a job. And that is because it has an audience - when it absolutely should not have one. But one percent of 65 million is still enough for a few grifters to make a living.
I cannot believe people think a tory labour anti snp coalition is acceptable.
I can barely believe that's a sentence. What?
There’s plenty of bandwidth on GBeebies and the like to keep people like Bridgen in a job. And that is because it has an audience – when it absolutely should not have one.
Ah you think he will get a job with GB News I take it then, not remain an MP. Well I am sure that he won't still be an MP after the next general election.
But I have no idea whether GB News will offer him a job. Personally I can't see why they would - I think it is fair to say that most people probably haven't heard of Andrew Bridgen and those that have only know him as the geezer who got kicked out of the Tory Party for talking bollocks about covid vaccinations.
Only yesterday GB News got into serious trouble for giving a platform to people talking bollocks about the Covid jab. They were forced to apologize and could have their license withdrawn if they carry on with that nonsense. I can't see them offering some unknown geezer the opportunity to get themselves into further trouble.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-65532879
A spokesperson for the channel said: "We accept Ofcom's finding that our former presenter Mark Steyn and his guest Naomi Wolf breached the Ofcom code in their broadcast about Covid vaccines last October. Mr Steyn last appeared on the channel five months ago."
I can barely believe that’s a sentence. What?
He's banging on about Scotland and how on some councils where no party has a majority councillors sometimes sort out an arrangement to run the council which doesn't necessarily involve the SNP.
Arrangements which exclude the SNP in minority-run Scottish councils is apparently unacceptable to TJ, even though he doesn't vote SNP, alledgedly.
Cougar
All over scotland in local and national elections labour and the Tories are working together either in formal coalitions or informal pacts in order to freeze out the snp
Even to the point of labour withdrawing the whip from dissenting elected representatives
No ernie
Whats unacceptable to me is labour in formal coalition with the Tories
To see labour MSPs cheering wins for the tories
To see labour councillors being expelled for refusing to join these coalitions
How can labour have so lost their way to work with a nasty right wing party to thwart a social democratic party on councils where the constitution is not an issue
How can labour vote down such policies as providing meals for school children.
How can labour vote down such policies as providing meals for school children.
I don't know TJ.
SCHOOLKIDS have been denied a free soup and roll throughout the winter months after Labour and Tory councillors teamed up to vote down the proposal.
The SNP group in Stirling put forward the idea as a way of helping those who are not eligible for free school meals get through the toughest winter months when people will be really feeling the pinch after Christmas.
But the £160,000 plan – which would’ve given every secondary school pupil and older primary kids soup and a roll from January to March – was shot down by the minority Labour administration who were supported by Tory councillors.
Labour did however agree to put £50 000 towards a coronation "party"
https://www.thenational.scot/news/23186491.stirling-pupils-denied-soup-roll-labour-tory-councillors/
Thats an utter disgrace especially given that we know the labour councilors represent some of the most deprived wards in the UK.
The hung parliament nonsense the Tories are trying to spin isn't looking too rosy
https://twitter.com/BNHWalker/status/1656340357070585880?t=JEVeArdU-WPHsRAjrboFKA&s=19
was shot down by the minority Labour administration who were supported by Tory councillors
So that example apparently isn't a Labour-Tory coalition on Stirling council at all. It is a minority Labour administration which the Tories decided to vote with when the SNP proposal came up for consideration.
Thats an utter disgrace
Yes I totally agree. Free soup and roll throughout the winter months for school children sounds like something which should be affordable. However my expectations of the Labour Party aren't very high, I thought yours weren't either?
But more importantly is free soup and roll throughout the winter months for school children an active policy in all SNP controlled councils?
The SNP can make any proposal they wish whilst in opposition, especially ones which make the Labour Party appear Dickensian towards hungry children, but how do they behave when they are in power?
It is a labour tory pact - just informal - as on many councils in Scotland. the labour / tory pact has been running for a decade now. its disgraceful. It runs for national ( holyrood and UK) and local elections.
Sarwar said no coalitions so now they are doing deals like this. Underhand, under the table and it all stems from the labour party in Scotlands tribal hatred of the SNP. I expect the next holyrood government to be a labour / tory coalition
The hung parliament nonsense the Tories are trying to spin isn’t looking too rosy
To be fair it is Starmer that has fed the hung parliament narrative. Yesterday he publicity and categorically ruled out any post-general election deal with the SNP, but refused 7 times to rule out a deal with the LibDems.
Apparently he doesn't comment on hypothetical situations involving the LibDems, only hypothetical situations involving the SNP.
Starmer could have ruled out any deal with any party when he was asked yesterday, claiming that it wasn't necessary to discuss it as he was confident that Labour would have a majority.
If he had done that Rishi Sunak would not have had the ammunition during today's prime minister questions to attack him over his refusal to rule out a deal with the LibDems.
It would also have made the Labour Party look more confident that voters will back them at the next general election.
TJ do you know the answer to this question?
But more importantly is free soup and roll throughout the winter months for school children an active policy in all SNP controlled councils?
The disgust at Labour and the Tories on Stirling council for not supporting the SNP proposal is only valid if all SNP controlled councils are providing school children free soup and roll throughout the winter months.
I don't know is the answer I have not heard of any. SNP councils do not have a central manifesto
Its just an example of labour and tories working together to thwart the SNP - on any and every issue.
Labour and SNP did work together on some councils previously but Sarwqr ( under orders from london I believe) cancelled all such arrangements
I don’t know is the answer I have not heard of any.
Well it's quite an important question. If there aren't any SNP controlled councils which are giving school children free soup and roll throughout the winter months then that means that Stirling council is not behaving any different to an SNP controlled council, in that respect.
Our disgust at school children not receiving free soup and rolls during the winter months should be expanded to also include the SNP.
