Tories Vs the Spice Girls
https://twitter.com/OfficialMelB/status/1578487276707143682?t=vP0epehyawd0bSa3p7JDeg&s=19
As I keep pointing out (or trying) being “working class” in those times was not based on income.
I'm not convinced it is now either TBH.
Also, I'm also confused by this idea that "working class" and "working people" are exactly the same thing. Does the rest of you think they mean the same thing?
I don't, at all, but I'm a bit dim. ( and even more dim nowadays)
Of course working class and working people aren't the same thing. Working class refers manual workers with basic education whilst working people refers to everyone who works as an employee including professionals with higher educational achievements.
In the United States in particularly the term "blue collar worker" is often used as a substitute for working class. And back in the day when there were substantial manufacturing industries in the UK the term "hourly paid worker" was often used by the media.
Another cracking column from Marina Hyde
https://twitter.com/marinahyde/status/1578627545461043200?s=21&t=dc2QGazZnwVXMyv4I0mbYA
I don’t know if you watch Marina’s Supertankskii stuff, but she’s started referring to Truss as ‘Lynn from HR’
😂
The truss bounce is pretty phenomenal
I'm wondering how low she can take the Tories
I assumed that the 30pt labour leads of last week were just a knee jerk and would fall down a bit this week
With Burns accusations, who knows !
This list looks ever more genuine too
https://twitter.com/llegrastratton/status/1578409093588451329?t=N2IQXEpl0kIfYs6HEFsUuw&s=19
I assumed that the 30pt labour leads of last week were just a knee jerk and would fall down a bit this week
No far from it, it appears to be consistent and established now.
The interesting point imo is how despite chatterati outrage of Boris Johnson's personal failures as a human being - lying, partygate, etc, how comparatively little damage it did to the Tories.
However when the cause of the problem for the Tories is policy rather than personality the damage is devastating.
And quite right too. Whilst Johnson eating birthday cake, or whatever, in defiance of the governments own restrictions was annoying it didn't cause me any outrage, unlike some I barely cared at all, it simply had no effect on the vast majority of people's lives.
However Truss/Kwarteng policies if implemented will have significant effect on people's lives. Voters appear to fully appreciate that. They are not quite as stupid as many on here like to believe. And they are not daft enough to think that partygate really mattered that much.
I would rather have the lying Johnson taking the piss than Liz Truss who probably didn't do anything significant to undermine pandemic restrictions. And judging by what the opinions polls of the last couple of weeks are saying millions agree with me.
And quite right too. Whilst Johnson eating birthday cake, or whatever, in defiance of the governments own restrictions was annoying it didn’t cause me any outrage, unlike some I barely cared at all, it simply had no effect on the vast majority of people’s lives.
However Truss/Kwarteng policies if implemented will have significant effect on people’s lives. Voters appear to fully appreciate that. They are not quite as stupid as many on here like to believe. And they are not daft enough to think that partygate really mattered that much.
Yeah, as a nurse having to prevent relatives from seeing their loved ones as they died, not being able to attend family funerals and knowing folk who had to watch their father die whilst they stood outside the ward window, I'm really stupid to think that what Johnson and his cronies did mattered.
Obviously now the Tories are costing folk money I should be outraged.
I would rather have the lying Johnson taking the piss than Liz Truss who probably didn’t do anything significant to undermine pandemic restrictions. And judging by what the opinions polls of the last couple of weeks are saying millions agree with me.
So what that indicates is the majority of the British public don't give two flying ****s so long as they're alright - odd reason to start supporting left wing parties.
Hit them in the pocket and they all want to be socialists.
Whilst Johnson eating birthday cake, or whatever
Ahh, still minimising his failings and misdemeanours. Little changes. Carry on…
Yeah, as a nurse having to prevent relatives from seeing their loved ones as they died, not being able to attend family funerals and knowing folk who had to watch their father die whilst they stood outside the ward window
Are you suggesting that none of that should have happened? All those restrictions were considered appropriate responses.
Johnson's failings to fully observe covid restrictions, which was probably not hugely dissimilar to many on here and indeed the wider population, does not in any way mean that restrictions the NHS implemented were not appropriate.
Although I fully accept that those who felt that pandemic restrictions were not justified would be particularly outraged. Certainly the anti-lockdown conspiracy theorist/Tory right-wingers were.
Carry on…
Thanks Kelvin but I don't need an invitation from you to express my opinion.
Edit: Btw I actually broke anti-lockdown restrictions on about half a dozen or so occasions when me and a near neighbour, with whom I wasn't in a "bubble" went on bike rides. I don't feel responsible for those who couldn't see their loved ones, I wasn't even initially aware that it was illegal. I also lost two friends to Covid one who I had known since the age of 7. I couldn't attend their funerals.
Ahh, still minimising his failings and misdemeanours.
Indeed
Someone in work was commenting that her Tory voting brother in law never made it to see his dad before he died & was still furious with Johnson
Are you suggesting that none of that should have happened? All those restrictions were considered appropriate responses.
Not at all. You are saying it didn't matter to you (and millions of others) if the elite didn't adhere to the rules.
So why do you (and those millions) think it's ok for rich people to ignore the law?
Which other laws do you think rich and important people should be able to ignore?
I barely cared at all, it simply had no effect on the vast majority of people’s lives.
Most law breaking has little or no effect on the vast majority of people's lives.
Should people care if a man rapes a woman?
If so, why? It has no effect on their lives?
I think Ernie has rather summed up the modern Tory (ex red wall) voters. Don't really care about standards but if they think they are losing out, be it financially or perceived losses to immigrants, people on benefits etc they suddenly get interested. They are not interested in a fairer society as long as they are ok, these are the ex Labour voters (who they voted for because they thought they would personally be better off, it wasn't for a more equal society). The Johnson Tories tapped into the percieved inequalities, BREXIT, immigrants, benefit claimants etc quite well. Truss clearly doesnt understand the dog whistle politics playbook and rather than maintaining these peoples standard of living in the crisis was seen to favour the top 1% with the 45% tax cut. She completely misread the room. The reality though was this demographic has been lied to for years about the standard of living they could expect, and they lapped it up, it's now all falling apart because the Tory lies weren't sustainable.
You are saying it didn’t matter to you (and millions of others) if the elite didn’t adhere to the rules.
No I am not saying that. I have repeatedly said that imo it was annoying, out of order, and taking the piss. Which obviously suggests that I don't think "it didn't matter".
What I am doing though, apparently like millions of others, is putting some sort of perspective on it. He got a £50 fixed penalty notice which to me seems totally appropriate. What Truss is currently attempting to do is far worse than that which is why it is being reflected in unprecedented opinion polls.
Furthermore I am particularly pleased that Johnson was Prime Minister during the pandemic and not Liz Truss who has publicly criticised Johnson's lockdown measures:
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/should-not-closed-schools-covid-liz-truss/
When asked about comments made by her competitor Rishi Sunak, who said earlier it was "wrong to scare people" with Covid messaging, Ms Truss said "we did go too far" and said she saw first hand how difficult school closures were for children.
And as you can see the other leadership contender has also criticised lockdown measures as going to far. If anything my criticism is that they didn't go far enough, or certainly not early enough.
Johnson had huge opposition from Tory MPs for his lockdown measures, at one point despite the massive Tory majority he even had to rely on Labour MPs for his measures to go through the House of Commons.
I am very pleased that Johnson was PM during the pandemic and lockdown rather than Liz Truss, I don't mind saying so. And judging by opinion polls many voters, millions in fact, agree with me that a Liz Truss premiership is even less appealing than a Boris Johnson premiership.
I think Ernie has rather summed up the modern Tory (ex red wall) voters.
That's me..... always backing the Tories.
I am working-class, I intensely dislike "wokism", and I very strongly supported leaving the EU.
For the intellectually lazy that can only mean one thing - I am a racist Tory.
What less could it possibly mean?
Edit: Sometimes I really wished that micklynch rode a bike.
From that list what do amber rudd and supermarionation truss have in common?
That’s me….. always backing the Tories.
I am working-class, I intensely dislike “wokism”, and I very strongly supported leaving the EU.
For the intellectually lazy that can only mean one thing – I am a racist Tory.
What less could it possibly mean?
I don't think he was aiming at you, he did specifically say Tory (Red Wall) voters.
What is wokeism?
What is wokeism?
Formally it has been described as 'alert to racial prejudice and discrimination' and expanded to include sexism and a variety of other isms.
I don't think it has a real meaning any more.
Everyone just uses it to describe the bits of being nice to people that they don't like.
Sorry ernie certainly not a dig at you, I don't think anyone can seriously accuse you of being a Tory, I was responding clumsily to your point about policy being the Tories downfall, the red wall voters didnt care about the optics of Johnson's behaviour and lapped up his denigration of others. Now things have started to bite they were expecting to be supported, not happening with Truss around. These voters don't care about the bigger picture as long as they are Ok. Many were once key Labour supporters.
Sorry ernie certainly not a dig at you, I don’t think anyone can seriously accuse you of being a Tory
Okay thanks but I don't know what makes me different to the average red wall voter - very little imo ... working-class, basic education, anti-woke, anti-EU. Why am I not a racist Tory?
Obviously someone like Tony Benn, or former Labour leader Michael Foot, who were as much anti-EEC/EU as me, and in fact in the case of anti-ECC even more so than me, would never be called racists. But in their defence they were professional affluent middle-class intellectuals, like red wall voters I have no such defence.
I think also a problem is many people appear to have forgotten what the term "red wall voters" actually refers to. It refers to areas of the UK were voters since well beyond living memory had voted Labour until 2019, they still managed to vote Labour in the general election 2 years earlier.
So what happened between 2017-19 that caused areas of the UK to return Tory MPs after having elected Labour MPs since the Labour Party first became a credible political force? A sudden mass change of personality caused them to become racist Tories?
These red wall voters even managed to support Labour through the Blair years, which is more than I managed to do. I returned to Labour in 2017 but, like red wall voters, became bitterly disillusioned with Labour by 2019.
Today that has dramatically changed, Labour now has an even higher lead over the Tories in the red wall areas than Labour has on average throughout the UK
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-3-4-october-2022/
Our latest Red Wall poll finds Labour leading the Conservatives by 38%, a staggering twenty-three points more than in our previous poll two weeks ago, and the largest lead ever achieved by any party in our Red Wall polling. Altogether, the results of our poll (with changes from 19-20 September) are as follows:
Labour 61% (+12)
Conservative 23% (-11)
Reform UK 3% (-4)
Liberal Democrat 7% (+2)
Green 4% (–)
Plaid Cymru 1% (+1)
Other 1% (–)
Labour's 38% lead over the Tories in the red wall is far higher than any national opinion poll. What's happened, have they suddenly had a mass change of personality again? Aren't they racists anymore?
Whilst Boris Johnson was PM it was far from sure that the red wall would return to Labour, now it seems a complete certainty that they will.
I probably won't though, I will probably back the Green Party, especially if Labour are certain to have a huge majority. Red wall voters are better Labour supporters than I am.
Dismiss them as only voting for their own self-interest if you like, it certainly makes a difference to the narrative that they are stupid and vote against their own interests.
But the reality is that they, fairly reasonably, felt abandoned by the Labour Party, something which Boris Johnson tapped into. The shock of Liz Truss's agenda of rewarding the rich for being rich and everyone else paying for it has been a wake-up call for them.
Ok no idea whether you are racist although you dont post as if you are. You've made it quite clear you dont vote Tory so I think it's safe to say you're not a Tory.
appear to have forgotten what the term “red wall voters” actually refers to.
Fair point it's become a generic term to describe previously Labour voters from the north who voted Tory last time around. People who voted Labour traditionally as they thought Labour was best for them personally rather than thought Labour was better for society. They showed their true beliefs when the Tories dangled their racist and divisive click bait policies in front of them.
Aren’t they racists anymore?
Course they are, always were, just historically Labour's promise to look after the incomes of the working classes trumped their racism. The Tories trumped Labour's fiscal policies (at the risk of waking Binners up Magic Grandad was far to likely to give money to people they deemed other or underserving) with the racist narrative of Brexit.
Now Liz has made it clear tax cuts aren't for the likes of them and BREXIT is done they've gone back to the party they think will most likely look after them personally. Most Labour voters are no different in their motivations than conservative voters, they will vote for whatever chimes best with their circumstances and personal vested interests. Where you start to see a difference is middle class voters where these vote Labour can afford to have principles, Tory middle class voters generally still vote in their own interests. Of course there will be many voters of all backgrounds who dont conform to my stereotypes but I think the majority do.
Caretaker being flow in due to poor health of the PM?
Aren’t they racists anymore?
Course they are, always were,
Sorted, all working-class Labour voters are racists. Why make things complicated when simple bigotry answers everything easily?
In other news it seems that the Labour lead in London is currently almost as great as the Labour lead in the red wall.
The Conservatives have slumped 37 points behind Labour in London
Out of 73 MPs in London not a single one would be Tory. It isn't going to happen when the general election eventually comes but it shows the magnitude of the problem facing the Tories with Liz Truss as PM.
It's hard to imagine her popularity increasing significantly with time.
Voters appear to fully appreciate that. They are not quite as stupid as many on here like to believe
No, they really are.
Just wait till the election.
Remember, the "red wall" swing was mostly about FPTP and the UKIP and Lib Dem collapse. Labour's vote share was pretty much unchanged from 2010 to 2019 in the red wall. It did fall from 2017 to 2019 but that was just reversion- it went 39%, 42%, 50%, 39%.
It's just, in the same period the "not labour" vote went from being split 19% lib dem 32%, to 5% lib dem 17% ukip, then 3/3/42 in 2017 (with Labour picking up slightly less votes from the lib dems and ukip, pushing them to that exceptional 50%). And then a bunch of those voters who'd moved to Labour in 2017 from UKIP and the Lib Dems, moved Tory.
When the dust all settled Labour had the exact same 39% vote share which had made the red wall seem so red and wallish.
Remember, the “red wall” swing was mostly about FPTP and the UKIP and Lib Dem collapse.
The LibDem collapse and FPTP are very important, and that helps to explain why despite Labour having a greater share of the vote in 2019 than under either Ed Miliband or Gordon Brown the Tories ended up with such a huge majority.
However the LibDem collapse had already occurred in 2017 when according to your figures the Labour vote in the red wall seats was 50%. The question is why did it fall to 39% two years later?
IMO the answer is brexit and the Corbyn factor.
The term red wall wasn't in common usage at that time but that article refers to red wall seats:
"The group has put their names to full page adverts in a number of local and regional newspapers in the north of England."
I do agree though that the slow decline of the Labour vote in the red wall seats goes back to at least 2010, after 13 years of Labour governments doing little for them and a Labour Party which took their votes for granted whilst they wooed voters outside the heartlands, disillusionment was bound to set in.
With control of both local authorities and parliamentary seats the Labour Party was often seen as "the establishment".
Sorted, all working-class Labour voters are racists.
A lot of people are racist to some level. They will be Labour voters, Tory voters and Lib Dem voters. It all depends on the priorities at the time (helped by some populism) on whether keeping out people is more important than being able to live.
Brexit was largely about keeping out people and taking back control and the financial aspect was low priority or brushed off as project fear as finances were not such an issue for people as say now.
Interesting personal stance Ernie, how much personal financial loss will the category of voter you've singled out be prepared to stomach for this ideological stance?
Brexit and the current fiscal strategy has taken hundreds of pounds a month from them. How much is it worth?
The Tories eating each other is amusing
I love that because Shaps can use Excel he's the most dangerous of all the MPs
But the sharks are circling. Even allies are unimpressed by the functioning of Downing Street so far. A serving minister said: “They’re f***wits. They think they’ve turned it around. But they don’t understand politics.
Is that just an advert for a phone? Not looked past the paywall.
As Biden proposes pardoning everyone currently in jail with a cannabis conviction in the US, Braverman contemplates making it class A
I think the Times broke the story, found more or less the same story without a paywall.
Interesting analysis in this mornings Observer of Truss and Kamikwasi's unhinged libertarian nut-jobbery
https://twitter.com/andrewrawnsley/status/1579030783180042240?s=20&t=829TQdgYhjDcR17WFXCXug
And the totally suicidal economic incoherence of it
https://twitter.com/ObserverUK/status/1579004150331092992?s=20&t=829TQdgYhjDcR17WFXCXug
The bottom line seems to be that only the most demented Ayn-Rand-worshipping, hard right nutjobs (ie: most of the cabinet, but not many outside it other than John Redwood) will support this, so they can't actually get any of this lunacy through the commons.
When Iain Duncan Smith and Nadine Dorres are saying they won't support it as its far too right wing, then you really are exploring the outer limits of the political wilderness. It's staggering that they can't see it. Or maybe they can but they just don't care
So far they've threatened to treat the top rate tax vote as a vote of confidence in their own government and had to back down when Graham Brady had a word and said they still wouldn't get it through and they'd lose their majority if they tried. Expect a lot more of that sort of thing. This whole 'mini-budget' is going to fall apart piece by bonkers piece
This whole ‘mini-budget’ is going to fall apart piece by bonkers piece
I hope you are right mate. I hope they turn on each other like rats in a sack.
If any of the more moderate ones had any principles, they would not allow the government to get this through Parliament. However, as a lot of them don't have principles and will lose their jobs at the next election, I can see them allowing through for their own short term benefit. Even though they though this Britannia Unchained nonsense is going to wreck the Country.
kelvin
Full Member
Is that just an advert for a phone? Not looked past the paywall.
Just register you get a few free reads a week
Basically saying that the there are multiple factions within the party planning for getting truss out
I am very pleased that Johnson was PM during the pandemic and lockdown rather than Liz Truss, I don’t mind saying so.
I absolutely 100% agree with you.
In other news, I'll take my dogshit sandwich on wholemeal rather than white.
I shudder to think where we'd have ended up if Liz 'its not the job of government to interfere in peoples lives' Truss was in charge during the pandemic.
Probably making Bolsonaro's Brazil look sane in comparison
Basically saying that the there are multiple factions within the party planning for getting truss out
And also changing the leadership election rules so that 80,000 senile racists can't impose another economically illiterate headcase on the country
working-class, basic education, anti-woke,
So all for prejudice and discrimination, then. Nice. Texas has a welcome mat all ready for you. And it’s a Red state, appropriately.
FWIW, I was brought up working class, never got beyond doing CSE’s at school, but I was taught to treat everyone the same, regardless of place of origin, gender, etc.
I heard something on a political podcast recently. Can't remember which one but it was about a bit of research that basically showed the right understands the left much better than the left understands the right. You can see that on this thread where lots of people seem to find it hard to understand how anyone can vote Tory. But rather than try to understand the appeal of the Tories (which is surely a pre-requisite to beating them) there is a tendency to just assume that their voters are stupid, racist, selfish etc.
Tories Vs the Spice Girls
Part two…
https://twitter.com/karlturnermp/status/1579102854933274624?s=21
"I try not to be political but in all honesty it's a flipping disgrace.
“You're talking about the bankers getting their bonuses.
"I'm in a very privileged position, I can't get up on my high horse and start saying things, but I think any person with any morals can see what's going on isn't right.
“I think we all feel just so worn out by it all and it concerns me what's going to happen. People are desperate, what is going to happen?”
working-class, basic education, anti-woke,
So all for prejudice and discrimination, then. Nice.
Because I think accusing people of racism because they say "coloured people" instead of "people of colour" is bollox that makes me prejudice? Get a grip FFS.
I am intensely opposed to all prejudices, including those based on colour, sex, race, religion, politics, sexual orientation, and class.
Some people seem to think that certain prejudices are perfectly acceptable, including on here. The obvious examples are that all working-class are racists and all Tory voters are uncaring selfish bastards.
Those are two blatant prejudices on here which on more than one occasion I have found myself arguing against. As indeed also prejudices against people's religions, although that does seem less prevalent these days.
As I have said recently, I judge people as individuals, I leave bigotry to others.
And I don't much appreciate the sanctimonious middle-class self-appointed woke police, full of their own personal prejudices, accusing working-class people of sexism and racism and telling them how to speak.
And it's not just me that it pisses off - whole swathes of the electorate are wound up by it with unfortunately very negative consequences. HTH
woke police,
There's woke police 🚨 !!?? 😳
FWIW, I was brought up working class, never got beyond doing CSE’s at school, but I was taught to treat everyone the same, regardless of place of origin, gender, etc.
What saddens me is that my parents were quite implicit that people should be treated equally and fairly, when I grew up.
It's pretty depressing to see them drift to the right as they've aged, my dad certainly way more openly homophobic and both seem to have become more racist, especially towards Travellers/ gypsies & eastern Europeans as well as South Asians etc, even though as far as I can see they have very little interaction with them.
Much of this prejudice comes from the media they consume.
Brexit certainly brought out a side to them I'd not seen/ been aware of. They bought into the vote leave/ farage propaganda & bigotry very easily
