[Closed] Living wage in bike industry

If the internet sites keep taking market share we won't have to worry about bike shop wages as they will all be closed. The last thing bike shops need is pressure to pay higher wages to all their employees, we should be supporting small businesses via online sales taxes.

interestingly i had this conversation just yesterday with another employee of a shop i worked in in days gone by.

He is no longer an employee there - after many years - he did not like what head office were dictating and voted with his feet.

I worked there for 2 months and could see that there were significant accountancy based barriers in place of providing good service in the name maximize profit at the expense of customer satisfaction.

How ever i digress. We both went in as customers at different points recently and were shocked at how much poorer the service had become to the point of where the floor staff could not furnish me with a road brake cable without getting a mechanic.

My friend still has some contacts within and it turns out that management no longer seek skilled enthusiastic staff and just want warm body's - and the staff they are getting just view it as another job - to quote him " they are just another shop - they are as viable as working in spar to them"

the crux of it for both of us is - why would you ? i mean i worked in shops for many years for me the wages were pretty shite - how ever because my main expenditure was on bikes - it balanced out to be a decent wage as bike bits were trade + vat. If you dont cycle - why would you do it - whats the draw as even for working in a shop the wages are poor and the expectation of your customers is pretty high- you need a working knowledge. its not beeping items through a till.

beginning of the end for them i fear/hope.

another big chain manages to work round this issue and ive always been plesently surprised when i make the trek across town to see them - how ever they are a nightmare to get to. - i travel in the other direction now and go to the mom and pop shop. Yes pop is grumpy/stressed sometimes but on the whole service is more consistent and they have a half an idea what it is i want and i dont usually get the glazed look.

we should be supporting small businesses via online sales taxes.

Small businesses also sell online.

I'd say the biggest threat to small bike shops is from the big-shed bike retailers.

@the-muffin yes some small shops do sell online, I've bought stuff from 18-bikes, there could be an allowance for that but I'd wager a (say) 10% online sales tax wouldn't impact the that much, it's the wiggle/cry/bike-discount/amazon I'm thinking of

As trail-rat says a lot of bike shop employees use the staff discount as justification for the wages, my daughter did much the same taking a lower paid part time job at a fashion brand she liked vs working for Hobbs

Evans-sales staff £13,520.Mechanic £14,560 (in Brighton!!).

@Ror - I calculate that about 39 weeks work assuming 8hr day and minimum wage ? What are the hours quoted for Evans for those salaries ?

Having recently had experience of Evans appalling application process, I also hope that they close down as a whole.

Still satisfied to use my lbs one man band or close to in order to get my fix (pun intended).

Even my lbs bloke mentioned to me to go get those 29er stans rims for £47.95 delivered next day as that was too good a deal not to miss.

Long live the honest genuine know a bike shop bloke who employs a couple at the most and to keep costs down as much as possible.

The major players online and in store need to ''get real'' about who they employ and what they pay.
false economy just hiring any old muppet who's looking for a pay packet to then show no interest/knowledge for the customer.

jambalya - are you calculating that over 7 days or 5....

i calculate it to be 6.50 an hour or 7 quid in brighton on 8 hour days on 5/7 rotation over 52 weeks.

overtime was always worth while though - time and half if you worked on your days off

FWIW i was getting more than that in the aforementioned shop i worked in 7 years ago and still considered it a poor wage against living costs.

http://www.latestvacancies.com/evans-cycles/default-new.asp
One opened locally.I considered applying for the workshop manager role.The pay was considerably more than the lbs average but then every other (non management) role was minimum wage and/or part time.How are you supposed to a)attract decent staff b)actually motivate them to to give a sh@t.

I dunno, but I popped into the Reading branch the other day to pick up some stuff ordered online.

Contrary to expectations, it was as good an experience as any LBS visit, except I left without the feeling of being ultimately shafted for some part or other.

What did surprise me was the staff seemed to be
a) cyclists
b) not teenagers
c) not unmotivated people in a McJob.

Without trying to be too condescending, why would you do it? Yes it's working in the bike industry which is your hobby, but surely it's the equivalent of working in New Look and saying you work in fashion, or the TV department at John Lewis and working in Media.

[i]If the internet sites keep taking market share we won't have to worry about bike shop wages as they will all be closed. The last thing bike shops need is pressure to pay higher wages to all their employees, we should be supporting small businesses via online sales taxes. [/i]

1 Customers buy from where they decide, they're buying more online now.
2 All employers will have to pay higher wages, both local and online.
3 How do you define a small business vs an online business - they could be both, and do you also think that buying your holiday online should mean a subsidy to the local travel agent?

also tbh pretty much any non-management role in ANY retail operation is going to be paid at the minimum the employer can get away with

we should be supporting small businesses via online sales taxes.

They are already receiving benefits from government as they will be paying part of the salaries by way of tax credits.

any shop treating its self as a retail outlet and using lowest common denominator staff to run it is already on the downward spiral.

as roscharch our man in industry well knows - if you dont have good mechanics your on a hiding to nothing.

you cant sell bikes without a good mechanic.

a good mechanic or two can outstrip your sales profit quite easily and create a USP that the internet cannot offer

yet ime the chains seem to focus on sales/the easy money and let the workshop go to ratshit.

I worked for a certain South Yorkshire based chain that suffers awfully from this. Minimum wage means they attract people who will use it as a stop gap, filling in time when they aren't in college, waiting for another job, waiting to go to uni and so on. No time and a half on Sundays, working a 6 day week one week out of four for what was barely £13k a year.

Because the staff are so poorly paid it's difficult for them to put their heart in it, stay longer if a customer needs help at 6pm on a Friday evening or go the extra mile. I came into it bright eyed and bushy tailed from working in a small LBS where the pay was more (but still sub £15k) and you were looked after well and it was pretty demoralising. Mechanic turnover was high, because there weren't a large number of high-wage full time staff but minimum wage part timers consistency of customer service was varied and people wouldn't know about customer requests or queries because half the staff weren't there half the time.

Interesting that EBC are noted as being a higher payer in the report as they're one that I've noticed a difference in. But I've also had excellent service in every Evans I've been to.

Given the number of moans on here about rip offs for repairs you can see why bikes shops struggle to make any money never mind raise wages.
People just do not understand what goes into paying someone a wage and running a workshop.

Although I think its 7.85 an hr right? Its not much is it.

Round here I know that well qualified (ie gas safe reg) plumbers get 15 an hr + 1.5 times OT.
Which means they make about 30k a year if they do a bit of OT.

But a gas safe plumber is qualified and in possession of a specialist and in demand skill

Pay in retail, which I would class the bike shop as, is poor full stop. Similar to lots of general clerical work

"Pay in retail, which I would class the bike shop as, is poor full stop. Similar to lots of general clerical work"

does a car mechanic work in retail ?

go get a retail assistant from next to bleed your disk brake.

and your next arguement is that bikes are not complex and dont need specialist skills .... neither are cars - ive built one of them from components as well

The UK model needs a kick up the arse, I was earning the equivalent of £15.5k as a sales assistant 8years ago when I worked in a bike shop in Perth W.A. plus staff discount on top.

I'm not sure but when I worked as a mechanic I was told the same biz rate where paid on the work shop as the rest of the unit so the rates per sq ft as it was a subpart of a retail unit. This means biz rate where very high for a whorkshop type enviroment. Hence this contributes to the high overheads of providing repairs. Most we ever took in one day in labour wsa about 550 between two of us (Camden so very bussy), other days it may only be 200 odd 250 between the two of us plus a few safty checks on bike if they were sold, or a few bike built for stock. 250 quid does not pay much wadges after overheads of running a workshop.

Personaly the best thing to do if you are a mechanic in a bussy city is set up your own small work shop with a mate. I knew someone who did this and they could charge cheaper rates and make a good proffit. Only carriered basic spares like cable, cassettes, limited range of tyre and tubes. Ordered in as needed other items. This only works in a bussy city though as you need to have the large commuting base to give you good solid bread and butter work.

thebrick - that would be the basis of my entire business model - how ever current unstable economic climate here and high cost of premises near town are highly prohibitive

The cost of premises is the biggest problem for "one man band" shops and businesses, not wages. It is another aspect of the ludicrous property boom over the past 30 years.

Christ that's really poor.

In 1999 working for a Hi-Fi shop my wage was £11k but I got some commission on top and I wasn't expected to repair the hi-fis for that money either!

A bike mechanic isn't "unskilled" labour either. I'm reasonably competent and confident at fixing bikes these days but its only because I've been learning from my own mistakes for the past 10 years.

Genuinely surprised at how poor the pay is.

"Pay in retail, which I would class the bike shop as, is poor full stop. Similar to lots of general clerical work"

does a car mechanic work in retail ?

go get a retail assistant from next to bleed your disk brake.

and your next arguement is that bikes are not complex and dont need specialist skills .... neither are cars - ive built one of them from components as well

Have you seen how much car mechanics earn? You'd earn more as a plumber!

I'm not saying it's not hard. I'm saying it's in a sector that has relatively low margins and not a huge amount of demand. The average member of the public is happy on a low cost bike or BSO. They have no desire to spend a lot of getting their bike looking after

And cars are definitely more complex than bikes. They're becoming increasingly clever, automated and electronic, which makes tinkering with them harder than when they were mechanical only.

Having worked in a couple of bike shops and knowin the margins I think a living wage would be hard to pay for most local stores.
Even multi nationals would find it hard to pay over £7 and rising to £9? Not possible.

It's not even be living wage that's the whole issue but the knock on effect. Pay your shop staff that wage fine but how much extra can you pay the key holder/assistant manager/manager.

Soon enough everyone wants/needs more and it all falls apart.

The increased minimum wadge was ment to at least partialy ment to be compensated for by other tax breaks.

The staff in many Evans branches are complete crap. I went to the Spitalfields one the other day, City location, lots of shiny bikes and people spending lots.

Me: "have you got the new 9-series Trek Madone?"
Man: "err... Yes. here's one:"
Me: "that's a Domane" (and an entry level one at that)
Man: "oh, sorry, ask man 2" (I forget his name)
Me to man 2: "have you got the new 9-series Trek Madone?"
Man 2: "err yeah... There's one over there" (points nonchalantly at a row of bikes)

As I wandered over to the display it was evident there were no such bikes, and man 2 had walked off in the other direction.

Why can't they say either: "d'you know, I'm not sure", or "no", or "sorry, not sure what that is, can you help me out a bit?"

Any of those would be wildly preferable to a fobbing off.

a good mechanic or two can outstrip your sales profit quite easily and create a USP that the internet cannot offer

Localish place to us has an ex-Olympian as the mechanic who is know for attention to detail - place is rammed with bikes in for repairs. It's where I go for anything big and I live over an hour away.

The staff in many Evans branches are great. I went to the Sheffield one and they were really helpful.

Of course, it could just be that one branch.

Benp1 you miss my point.......

Yes a plumber earns more than a mechanic. But a car mechanic(i have a fair few mech friends and 30k isnt unattainable at a good garage) earns alot more than a retail assistant.

Now is a bike mechanic more in line with a retail asisstant going beep beep at the till ... Or a car mechanic....

Not like bikes are not getting more complex as we go along too remember.

The staff in many Evans branches are complete crap.

Well the ones I've met at the Chill factor store have been very good and knowledgeable when I've needed help. 🙂

CAr mechnic the sky is the limit really, AA guys earn a hell of a lot more than 30k, and those F1 mechanics must be making bank

But a car mechanic(i have a fair few mech friends and 30k isnt unattainable at a good garage) earns alot more than a retail assistant.

£30k is very high for a mechanic, most are on about £20k even after all the training courses and manufacturer certifications etc.

I think London Evans stores have a much higher turnover of staff and as such less worry about quality!

I agree most branches are good, but thinking about it, the three London ones I've used recently - Fenchurch Street, Spitalfields and City Thameslink they've all been really shit. Waterloo are better certainly.

@trail_rat - I'm cleverly changing tack here 😀

My mechanic retail sales thing was more referring to a car salesman vs a car mechanic. Car sales isn't paid well either. More than a basic retail assistant, but still fairly low. Unless you're selling a lot of cars. I'd say car mechanic is more difficult than car selling, but mechanic is paid less than car sales.

Probably not a relevant argument though....

A greater proportion of cyclists will consider tinkering with their bike than drivers tinkering with their car (IMO). Hydraulic brakes and indexing gears are as difficult as the [u]average[/u]bike gets. I suspect there are very few average bikes on this forum.

You might play around with squeeky brakes on a bike, not on a car. Bottom bracket squeek and you're in a bike shop. But, conceptually, it's only a bike, so people don't assume it's difficult. I'm not saying it's easy though, I'm sure there's an unappreciation for how tricky some bits can be

Main way to make a decent crust is start up on your own I think.

badllama - Member
The staff in many Evans branches are complete crap.
Well the ones I've met at the Chill factor store have been very good and knowledgeable when I've needed help.

The UK model needs a kick up the arse, I was earning the equivalent of £15.5k as a sales assistant 8years ago when I worked in a bike shop in Perth W.A. plus staff discount on top.

Trekster im talking about the one in Greter Manchester by the Trafford Centre

After about 20 years in the bike industry, I now pay myself somewhere around the same as my starting salary was when I worked for IBM. Not counting inflation. But I'm much happier - and that's the point, most people in the bike industry are in it because they like bikes, and are willing to put up with the low pay to be able to work with bikes all day.

But why is pay low? Because bikes are devalued. I've got a 1950 Raleigh price list on my shop wall - once you add inflation, the average prices for bike are around £600 for an adult bike, £300 for a child's one. Nowadays most bikes are much cheaper, so people don't want to spend much to repair them. Then there's the ignorance factor - cars look bigger and more complicated than bikes, so people expect to pay more for car repairs.

It's not a UK thing, though. Nobody in the bike industry makes much money. I remember a trade industry talk I went to many years ago with Mike Burrows, who made the very good point that it's interesting there's no big multinationals making bikes. No Honda, no Ford, no Siemens*. Is this because bicycles are difficult to build? No, it's because there's not enough money in it for them.

The bike industry is weird. What other market covers both sporting goods and daily transport vehicles?

*Panasonic make some folding bikes in Japan. And some big companies have got into the electric bike thing, perhaps because it's technology they understand and can make more profit with.

as an aside, my auto mechanic works all hours (was there till 11pm last saturday) and does a lot of work for cash. and he is good.

my bike mechanic is me. only visit a shop to buy something that i need right away and even then most shops do not stock what i need. last time was in April when i bought some spunk for my tyres. had to be ordered in. 😕
oh, and sent my fork away over winter for a service. too much hassle to do it myself for 110€.
i know of one decent bike shop where i'm happy for my bikes to be tinkered with, but it's a two hour drive away.

2 All employers will have to pay higher wages, both local and online.

@cynical - I am not sure there are too many lbs owners who went into it for the money or are making a great deal

IMO the Evans business model is to sell bikes to the general public who have little clue (so they don't need knowledgeable staff). I bought my first mtb from cycle surgery as that sort of customer, my own fault for not going to the lbs sooner. At least I saw the light and bought my second bike there

LBSs are getting screwed from all angles:
1. Online shops
2. Online allowing the likes of us to self-repair using Park videos or other resources
3. Expectation from customers of everything as cheap as possible - partly from expectation of other retail and partly because wages are stagnant and consumers carrying too much debt or having massive % of income taken up in housing costs
4. Price of real estate - for e.g. Brixton Cycles are being forced out of their premises to be replaced with luxury flats + Look Mum No Hands in Mare Street apparently facing a 400% rent hike and having to move!

From an employee front, middle-range jobs like this, in the face of globalisation and automation, are disappearing in the UK - as per above, the employers can't pay enough for people to live without making a loss as they can't get prices high enough
Cost of housing another massive factor here in terms of driving up the pay people need to survive

As an aside - online shops combined with using websites to do our own mechanics is effectively automation of the services the LBS used to provide so we, the customer, as as much a cause of the problem as many other factors.

I think people are just beginning to realise now that the opportunities to live in the UK and feel financially secure are fast disappearing/becoming concentrated in a minority. If you're in a high-skilled knowledge job you'll probably be ok but a mid or low-skilled job and you're screwed. The job is either automated, gone abroad, taken by an immigrant or pays so low you can't afford to take it.
2008 was not an event, it was the end of UK being a wealthy country with a reasonable standard of living for all... (which was already happening, we just hadn't spotted it yet)

I totally agree with Brooess' last paragraph statement.

I've been telling people this but they're still living the dream under the illusion etc etc but times are going to get tougher.

We just don't want to believe it, until it hits us on the chops.

I am not sure there are too many lbs owners who went into it for the money or are making a great deal

No but making the national average is achievable no?

Bloody hell ive clicked on the ****.

Broess

Aren't 1 and 2 good things - certainly 2. Even I can mend sme things now!
3 just a truism
Ok 4 is shit with highly distorted RE markets

Low skills - yes you are screwed. No escaping that without much better education and investment in skills. But that far too long tern for MPs to worry about.

Aren't 1 and 2 good things - certainly 2. Even I can mend sme things now!

For those with the well-paid jobs, yes (e.g. you and me I assume) - it's cheaper.

For those for whom LBS is/was their job and way of life/way to save for retirement, no...

And for the country, no. Hollowing out the economy like this into a very few super-rich asset/landowners, few well-paid knowledge workers and loads (most of the country) of mid and low-skilled workers getting paid so little they can't survive without government support, let alone thrive...

It'll be messy when people realise how little the future holds for them, no matter how hard they work...

This thread makes depressing reading for me. Got an ok degree (granted in sport and exercise science) and work in the bike industry in a reasonably skilled role (bike fitting). Don't earn a lot at all, and I commute almost 40 miles each way to work (eating into that wage) as I work in what is a fairly well respected business in my area.

I don't know the exact figures but I believe that our mechanic is pretty well paid (and has an excellent reputation). The part mechanic parts sales guy earns the same as me. Apart from that it's the owner/ boss who works all hours.

I do it for a few reasons- the love of cycling is one, as is the staff discount (although even at trade price stuff isn't cheap, and can often be found online for similar prices), but mostly because I'm not sure what else to do for a career without retraining completely (thus 'wasting' my degree).

I don't see my earning potential rising a great deal, as there is more and more competition locally, so we can't simply charge more for the same service, so a pay rise is not on the cards at all. I also don't have any kind of pension, apart from starting to put some money aside each month as an experiment to see if I can afford it long term.

..a narrative that seems at odds with recent trends such as employment growth mainly being in the low skilled sector and the Bank of Engalnd reporting today that wages are rising in real and nominal terms and productivity also resign. At the same time, interest rates are forecast to stay low. That's a very different story....

Anyway we digress. FWIW Evans in Guildford are much better see days with some helpful and informative staff.

but mostly because I'm not sure what else to do for a career without retraining completely (thus 'wasting' my degree).

If that's all that's holding you back, then go for it. Your degree is a sunk cost, you're not going to get that time/money back, but letting it hold you back now makes no sense. My degree is in astrophysics and now I build bicycles, I went the other way 😉

I don't have much of a pension either. But I can't ever see myself retiring, so don't see that as much of a problem. Hopefully.

I started the thread because one of the things that strikes me is the quality of the people in most small bike shops. I tend not to go near box shifting stores, but even our local Halfords has good people.

As far as employee value for wages is concerned, bike workers are it IMO.

and do you also think that buying your holiday online should mean a subsidy to the local travel agent?

and Banks, Post offices, Call Centres, Bookshops, Pubs, Publishers, Musicians, Photo Developers and everyone else thats been effected by the Internet (so thats just about everyone).
I really like my bike shops btw, the one I like the best has great stock, a clean and stylish shop, brilliant IT that holds my account, skilled mechanics that know their stuff and shop staff that compete and win local races. For all that I'll pay over and above the web prices and enough that the staff can get a decent wage.

Any hint from the staff in any shop that their bitter web phobes and Im out of there.

The living wage, an actual living wage not the tory name theft version should be the minimum wage, full stop.

I left my last 'real' (as in not helping a mate out on very occasional weekends), bike shop job in July 1997. At that point I worked for a privately-owned small chain. Working 5/6 days or 5/7 days depending on the season, I was paid as low a wage as £6,500 per annum at 22 years old. For this I undertook a variety of roles including sales, custom and standard bike builds, repair work supporting the workshop manager, stock management and cleaning too.

It was a piss poor wage then and sounds not a lot better now in bike retail.

Some of Trail-Rat's finest work... 😀
[IMG] [/IMG]

Simple supply and demand isn't it? Plenty of young guys and girls who love cycling would love to work in a bike shop and unless you're talking high end bikes and complex bikes, bike skills training etc it's not really rocket science is it? Guessing it's only really a sustainable career for someone for a couple of years, or for someone who doesn't need or is happy to sacrifice a good salary for what they love. Plenty of these people around and hats off to them if they can make it work.

2008 was not an event, it was the end of UK being a wealthy country with a reasonable standard of living for all...

What you mean when we finally realised we had a huge government and personal debt addiction problem here in the UK? Was this ever sustainable?

What you mean when we finally realised we had a huge government and personal debt addiction problem here in the UK? Was this ever sustainable?

Funny, I thought it was reckless bank speculation which crashed the economy.

ouroboros aint it ben.

The wreckless speculation of the banks fueled the personal debt addiction - the big tvs and the white audis.

Agriculture: 0.6%
Construction: 6.4%
Production: 14.6%
Services: 78.4%

as % of our GDP - we are a service country which hasnt helped matters in the slightest.

Aye, that's a big problem - as is the fact that fictional money sloshing about in the system far outweighs the real money generated by actually making things.

The economy only works as long as nobody peeks behind the curtain.

The wreckless speculation of the banks fueled the personal debt addiction - the big tvs and the white audis.

Sorry, how does bank speculation result in personal debt addiction?

So Ben, the development of a knowledge based economy is a bad thing? (Leaving aside that the balance has gone too far - agreed) it is a myth that the UK does not manufacture things - it does and has a vibrant manufacturing sector (the 11th largest in the world and representing just under 60% of U, exports) but this thread seems to be mourning the demise of a relatively low skilled (sorry not meant to be rude) vocation, with poor supply and d em and dynamics from a wage perspective. As agent says above, good luck to those who (think they) can make it work, but hardly a blueprint for economic prosperity is it?

Remember in this hey dey, manufacturing was only 30% of GDP. Among recent trends is a shift win manufacturing to higher value activities. All of which is positive, although I agree doesn't fit with the doomsday, were fu@@ed because we don't make anything anymore argument

You'd be mad to open a bikeshop post-recession IMO. Crackers. Nevermind staff wages. The taxes, rates, rent, employer N.I contributions etc and if Labour gets in they'll increase taxes hurting hobby-customers who will in turn buy less.

At least a bikeshop employee can walk off/away. An owner faces folding and losing his/her house. The lot.

"You'd be mad to open a bikeshop post-recession IMO. Crackers. Nevermind staff wages"

Not so.

There are many mechanisms on place now to assist the dealer who may be cash poor. For example, we offer an Ibis Omnichannel which the dealer can still earn his margin or near as damn it if we (2pure) sell an Ibis direct to a consumer in his territory - even if the dealer never spoke to the customer.

Other distributors are offering margin protections, next day shipping direct to customers, and here is the killer... consignment stock. The shop doesn't pay for it, until they sell it.

In fact, depending on what you want to sell (and the key here is to be a Normal Bike Shop for Normal People, there has never been a better time.

I'm not offended, most of my profit comes from manufacturing, and that's quite highly skilled 😉

The bike indsutry is dysfunctional, I think most people in the industry who've really thought about it would agree. It doesn't work the way other industries do. I'm not sure if there's a fundamental thing about bicycles that makes it that way, they're unique in being both high-end racing machines and everyday workhorses, often sold and repaired by the same shops.

We do manufacture quite a bit in the UK, some very high end engineering. But the continuous plea to always do things that make "the city" happy are what's harming us long term.

Lord Gold of Rolls Royce once said that there's only two ways to actually make money - you can dig it out of the ground, or you can do work on a raw material to increase its value, everything else is just moving money about.

agent007 - Member

"2008 was not an event, it was the end of UK being a wealthy country with a reasonable standard of living for all..."

What you mean when we finally realised we had a huge government and personal debt addiction problem here in the UK? Was this ever sustainable?

Apparently not.

[img] [/img]

It would appear that the "huge government debt addiction", if you want to call it that, kicked in [u]after[/u] 2008.

Ojom I like that. But what about non-2pure brands/stockists? You cant supply a whole shops breadth from just one Distributer.

Chapeau though.

"In fact, depending on what you want to sell (and the key here is to be a Normal Bike Shop for Normal People, there has never been a better time."

the three local independants i know on a personal outside of business basis are doing better than they ever have - ones been around for 25 years the other two for 10 and 2 years respectively. The average bike price has increased significantly in the last few years and cycle clothes are a huge market for them.

from the outside looking in cycling popularity has never been higher.

did i say it resulted in personal debt addiction - i said it fueled it. People could get access to nigh on as much money as they wanted for "stuff"

Its not just bike shop workers either teamhurtmore - who makes your coffee , who pours your drink at the bar , who serves your meal at the restaurant.

before long we will all fall in on our selves thinking we are above that.

i may be an engineer at the moment - but id have no qualms in bartending/coffee making / cutting grass / fixing bikes if it put sheckles in my bank account - although i will admit im unlikely to do any of the above for an employer. If im doing to do menial jobs it will be on my terms for me.

ernie is that graph for "national debt" or "personal debt" - the title says different to the axis..... looks like national debt to me - increased around time of war etc.....

ernie is that graph for "national debt" or "personal debt" - the title says different to the axis..... looks like national debt to me

Well it says "national debt" so that's what the graph is of. It was in response to agent007 claim of a "huge government debt addiction".

As far as "personal debt" is concerned I'm sure that it has grown steadily over the last 35 years as wages as a percentage of GDP has fallen.

"The Market" needs consumers to sustain it, if consumers lack disposable income then the obvious solution other than to increase wages is to lend them money. Of course this isn't sustainable and the huge growth in easy credit goes right to the heart of the 2008 credit crises.

who knew - lifes just a giant pyramid scheme.

Generally that chart shows the result of events, policy decisions before the increases and the borrowing response to address the impact of those events

I used to work in the industry over 14 years ago. It's a strange ol' career as the job satisfaction can be excellent when you're tinkering in the workshop going through the days job cards, cup of tea in hand with the radio on. I was single bloke living hand to mouth and riding 10 miles each way via Worcestershire country lanes. I also worked at Madison, in inbound telesales, for which I move lock stock to Milton Keynes and that was a fairly decent wage with extremely good staff discount. However, I had a epiphany as it was 'never going to buy me a house'. I left the industry, went to uni as a mature student to do Computer Science and I now work as a self-employed developer and can afford the bike stuff I want.

One issue that I encountered a hell of a lot when working in shops, was that [i]some[/i] customers always want something for nothing. You know the kind, comes in and wants to spend no more then £250 on a bike that has to be used for commuting daily and for chucking down trails on a weekend. He also wants a helmet and lock thrown in and £10 off the retail price! I came across scenarios like this on a regular basis. Why do a lot of people think that there is some unwritten law that a bike should always be a deal? The bike should cost what it costs and if you want extras then you pay for them, this will then help (albeit in a small way) LBS's stay in business and not crucify the already stingy margin they get on bikes.

Someone has to be money out of the bike industry. Otherwise there would be no industry. Whilst it's fair to say most LBS owners aren't living the high life, some are doing very well, or are very comfortable at least.

I think a lot of people would like to paint a picture of the bike industry being populated almost exclusively by selfless volunteers, in it purely for the love, but you don't have to go very far up the ladder to see people who are multi millionaires.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh wait, were you being serious?

Whilst there are no doubt some very wealthy people right at the top, this

selfless volunteers, in it purely for the love

Is a lot closer than this

but you don't have to go very far up the ladder to see people who are multi millionaires.

IME

T-R sounds a rather fatalist view of things.

But the restaurant example is a good one. Last summer, my older son worked in a pub and for a law firm (internships). The former was in the minimum wage and long hours and v hard work. The later was well paid, long hours and hard mental work. He learnt a lot from both but the big lessons was the answer to his own question - blimey dad, working in a pub is much, much harder but the pay was awful.....

...ok, what are you going to choose....?

Ben not sure what is unique about bikes there? Although the car example is interesting eg VAG group - largely shared parts, shared labour/skills etc. so as the mechanic do you want to be servicing Audis or VWs????

I wouldnt recommend it as a career to anyone.

well i was thinking about this the other day as well in answer to my mates first question in our original conversation.

your bob. bobs finishing school - you dont have good qualifications - so your not going to uni.

You look at jobs for the unqualified and you see retail assistant 6.50P/H and you see - Builders labourer 6.50P/H

which are you going to choose - based on having no working knowledge of either industry.

Knowing what i know now - i would be the labourer all day long. How ever age 16 wanting the easy option id have probably been in the shop.

which is more likely to have prospects of a decent wage further down the line?

You look at jobs for the unqualified and you see retail assistant 6.50P/H and you see - Builders labourer 6.50P/H

In the South East builders labourers can earn significantly more than that.

fresh fish ? or experianced labourers .... anyway it was an example. in the south east your regular street begger probably makes more than 6.50p/h

I'm agreeing with your overall point, I would definitely encourage someone to go in the building trade rather than bike shops. There are exaggerations of the brickies on 60k per year down here but they all make a tidy sum.