[Closed] Life, Faith, Religion and a path to finding God?

talk to people, yes, I do that, but often I find that it only helps with the symptoms and not tackle the cause.
Sometimes life presents choices, often the easiest ones are the worst possible options and in moments of weakness it can be to easy to succumb to your personal failings.

Now as an example I have in the past seen myself fall towards the easiest, most harmful option, not because I wasn't aware that what I was doing was both wrong and harmful but because I felt lost and wanted a quick fix.

In a faith, currently of my own learning (as mentioned I'm not being preached to or blindly accepting anything, I'm questioning everything!) I do feel as though I could have the strength to do better, to live better and to ultimately be better.

But as I have already said, this is a journey, one of my own, one step and one day at a time, its bound to get rough sometimes but its better than the alternative!

have you got your eyes on a few alter boys then...
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The only thing Roman about me is my nose, and that's cos its roamin all over my face!

I strongly suspect there is more to life than the mundane world we see around us, but I'm never going to believe that the meaning of life, the universe and everything was exclusively revealed to some bloke in the Middle East to be passed on to the rest of us second hand.

There are many religions or faiths. Don't just pick the one with the best marketing.

oh I'm not, I understand marketing and can see through a lot of smoke n mirrors, this is a path, a life long journey I would expect, I know I have Faith, I just need to learn more to determine what is right for me. It's probably one of the most interesting challenges a man can take up...

what tires for God? Holy Rollers? 😉 😀

Try exploring Humanism.

Spongebob +1

I strongly suspect there is more to life than the mundane world we see around us

Dont know who you mean by "we" but dont count me in. Its anything but mundane to me.

TSY I find that my faith in humanity tends to be toppled on a daily basis!

Its anything but mundane to me.

Quite.

And if you're an atheist, fair enough, I'd be interested to know what you do when you simply can't MTFU?

I'm an atheist and I just tend to take the attitude that if I don't MTFU nobody else is going to do it for me. If this sounds over simplistic I can only say that I certainly don't think that a faith in some wider spiritual belief system will help me out of hard times. Good luck and hard work are all that counts when things are stacked against you.

I don't have any experience of organised religion having skillfully avoided it all my life so I wouldn't want to make any sweeping comments about the relative merits of different religious views. All I will say is that religion has always appeared very alien and very very outmoded to me. Witness the Popes recent comments regarding his tacit acceptance of condoms and the oppresive treatment of women that some religions seem to tolerate. Religion seems to be a very ancient social and political control mechanism that struggles to find a place, or value, in the modern world.

My view is that the most important decisions in life are normally the hardest ones to take and the easy answer or solution to any problem is very rarely the right one. If you want to be a better person the simplest thing you can do is be more open minded about the opportunities that you come across and to be more accepting in your dealings with other people. Why not try some voluntary work? Its a vastly under rated way of doing some good in some small way and it is very rewarding on an emotional level.

MrNutt - it may be all there is though...

MrNutt

Now as an example I have in the past seen myself fall towards the easiest, most harmful option, not because I wasn't aware that what I was doing was both wrong and harmful but because I felt lost and wanted a quick fix.

If you want absolution for making decision that you know at the time are wrong and harmfull. Then religion may be for you.
On the other hand I try not to make those poor choices however the responsibility for these choices is mine alone.
It sounds to me as if you are looking to be rescued from things for which you have responsibility.

Meaning of Life?

We are engaged in an endless Darwinian relay race with the object of handing the baton on to our offspring with the biggest advantage we can give them. No more no less.

Of course advantage is a word that open to all sorts of interpretation 😉

"at 36, as a debauched "sinner", whom for years has felt at odds with the world, who has sought solace in drink, drugs, women & and pretty much everything else available in excess, I actually think I am taking the first tentative steps to heal the scars and become a better man."

I have no religion. I set (within the context of the society I live in) my own rules and standards. I decide who I wish to be. Some people believe you cannot have standards and decency or be a good or better person unless you have a religion. The expectation is to need to have a god to fear or to please so you 'have' to keep to the rules - or go to hell when dead etc.

Its not true. Anyone can be a good person, a better person, without a god. Its a question of choice. Who do you want to be? Set your own rules and be a decent person just for yourself, for your own satisfaction and pride.

Many people seem to turn to a god when leaving additions of drugs, alcohol, abusive situations etc (not implying you are one of these). Maybe it works for them, but its exchanging one addiction/obsession for another and finding another place to hide, rather than dealing with the 'why' of why you do things you are not happy with and having the inner personal strength to step away from them without still leaning on a prop.

Whatever, I hope your life goes well.

maybe, but if what gives me strength to make the right choices turns out to have been but an imaginary friend then I've not lost anything, wouldn't you agree?

[i]if you're an atheist, fair enough, I'd be interested to know what you do when you simply can't MTFU?[/i]

I used relax by going to my allotment and tend the vegetables, but the guy who owns the plot next to me has started digging up my spuds and claiming their his, and it's all got a bit fraught.

what gives me strength to make the right choices

You have to admit that its a bit of a worry if yer imaginary friend tells you to start buggering choirboys though?

surfer & goon

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mundane

mun·dane? ?
[muhn-deyn, muhn-deyn]
–adjective
1.
of or pertaining to this world or earth as contrasted with heaven; worldly; earthly: mundane affairs.
2.
common; ordinary; banal; unimaginative.
3.
of or pertaining to the world, universe, or earth.

I used the word as number 1.
I share your opinion that the world of natural wonders doesn't fit with number 2.

maybe, but if what gives me strength to make the right choices turns out to have been but an imaginary friend then I've not lost anything, wouldn't you agree?

Maybe your dignity and intellectual backbone but thats up to you.

I used the word as number 1.

contrasted with heaven? oh ok then 🙄

"Maybe your dignity and intellectual backbone but thats up to you."
Why do threads like this always come down to condescension and petty abuse? If someone expresses faith or a belief in something that you dont share, why does it make them intellectually inferior to you? Live and let live FFS.

If someone expresses faith or a belief in something that you dont share, why does it make them intellectually inferior to you? Live and let live FFS.

I didnt actually say it did. I answered this question.

maybe, but if what gives me strength to make the right choices turns out to have been but an imaginary friend then I've not lost anything, wouldn't you agree?

Which I stand by and applies to anyone who is prepared to "cover their bases" in such a way.

I also really hope this doesnt turn into the usual STW bashing.

Mr Nutt I think its really refreshing to see such honesty, perhaps thats why the threads been quite mature!

Id echo what Xc-Steve has said, having just been along to an Alpha Course i think they are a good way to find out for yourself. They are of course run by people who believe what they say so there is a level of bias from that point of view but ive found that the hardest thing to argue with is peoples own experiences. I really enjoyed learning about people and their own journeys. It was a good place to help work things out in my own mind as to what i believe, or what id like to find out about more.

have fun, and try not to get too bogged down with stuff! Ride that bike.

Too literal ?
OK, I'll try again.

Anyone can see and touch the mundane, or physical, world around them.
Many people, including me, suspect that there might be a bit more to it than that.
It might be a god or goddess. It might be nature spirits, or Gaia.
It might be that there is no more to it and what we see really is all there is.

Whatever it is, I don't trust anyone who claims to have some sort of exclusive access to the answer.

You might also have a quick look at these [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00vkk77 ]The Big Silence[/url] 3 recent half hour programs - I've seen the first and got the other two recorded - facinating stuff. You may not go for the the God bit, but I think the idea of the ever increasing wave of "noise" of all sorts blocking out whatever's buried inside us - soul call it what you will - makes sense.

a convinced sceptic..

Too literal ?

Quite the opposite. You are using a definition that appears rellevant to something that doesnt exist.

What you said, surfer, was that by choosing to explore his 'faith', then he stood to lose his dignity and intellectual backbone. I think that was fairly clear.

What you said, surfer, was that by choosing to explore his 'faith', then he stood to lose his dignity and intellectual backbone. I think that was fairly clear.

I've made it as clear as I can I cant make it clearer for you.

You dont need to make it any clearer.

What you said, surfer, was that by choosing to explore his 'faith', then he stood to lose his dignity and intellectual backbone. I think that was fairly clear.

That may be what you read into what surfer said but I read that anyone who bases their religious belief/faith on Pascals Wager does lack a bit of backbone. Please don't read this as my saying that all those who have relgious belief/faith are lacking in backbone as that is not what I'm saying, nor is it what I think that surfer was saying.

Fair enough...

If someone expresses faith or a belief in something that you dont share, why does it make them intellectually inferior to you? Live and let live FFS.

When did anyone suggest that the OP was intellectually inferior to anyone? I think suggesting that the discovery that ones belief system is constructed round an imaginary friend as being inconsequential by the OP is quite reasonably picked up by myself with real life pitfalls, and by surfer with slightly more nebulous potential problems. That is not the same as calling Mr Nutt intellectualy stunted or a philiosophical pygmy...... personally I find it difficult to understand why the sole argument propogated when the lack of logic or reason behind religious belief is challenged is that somehow by disagreeing with that belief in fairy tales one is lacking in objectivity or wit.

Oh right then, your comments 'buggering choirboys' and 'imaginary friend' were objective and witty then?

Oh right then, your comments 'buggering choirboys' and 'imaginary friend' were objective and witty then?

There is overwhleming evidence that the former was commonplace within the Roman Catholic church and the term "imaginary friend" would appear, again based on evidence (or the lack of) to be an accurate description.

Witty is open to interpretation.

Read the post Mitch

The Op said:-

maybe, but if what gives me strength to make the right choices turns out to have been but an [b]imaginary friend[/b] then I've not lost anything, wouldn't you agree?

To which I pointed out:-

You have to admit that its a bit of a worry if yer imaginary friend tells you to start buggering choirboys though?

Which in case you missed it is a real and current concern directly involving one of the largest organised religions in the world. i.e. yes harm bloody well can be harm done! Seems to me poignant and appropriate in the circumstances of the debate. More so in that the OP is obviously seeking some form of direction in his life. I think it would be more than slightly unhelpful to avoid mentioning some of the obvious pitfalls and precipices that he would appear to be heading for.

So whats your point?

I already made the point that you dont need permission from anyone to be a better person. I'll add to that by saying you dont need organised religion in order to attain that, either. However, as soon as anyone on here starts to talk about 'faith', it becomes a free for all and an excuse to belittle and insult people. I have never attempted to force my beliefs on anybody else, nor have I ever criticised anyone whose belefs differ from my own. (edit) I'm only too aware, as are most people, that the Catholic church has a lot to answer for regarding paedophilia, but lets be clear, these acts were never committed in the name of religion, the perpetrators simply hid behind their positions of power, and the church shamefully swept things under the carpet and did nothing.

Chapeau to the Op for an honest question into faith and its attendant problems.

I think the issues raised are massive and an open mind and thoughtful approach is warranted. I've got an awful lot from reading Kirkegaard, Nietzsche and a few others in the 'big hitters' camp, as well as C.S. Lewis from the Christian apologists.

I don't think the 'imaginary friend' angle is particularly helpful as it is neither particularly perceptive or a true reflection of theology nor is the 'atheists are moral too' oft quoted line. Neither are robust arguments and since our perception is such a flawed medium it is difficult to establish any fundamental truths about the world outside of our own heads.

Religion and Spirituality are not necessarily the same thing nor are they exclusive, explore them both with humility and an open mind a decide for yourself....

Here endeth the lesson, go in pieces...

I don't think the 'imaginary friend' angle is particularly helpful as it is neither particularly perceptive or a true reflection of theology

I think you will find it is.

nor is the 'atheists are moral too' oft quoted line

What do you mean by this?

Neither are robust arguments and since our perception is such a flawed medium it is difficult to establish any fundamental truths about the world outside of our own heads.

This is rubbish. A starving child has a perception of reality based on its empty stomach and the pain it feels. By saying that perception is flawed to in some way draw a parralel and legitimise faith is a bit poor really.

However, as soon as anyone on here starts to talk about 'faith', it becomes a free for all and an excuse to belittle and insult people

As before caller, who is belittling or insulting people? As far as I can see you are having a good go at doing so to surfer and me, I don't think either he nor I are doing so to the OP. simply pointing out the obvious flaws in his argument.

Actually I've just read this tosh

these acts were never committed in the name of religion

I'm am atheist, but more of an Anglican style one, tea and biscuits rather than burning religious tomes.

Life is like climbing Everest sometimes; all you can do is hang on and breathe. Every now and then you get to see what makes it 'worthwhile' as if we need something to make it so.

It's a glorious, messy, frustrating, disappointing, disasterous farce most of the time, but I can't see that having it explained by any form of religion, or using any form of 'faith' whatever that may be is going to make it any different.

Any even vaguely intellectual approach to religion and spirituality and faith would reveal the way religion has developed as a purely social construct; tribal societal rules to make my tribe better than yours.

I think if you go looking hard enough, you will find that there actually isn't anything there.

I am afraid that I am not having some navel gazing moderate as a best man and the invitation is revoked. Call me when you pulled yourself together.

Here endeth the lesson, go in pieces...

But yes spirituality and religion are two different things
- the former should be about faith whilst the latter tends to be about control and thus power and power corrupts...

mitch and other rational atheists, and you religious types that don't want to force it upon anyone else...
Come and join me in my humanist utopia.

It's gonna be grand I tell thee.

Come and join me in my humanist utopia.

[Prances through the orchard wearing finger-bells] Wait for meeeee

Religion - it's all a big comfort blanket. To me that's obvious.
Death? - you're not going to be eaten by worms and cease to exist
Suffering? - Pray, there's [i]someone[/i] listening
Stressed? - you don't need to talk to those little [i]friends[/i] of yours with their little helpful [i]words[/i]: There's [i]something[/i] much more powerful overlooking us all.
Directionless? - follow [i]these[/i] rules.
Lacking understanding? - This stuff was all [i]created[/i]
etc. etc. etc.

I was at a funeral last week of a bloke my own age who died of cancer. The vicar says "No-one can explain why he died"... and in the next breath "God knows how many hairs are on each of your heads". If that is not obviously comfort by fantasy, I don't know what is.