[Closed] Living wage in bike industry

I totally agree with Brooess' last paragraph statement.

I've been telling people this but they're still living the dream under the illusion etc etc but times are going to get tougher.

We just don't want to believe it, until it hits us on the chops.

I am not sure there are too many lbs owners who went into it for the money or are making a great deal

No but making the national average is achievable no?

Bloody hell ive clicked on the ****.

Broess

Aren't 1 and 2 good things - certainly 2. Even I can mend sme things now!
3 just a truism
Ok 4 is shit with highly distorted RE markets

Low skills - yes you are screwed. No escaping that without much better education and investment in skills. But that far too long tern for MPs to worry about.

Aren't 1 and 2 good things - certainly 2. Even I can mend sme things now!

For those with the well-paid jobs, yes (e.g. you and me I assume) - it's cheaper.

For those for whom LBS is/was their job and way of life/way to save for retirement, no...

And for the country, no. Hollowing out the economy like this into a very few super-rich asset/landowners, few well-paid knowledge workers and loads (most of the country) of mid and low-skilled workers getting paid so little they can't survive without government support, let alone thrive...

It'll be messy when people realise how little the future holds for them, no matter how hard they work...

This thread makes depressing reading for me. Got an ok degree (granted in sport and exercise science) and work in the bike industry in a reasonably skilled role (bike fitting). Don't earn a lot at all, and I commute almost 40 miles each way to work (eating into that wage) as I work in what is a fairly well respected business in my area.

I don't know the exact figures but I believe that our mechanic is pretty well paid (and has an excellent reputation). The part mechanic parts sales guy earns the same as me. Apart from that it's the owner/ boss who works all hours.

I do it for a few reasons- the love of cycling is one, as is the staff discount (although even at trade price stuff isn't cheap, and can often be found online for similar prices), but mostly because I'm not sure what else to do for a career without retraining completely (thus 'wasting' my degree).

I don't see my earning potential rising a great deal, as there is more and more competition locally, so we can't simply charge more for the same service, so a pay rise is not on the cards at all. I also don't have any kind of pension, apart from starting to put some money aside each month as an experiment to see if I can afford it long term.

..a narrative that seems at odds with recent trends such as employment growth mainly being in the low skilled sector and the Bank of Engalnd reporting today that wages are rising in real and nominal terms and productivity also resign. At the same time, interest rates are forecast to stay low. That's a very different story....

Anyway we digress. FWIW Evans in Guildford are much better see days with some helpful and informative staff.

but mostly because I'm not sure what else to do for a career without retraining completely (thus 'wasting' my degree).

If that's all that's holding you back, then go for it. Your degree is a sunk cost, you're not going to get that time/money back, but letting it hold you back now makes no sense. My degree is in astrophysics and now I build bicycles, I went the other way 😉

I don't have much of a pension either. But I can't ever see myself retiring, so don't see that as much of a problem. Hopefully.

I started the thread because one of the things that strikes me is the quality of the people in most small bike shops. I tend not to go near box shifting stores, but even our local Halfords has good people.

As far as employee value for wages is concerned, bike workers are it IMO.

and do you also think that buying your holiday online should mean a subsidy to the local travel agent?

and Banks, Post offices, Call Centres, Bookshops, Pubs, Publishers, Musicians, Photo Developers and everyone else thats been effected by the Internet (so thats just about everyone).
I really like my bike shops btw, the one I like the best has great stock, a clean and stylish shop, brilliant IT that holds my account, skilled mechanics that know their stuff and shop staff that compete and win local races. For all that I'll pay over and above the web prices and enough that the staff can get a decent wage.

Any hint from the staff in any shop that their bitter web phobes and Im out of there.

The living wage, an actual living wage not the tory name theft version should be the minimum wage, full stop.

I left my last 'real' (as in not helping a mate out on very occasional weekends), bike shop job in July 1997. At that point I worked for a privately-owned small chain. Working 5/6 days or 5/7 days depending on the season, I was paid as low a wage as £6,500 per annum at 22 years old. For this I undertook a variety of roles including sales, custom and standard bike builds, repair work supporting the workshop manager, stock management and cleaning too.

It was a piss poor wage then and sounds not a lot better now in bike retail.

Some of Trail-Rat's finest work... 😀
[IMG] [/IMG]

Simple supply and demand isn't it? Plenty of young guys and girls who love cycling would love to work in a bike shop and unless you're talking high end bikes and complex bikes, bike skills training etc it's not really rocket science is it? Guessing it's only really a sustainable career for someone for a couple of years, or for someone who doesn't need or is happy to sacrifice a good salary for what they love. Plenty of these people around and hats off to them if they can make it work.

2008 was not an event, it was the end of UK being a wealthy country with a reasonable standard of living for all...

What you mean when we finally realised we had a huge government and personal debt addiction problem here in the UK? Was this ever sustainable?

What you mean when we finally realised we had a huge government and personal debt addiction problem here in the UK? Was this ever sustainable?

Funny, I thought it was reckless bank speculation which crashed the economy.

ouroboros aint it ben.

The wreckless speculation of the banks fueled the personal debt addiction - the big tvs and the white audis.

Agriculture: 0.6%
Construction: 6.4%
Production: 14.6%
Services: 78.4%

as % of our GDP - we are a service country which hasnt helped matters in the slightest.

Aye, that's a big problem - as is the fact that fictional money sloshing about in the system far outweighs the real money generated by actually making things.

The economy only works as long as nobody peeks behind the curtain.

The wreckless speculation of the banks fueled the personal debt addiction - the big tvs and the white audis.

Sorry, how does bank speculation result in personal debt addiction?

So Ben, the development of a knowledge based economy is a bad thing? (Leaving aside that the balance has gone too far - agreed) it is a myth that the UK does not manufacture things - it does and has a vibrant manufacturing sector (the 11th largest in the world and representing just under 60% of U, exports) but this thread seems to be mourning the demise of a relatively low skilled (sorry not meant to be rude) vocation, with poor supply and d em and dynamics from a wage perspective. As agent says above, good luck to those who (think they) can make it work, but hardly a blueprint for economic prosperity is it?

Remember in this hey dey, manufacturing was only 30% of GDP. Among recent trends is a shift win manufacturing to higher value activities. All of which is positive, although I agree doesn't fit with the doomsday, were fu@@ed because we don't make anything anymore argument

You'd be mad to open a bikeshop post-recession IMO. Crackers. Nevermind staff wages. The taxes, rates, rent, employer N.I contributions etc and if Labour gets in they'll increase taxes hurting hobby-customers who will in turn buy less.

At least a bikeshop employee can walk off/away. An owner faces folding and losing his/her house. The lot.

"You'd be mad to open a bikeshop post-recession IMO. Crackers. Nevermind staff wages"

Not so.

There are many mechanisms on place now to assist the dealer who may be cash poor. For example, we offer an Ibis Omnichannel which the dealer can still earn his margin or near as damn it if we (2pure) sell an Ibis direct to a consumer in his territory - even if the dealer never spoke to the customer.

Other distributors are offering margin protections, next day shipping direct to customers, and here is the killer... consignment stock. The shop doesn't pay for it, until they sell it.

In fact, depending on what you want to sell (and the key here is to be a Normal Bike Shop for Normal People, there has never been a better time.

I'm not offended, most of my profit comes from manufacturing, and that's quite highly skilled 😉

The bike indsutry is dysfunctional, I think most people in the industry who've really thought about it would agree. It doesn't work the way other industries do. I'm not sure if there's a fundamental thing about bicycles that makes it that way, they're unique in being both high-end racing machines and everyday workhorses, often sold and repaired by the same shops.

We do manufacture quite a bit in the UK, some very high end engineering. But the continuous plea to always do things that make "the city" happy are what's harming us long term.

Lord Gold of Rolls Royce once said that there's only two ways to actually make money - you can dig it out of the ground, or you can do work on a raw material to increase its value, everything else is just moving money about.

agent007 - Member

"2008 was not an event, it was the end of UK being a wealthy country with a reasonable standard of living for all..."

What you mean when we finally realised we had a huge government and personal debt addiction problem here in the UK? Was this ever sustainable?

Apparently not.

[img] [/img]

It would appear that the "huge government debt addiction", if you want to call it that, kicked in [u]after[/u] 2008.

Ojom I like that. But what about non-2pure brands/stockists? You cant supply a whole shops breadth from just one Distributer.

Chapeau though.

"In fact, depending on what you want to sell (and the key here is to be a Normal Bike Shop for Normal People, there has never been a better time."

the three local independants i know on a personal outside of business basis are doing better than they ever have - ones been around for 25 years the other two for 10 and 2 years respectively. The average bike price has increased significantly in the last few years and cycle clothes are a huge market for them.

from the outside looking in cycling popularity has never been higher.

did i say it resulted in personal debt addiction - i said it fueled it. People could get access to nigh on as much money as they wanted for "stuff"

Its not just bike shop workers either teamhurtmore - who makes your coffee , who pours your drink at the bar , who serves your meal at the restaurant.

before long we will all fall in on our selves thinking we are above that.

i may be an engineer at the moment - but id have no qualms in bartending/coffee making / cutting grass / fixing bikes if it put sheckles in my bank account - although i will admit im unlikely to do any of the above for an employer. If im doing to do menial jobs it will be on my terms for me.

ernie is that graph for "national debt" or "personal debt" - the title says different to the axis..... looks like national debt to me - increased around time of war etc.....

ernie is that graph for "national debt" or "personal debt" - the title says different to the axis..... looks like national debt to me

Well it says "national debt" so that's what the graph is of. It was in response to agent007 claim of a "huge government debt addiction".

As far as "personal debt" is concerned I'm sure that it has grown steadily over the last 35 years as wages as a percentage of GDP has fallen.

"The Market" needs consumers to sustain it, if consumers lack disposable income then the obvious solution other than to increase wages is to lend them money. Of course this isn't sustainable and the huge growth in easy credit goes right to the heart of the 2008 credit crises.

who knew - lifes just a giant pyramid scheme.

Generally that chart shows the result of events, policy decisions before the increases and the borrowing response to address the impact of those events

I used to work in the industry over 14 years ago. It's a strange ol' career as the job satisfaction can be excellent when you're tinkering in the workshop going through the days job cards, cup of tea in hand with the radio on. I was single bloke living hand to mouth and riding 10 miles each way via Worcestershire country lanes. I also worked at Madison, in inbound telesales, for which I move lock stock to Milton Keynes and that was a fairly decent wage with extremely good staff discount. However, I had a epiphany as it was 'never going to buy me a house'. I left the industry, went to uni as a mature student to do Computer Science and I now work as a self-employed developer and can afford the bike stuff I want.

One issue that I encountered a hell of a lot when working in shops, was that [i]some[/i] customers always want something for nothing. You know the kind, comes in and wants to spend no more then £250 on a bike that has to be used for commuting daily and for chucking down trails on a weekend. He also wants a helmet and lock thrown in and £10 off the retail price! I came across scenarios like this on a regular basis. Why do a lot of people think that there is some unwritten law that a bike should always be a deal? The bike should cost what it costs and if you want extras then you pay for them, this will then help (albeit in a small way) LBS's stay in business and not crucify the already stingy margin they get on bikes.

Someone has to be money out of the bike industry. Otherwise there would be no industry. Whilst it's fair to say most LBS owners aren't living the high life, some are doing very well, or are very comfortable at least.

I think a lot of people would like to paint a picture of the bike industry being populated almost exclusively by selfless volunteers, in it purely for the love, but you don't have to go very far up the ladder to see people who are multi millionaires.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh wait, were you being serious?

Whilst there are no doubt some very wealthy people right at the top, this

selfless volunteers, in it purely for the love

Is a lot closer than this

but you don't have to go very far up the ladder to see people who are multi millionaires.

IME

T-R sounds a rather fatalist view of things.

But the restaurant example is a good one. Last summer, my older son worked in a pub and for a law firm (internships). The former was in the minimum wage and long hours and v hard work. The later was well paid, long hours and hard mental work. He learnt a lot from both but the big lessons was the answer to his own question - blimey dad, working in a pub is much, much harder but the pay was awful.....

...ok, what are you going to choose....?

Ben not sure what is unique about bikes there? Although the car example is interesting eg VAG group - largely shared parts, shared labour/skills etc. so as the mechanic do you want to be servicing Audis or VWs????

I wouldnt recommend it as a career to anyone.

well i was thinking about this the other day as well in answer to my mates first question in our original conversation.

your bob. bobs finishing school - you dont have good qualifications - so your not going to uni.

You look at jobs for the unqualified and you see retail assistant 6.50P/H and you see - Builders labourer 6.50P/H

which are you going to choose - based on having no working knowledge of either industry.

Knowing what i know now - i would be the labourer all day long. How ever age 16 wanting the easy option id have probably been in the shop.

which is more likely to have prospects of a decent wage further down the line?

You look at jobs for the unqualified and you see retail assistant 6.50P/H and you see - Builders labourer 6.50P/H

In the South East builders labourers can earn significantly more than that.

fresh fish ? or experianced labourers .... anyway it was an example. in the south east your regular street begger probably makes more than 6.50p/h

I'm agreeing with your overall point, I would definitely encourage someone to go in the building trade rather than bike shops. There are exaggerations of the brickies on 60k per year down here but they all make a tidy sum.

If you're in a high-skilled knowledge job you'll probably be ok but a mid or low-skilled job and you're screwed. The job is either automated, gone abroad, taken by an immigrant or pays so low you can't afford to take it.

Equally - in high value knowledge economy jobs there are effectively no immigration controls. if the employee is valuable enough and the employer can pay the express processing fees, in most cases they can be at their desk within a month.

anyway...this is a side note to the main discussion...

I think if I personaly wanted to go back in to the bike industry (I realy wanted to stay when I was a mechanic but taking the time off to learn frame building I could not afford) I'd go the frame building and custom companetry route but also untilise my skills / tools and do ther small fabrication and engineering for other clients. diversification toD help cross subsidise. kind of like highpath engineering (if he is still going?)

but you don't have to go very far up the ladder to see people who are multi millionaires.

I know lots of people in the industry, from people who work part-time in bike charities to managing directors of big companies. Very, very few of them are multi millionaires. I don't think there's anyone in the industry with a yacht or private jet.

I'd go the frame building and custom companetry route but also untilise my skills / tools and do ther small fabrication and engineering for other clients

That's part of what I do, and while it's fun there's not a massive market for it. Becoming a niche framebuilder is a relatively popular thing nowadays - people go on a framebuilding course, design a fancy headbadge, grow a beard and get an Instagram account 😀

I'm kidding - a bit - but you have to look at why someone would ask you to build a frame for them instead of just buying off the shelf or going to one of the dozens of other builders. There's also the market of doing frame repairs and repainting, that's reasonable steady work, and there's building prototypes for independent inventors, that's a lot of work.

people go on a framebuilding course, design a fancy headbadge, grow a beard and get an Instagram account

Have yourself an internet Mr Cooper. 😆

I don't think there's anyone in the industry with a yacht

[img] [/img]

He's also had a few AC's.

Well it's a sailing dingy but is it a yacht ?

Still about £20k for one of them. In fairness he does win a lot in it...

bencooper

I know lots of people in the industry, from people who work part-time in bike charities to managing directors of big companies. Very, very few of them are multi millionaires. I don't think there's anyone in the industry with a yacht or private jet.

I don't doubt that at all, but just through happy accident over the last year and a bit I've seen more and more people (small brand owners, sponsored riders,designers) who's lifestyle/homes/car collections/etc etc have been fairly eye opening. I say by happy accident too because more than one these individuals really went out of their way to conceal it.

I don't know if you're being snarky or serious but a yacht or private jet would imply super rich, which isn't what I meant. However imo, if you've got a million pound house, half a million pounds worth or cars, and many other assorted toys to me that's at least a millionaire status.

I worked in bike shops for long enough and know first hand most (the vast majority) people are not wealthy. However there's this image or perception spread around that everyone is some how beneficent or altruistic in their motives and it should be noted for the sake of the debate at hand that some people are getting very very wealthy from the bike industry.

We get a few at bespoked who apply to exhibit before even making a frame(Website and head badge sorted)! Even the top UK custom builders with full order books are not rolling in it. Once you get past building a few for your mates/family earning a living exclusively is no walk in the park.

Well it's a sailing dingy but is it a yacht ?

Depends what argument you want to have:
a) that dingy racing is cheaper than owning a "yacht". My 'dinghy' cost more than the most expensive 'yacht' my parents ever owned.
b) that everyone in the industry is infact "selfless volunteers, in it purely for the love"
c) that the fact B isn't true is a good or bad thing.

It's like any industry, there's roles and positions for people of all levels, at the top end I imagine the CEO's are earning salaries on a par with companies of similar sizes in any other industry, if they're not I'd query their fitness to be CEO's!

My point was that the head of a British company manufacturing and exporting products clearly has enough spare cash to make me think he's earning a salary appropriate to that role.