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If that's what you wanna do Tominalis, and it's part of who you are, so be it...
Personally there's no place for hippy ship in my life.
humanism +1
b'mitch seems like he'd make a good a humanist too... you can be my plus one to TSY's party 😀
i suspect there's quite a lot of humanists on here that dont even realise it 😀
jsut one question TSY.... will there be jelly?
The imaginary friend tack is flawed in that perception of reality is a relative experience. If you rely solely on physical input to derive a image of the real then that is subject to all of the errors and tricks the mind and senses are capable of. It could be argued that a perception of god is a trick but by the same token perception of love is also a trick or even of touch, taste and ultimately logical process is merely the same trick - i.e. physical/ electro-magnetic reactions causing a false image in consciousness.
The 'atheists are moral' point I was making is that of course atheists can be 'moral' but in a hard-materialist structure those morals are utterly relative and, ultimately meaningless. You can have as many morals as you like but they are neither good nor evil, in fact they cease to be morals, they are just fabricated rules to make life more palatable, a comfort blanket like a god or ultimate reason. They may make a society work but only a specific form of society that has been deemed good for whatever reason that group has come up with.
The starving child analogy is a good one. Yes the child perceives the pain but in reductionist terms that pain is merely a series of nervous impulses, if we take this further, the child is a collection of fundamental particles reacting to one another it could be argued that the pain the child feels is the inevitable consequence of the universe existing at all and as to whether it carries any moral weight is neither here nor there - it simply is.
If we assume that there is no 'other state' of existence, the spiritual or the transcendent then we are left with a physical only world. If that is the case then morality, goodness or worth are all ultimately fabricated for our own satisfaction. If the starving child dies then nothing has changed, the world is ultimately the same, nothing has left, merely changed state.
Faith could be the perception of something else, outside of the material, or it could be a trick but both situations require us to address the nature of reality - or ignore the issue.
Personally there's no place for hippy ship in my life.
I shall place flowers in your hair and embellish your limbs with images of the sun in henna.
Ting ting ting ting...
you know that one grand you were going to spend in evans torm.... can i suggest you spend it on soap, a haircut and a suit so you can get a job you dirty hippy scum!!!!!
(i miss my dreadlocks... calling other people hippies felt better when i had dreads)
"these acts were never committed in the name of religion, the perpetrators simply hid behind their positions of power, and the church shamefully swept things under the carpet and did nothing."
Sorry, but I dont feel belittled. What I stated is in my mind, the truth. The religion is not going to take responsibility, no matter how much you or I feel it should. The acts committed had sod all to do with religion, the church and the position that these people were in simply allowed them to cover up what they were doing. And please, dont play the victim simply because I took objection to the manner in which you were trying to put your points across. Fair enough, you make it clear that you dont believe in God, etc, and that's fine and dandy, I really have no problem with that. What I do object to is the almost immediate reference to paedophilia, and the repeated use of the phrase 'imaginary friend' - which, and forgive me if I'm being overly sensitive, might just be seen as condescending?
b'mitch seems like a humanist too
Definitely.
i suspect there's quite a lot of humanists on here that dont even realise it
Absolutely.
Didn't even realise I was until it was pointed out to me. Citing SlaughterHouse5 as a massive influence might have been a clue though.
will there be jelly?
Yes, and not that rubbish stuff that you Mum put fruit in when you were a kid. It will be pure unadulterated jelly.
soap to work scheme? Might be hard to pull off.
I could however do with a haircut. A chap at work called me a hippy. I punched him. He doesn't think I am a hippy any more. 🙂
[i]If we assume that there is no 'other state' of existence, the spiritual or the transcendent then we are left with a physical only world. If that is the case then morality, goodness or worth are all ultimately fabricated for our own satisfaction[/i]
Precisely. And therefore the comfort blanket of "belief" is needed.
Morality, goodness and worth are all part of the human conscience. I have faith in my own mind.
The acts committed had sod all to do with religion, the church and the position that these people were in simply allowed them to cover up what they were doing.
I'm sorry but that is a cop out and a complete abdication of responsibility.
whilst you were praying and seeking spiritual enlightenment OP I think Monkeeknutz stole your stash and necked it.
Life has....this does not require soulnothing has left
It seems a strange argument to level at religious institution that they covered up child abuse. Either Catholicism is an evil, power grubbing, uber-club; in which case covering up this sort of thing is par for the course or it is just a load of people in which case I imagine they did what most criminals do and try to hide their crimes. Child abuse is no more prevalent in the Catholic church than in wider society, lots of people are horrid, religious or not.
We could say 'aren't people awful the way they try to cover up their atrocious activity'.
sorry TSY, whilst searching for a handy internet link to provide a concise description of humanism for the ones who aren't aware... i realised it specifies that its based in atheism and agnosticism, so i edited it.
funnily enough i realised the world of humanism through my exploration of the joseph cambell stuff me and torm were on about earlier in this thread 🙂
mum didnt put fruit in jelly when i was young 🙁 twas all razor blades and fish bones back in them days!
Life... that's a weird one... what makes that go then?
The point I was making was that physically nothing has changed, there are no more or less atoms, molecules, particles etc than there were before so what's changed? I agree life has ended but reality has only altered state not disappeared. One inter-reaction between physical entities has become another one, is this good, bad or indifferent?
DezB - faith in your own mind is no more or less irrational than faith in god then. If belief is necessary than fine and dandy but why is one thing better than another? Can we all have faith in your mind or is it every man for himself? And if my mind suggests something awful is moral can I go and do it with your blessing?
"I'm sorry but that is a cop out and a complete abdication of responsibility."
For whom? The individuals who commited the acts, and the people who assisted in covering up those acts, should all be tried and brought to justice. Where did I say otherwise?
Monkeynutz your contribution is nothing but obfuscation attemting to intelectualise the subject of faith.
Attempting to elevate your morals over that of an atheist is stagering considering adherents to the Catholic faith apparently get theirs from a reading of the first testament. The same text that advocates genocide, infanticide and group rape.
Fortunately modern day values and morals are derived from more than this hence our ability to determine "what is is good in the good book"
If these morals allow us to avoid war, treat each other equally and with dignity (something religions was so far been unable to do )then I will accept your definition that they are "meaningless" Successfull practical application makes them desirable over faith based ones any day.
phil - I'm going to do some research on the subject tonight.
I like the fact that you can be a humanist and accept that religion is in the nature of other humans and can so accept that they need it.
You can know that their is no 'higher being' but that the practice of religion and the ability to defer to something else is useful for some.
Come with me children, it's gonna be great.
erm..I'm not a Catholic, I suppose a practicing agnostic with theistic leanings, and I think the suggestion that I'm trying to elevate my morals over anyone is a little sensitive.
I think I'm trying to make the point that a hard materialist out look presents its own issues. What do you mean successful practical application? That species preservation is the dominant driving force in morality? If this is the case why not pursue hard line Utilitarianism and preserve our species with some rational weeding out of undesirable elements?
I'm curious as to how we, as a people, come to robust moral choices with out an ultimate reality and how we justify a universal reality.
As to the obfuscation in order to intellectualize a question of faith I counter that you are simply ignoring the ramifications of a materialist outlook to bolster a pretty poor philosophical stance.
[url= http://www.humanism.org.uk/humanism ]Start HERE[/url] TSY.
although in addition to this "the heros journey" (dont remember it being longer than an hour long) about Joseph cambell is well worth investing a little time into, shame he died as i think he'd be a better spokesperson for humanism than dawkins who comes across as a little patronising at times and could do with stepping back emotionally from the subject when challenged.
Can you be a humanist if you don't like lots of people?
I've experimented a lot and believe I'm a hedonistic stoic.
Follow me....
[i]DezB - faith in your own mind is no more or less irrational than faith in god then. If belief is necessary than fine and dandy but why is one thing better than another? Can we all have faith in your mind or is it every man for himself?[/i]
Blimey, I guess you are mixing it up with the higher being thing. Must be confusing for you!
loved reading your post monkeenutz, very well thought out!
Can you be a humanist if you don't like lots of people?
iDave, I barely like anyone 😆 But I do believe that there is an intrinsic good in many, even those I find intolerable.
They're all welcome in my, errr, 'church' though.
Can you be a humanist if you don't like lots of people?I've experimented a lot and believe I'm a hedonistic stoic.
Follow me....
I'm in idave, with the proviso that it doesn't harm anyone or impact negatively on other living things and I don't have to sleep with you!
course you can iDave 😀 i hate people, the thought of other humans makes this pathetic-human-skin-meat that surrounds my inner-being crawl.
but i'm a humanist, with maybe a leaning towards awesomism
I think Monkeeknutz is spot on and has explained his thoughts learly enough.
Unfortunately the ones who could do with thinking about some of the points made tend to talk rather than listen.
Good luck to the OP though and at least the subject was discussed for a little while before the bell rang for playtime. 🙂
Sigh.... I'm not trying to convert anyone or make out that god definitely exists but point out that materialism and atheism have some issues that need addressing before we can start slinging round phrases like 'imaginary friend' and people with a 'faith' are all swivel eyed cretins.
And I've definitely not mixed you up with a higher being. 😀
I was always a questioning agnostic. Married a Christian (in a church) and was quite happy to embrace the church, but perhaps not in the same way she did due to her being brought up in a Christian household, but I was willing to be shown that there was something in it.
One month after our wedding she was diagnosed with breast cancer, two years later she died.
After a great deal of soul searching with her family (mine aren't religious), clinical depression, attempted suicide and finally the removal of my head from up my arse I am now a fully paid up Atheist.
If there is a god, how can a god that is supposed to love us (his children) keep destroying our lives? I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who, when something bad happens think exactly this, personally I cannot let myself believe this. If I do, it eats me up inside and all I do is hate something that, to be honest, isn’t worth my time and energy hating. So, as a result, I am spiritually devoid.
It is only human to try and find a reason for something that happens that cannot be explained, In reality, shit happens. To you, to me, to small children, to innocent mothers walking in the park, sometimes there is no rhyme or reason as to why bad things happen.
And, and this is a big AND, if there is a god why would I want to align myself to something that lets all this shit happen. And please don't insult me by giving me all that nonsense about free will and choice, it is an excuse for religious leaders to pass the buck. I often joke with friends that I want to be buried with a baseball bat, because if there is a god out there somewhere, I’m after him big style
In response to the OP's question about MTFU, I let myself believe for too long that something or someone had it in for me and that I had done something, or my wife had done something that had let this happen. As I said before, shit happens. It isn’t a case of MTFU, you just learn to accept it. I’m pretty much at peace with the world, ok, I still have a few issues, but they are usually with tangible physical beings (I hate politicians), not your imaginary friend,
On a slightly more humorous point, I’ve been lucky enough to meet someone else who I think the world of and who thinks the world of me. But, if there is a god and heaven and all that, my wife will already be there. I’m an Atheist so I’m not going at all. My GF is a Christian, so she’s going to be up there too at some point. Being a bit big headed, neither one of them would want to spend eternity without me, so do I get a guest pass or something? And if I do, do I spend a week with each, how will it work? I bet the two of them will talk about me behind my back anyway!!
Child abuse is no more prevalent in the Catholic church than in wider society, lots of people are horrid, religious or not
Well yes but if your main job is to be a moral authority, save souls , preach about living a good sin free life and to live by a moral code goiven by your maker and you fail to do that by sexually molesting children - which is a very big fail in the scheme of things. Then your boss notices and covers it up so the institute is not harmed and then posts you elsewhere to avoid a scandal then that does reflect on the Church as a moral authority.
Life... that's a weird one... what makes that go then?
Death
I counter that you are simply ignoring the ramifications of a materialist outlook to bolster a pretty poor philosophical stance.
My argument is edit: NOT materialistic and my interest is in the practical application of faith, the ramifications that that has on society. The misplacing of wealth and disproportionate respect and power we allow to its followers. I might add the impact that it has on the welfare of mankind given its ability to stymie embryonic research etc.
By trying to make it into a philosophical argument, which you have done just clouds the issues that we face today, I am not interested in debating an afterlife and the fervent followers of faith seem to agree given their attempts to gain both economic and political power on earth as oppose to waiting !
Why did you refer to atheist morals as "meaningless" as an agnostic where is your frame of reference?(although how that can be practiced eludes me)
I like that fact that everyone is just talking about 'the god' which (from the way it's worded) would be the Abrahamic one true god (allegedly).
Where's the room for Vishnu or his more recognisable avatar Harry Krishna, Shiva,
what about the old relgion such as Odin, Thor, the Dagda or Brigid, - all this ties in a lot more with Campbell's hero with a thousand faces.
Or the humanists might want to look at Universal Unitarianism and what does String Theory hold for the atheists...
I think mavisto's post sums up the arguments going on in this thread quite well; bad things happen to good people and sadly none of it makes any sense in the grand scheme of things.
I love this thread, every month it pops up and causes no end of mischief and everyone leaves it believing exactly what they always believed. I'm planning to recant my atheism on my death bed FTW.
Or the humanists might want to look at Universal Unitarianism and what does String Theory hold for the atheists...
Why?
MrNutt - reading the bible on it's own can be hard work sometimes.
I'd recommend these two books as being very good reads:
[url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blokes-Bible-Dave-Hopwood/dp/1850787123 ]The Bloke's Bible by Dave Hopwood
[/url]
and
[url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shack-Wm-Paul-Young/dp/0340979496 ]The Shack by Wm Paul Young[/url]
Ian
I like that fact that everyone is just talking about 'the god' which (from the way it's worded) would be the Abrahamic one true god (allegedly).
You may want to include those who believe in a "god" however as an atheist its immaterial to me what god other people beleive in.
I was initialy interested as all cultures and human civilistaions have some form of God /religion/diety.There seesm to be something in the human condition /psyche that means we seek meaning /patterns everywhere and we have to have a reason for everything/ God/religion/ deities are a simple one to create but very difficult to counter /disprove.
DaRC_L... i was hoping someone would bring this up but reluctant to myself as i didnt want an already imflammatory thread to explode by mentioning other religions :S
Or the humanists might want to look at Universal Unitarianism and what does String Theory hold for the atheists...
one of the things i like about most humanists i've met is that some of them are open minded enough to challenge their veiws/lack of views 🙂
quantumn physics opens up a whole world that atheism would struggle with i think, especially as most atheists i've spoken to rely heavily on the word of current scientific knowledge as if its the gospel truth... dawkins, despite his protests, would probably end up in a hospital being looked after by me and b'mitch if science proved darwin wrong lol.
one of the most appealing things about Joseph Cambell is that he made a point of reminding everyone that both religion and science are trying to interpret the world around them and as science develops, ideas change and our level of understanding does. unfortunately a lot of atheists are as closed minded as they accuse the religious of being and forget that their understanding of the world should develop and change as scientific evidence dictates.
i love quantumn stuff, it sets my brain alight and makes me constantly re-think my views on the world/space around me... the one thing it doesnt challenge though is my view on mankind, that will hopefully continue to change and develop as i grow.
"dawkins, despite his protests, would probably end up in a hospital being looked after by me and b'mitch if science proved darwin wrong lol."
What a beautiful thought 😆
Junkyard - Member
I was initialy interested as all cultures and human civilistaions have some form of God /religion/diety.There seesm to be something in the human condition /psyche that means we seek meaning /patterns everywhere and we have to have a reason for everything/ God/religion/ deities are a simple one to create but very difficult to counter /disprove
🙂 you know when something seems like complete common sense and you dont know why someone hasn't made a point of it before that you're aware of...
well that's the "finally... how could anyone argue differently now someone's bothered to gather evidence for this simple blinding truth" moment i experience when i got into Joseph Cambell. He's written lots of stuff, but "the hero with a thousand faces" is definitely the book for you sir
[i]dawkins, despite his protests, would probably end up in a hospital being looked after by me and b'mitch if science proved darwin wrong lol.[/i]
If Darwin was wrong we'd still be flicking Holy water at people and exorcising them. Don't forget, atheists can be nurses too.
There seesm to be something in the human condition /psyche that means we seek meaning /patterns everywhere and we have to have a reason for everything/ God/religion/ deities are a simple one to create but very difficult to counter /disprove
Now I'm not saying that Scientology is a religion, because having read the actual history L Ron Hubbard, it is obviously the dellusions of a third rate Sci Fi writer, but it just goes to show what can be created from the mind of one man, believed by a few misguided people, and now cannot be disproved!
Cheers Phil - will try and get it from the library. I used to call people hippy when I had my dreads 🙄
quantumn physics opens up a whole world that atheism would struggle with
I think even quantum physicists struggle with this but what exactly do you think they have found that proves god. Confusion?
dawkins, despite his protests, would probably end up in a hospital being looked after by me and b'mitch if science proved darwin wrong lol
BS he is a scientist he would accept the evidence if it existed. Does it? Science can do paridigm shifts only those of faith, cannot have their opinion altered by facts and evidence - ah well at least both sides are mocking each other now.
If Darwin was wrong we'd still be flicking Holy water at people and exorcising them. Don't forget, atheists can be nurses too.
not quite sure how to read into that post, maybe im sleepy but it feels like i've perhaps presented myself as saying drwin was wrong?
i'm not saying darwin was wrong 🙂 just trying to think of an example to make my point.
(if it helps I'm an atheist humanist and my entire right leg is tattooed with sea creatures that show the evolution of the ocean.... i'm a firm "believer" in evolution, but then again, if science proved it wrong in the future i'd like to think i was open minded enough to entertain a new school of thought)