[Closed] Life and 45 years for Lee Rigby killers

Is that Life PLUS 45 years? IE like silly US sentences. Or one got life and the other 45 years?

one got life, the other 45 years.

Yes, they may get a bit more justice inside as well.

They both got life

One a 'whole life' tariff meaning he'll never be released, the other has a minimum term of 45 years. Doesn't mean he will be released in 45 years though, just the earliest it would be considered.

I don't suppose they'll last that long inside though

I'm sure they'll fall in with a radical-islam gang who'll look after them. Or maybe I've been watching too many american super-prison documentaries.

I shall extra enjoy my beer tonight.
My thoughts are with Lee Rigby's family though.

Maybe they should serve their sentences in an Military prison?

Just a thought!

This case brings up the debate for the death sentence.
I realise this would make them martyrs but would save 45 years of jail cell cost
There is no doubt these guys are guilty and the money saved could be given to disabled children/cancer patients/whoever.

I'd rather they spent their lives in prison than got the martyrdom they wanted.

They can die old and toothless in their own shit.

I agree to some extent iolo, they serve absolutely no purpose to humanity at all.

They can die old and toothless in their own shit.

D`you mind, I am drinking me brew !!

I'd say that feels about right to me too.

Nice crowd outside the court:

[img] [/img]

Seems the trial of nutters attracts nutters as well....

I would imagine that they'll spend most of their miserable lives in solitary, because it's obvious that there will be inmates with shivs looking to be the one who offs them.
And I really doubt that they'll be allowed to have contact with other radical Islamists.

Whichever side you are instinctively on, this case has to be one of the clearest arguments for the reinstatement of capital punishment.

no veiled virgins waiting for em now....... 😆

hopefully every day will be a painfull miserable one for them both.

At last, a judge who reads the Daily Mail! 🙂

Didn't they claim to be "soldiers of Allah"?

Surely then, they should be going to Colchester military prison?

If they'd knocked him off his bike they'd have walked free.

That photo above; what kind of copper wears red & white?

Whichever side you are instinctively on, this case has to be one of the clearest arguments for the reinstatement of capital punishment.

Instinctively I am against retribution as a form of punishment, so to me this adds nothing to the argument for the reinstatement of capital punishment.

A civilised society does not kill.

I can't do anything to stop the warmongers, but I will not ever support a return to barbaric treatment of the population in the name of justice.

Well said.

Fair enough Nick, I personally don't have those reservations. One of the most common arguments against capital punishment in my mind is - can you be sure the suspect actually did it. In this case, no such issue.

I am undecided on the capital punishment debate and can see both arguments.

However I truly despise these two particular men, I feel comfortable saying I would like their lives to be ended for what they did .

Given the lilly-livered do gooder in this country I sadly predict Michael Adebolajo (whole-life term) will not die in prison and Michael Adebowale (45 yrs minimum) will serve less than 25-30 years.

I haven't been a fan of bringing back the death sentence, as the police arn't trust worthy but this case has changed my mind forever.

To-night my thoughts are with Lee's widow and family <3

Well it looks like justice has beaten my expectations 🙂

Jambourgie - the City of London mob wear that red and white hat band I think.

They should be hung save the tax paying public funding there stay in our prisons any longer.

I'd say stick them against a wall and I'll shoot them but TBH it's too good for them. I wouldn't bat an eyelid doing the deed. Total scum.

Given the lilly-livered do gooder in this country I sadly predict Michael Adebolajo (whole-life term) will not die in prison and Michael Adebowale (45 yrs minimum) will serve less than 25-30 years.

I'm sure all the usual STW Guardian readers will be along shortly to explain why these poor boys are actually the real victims! 🙂

However I truly despise these two particular men, I feel comfortable saying I would like their lives to be ended for what they did .

so would I, which is why I'm glad we have judges and laws that help take emotion out of sentencing and we dont have the death penalty. I would sink to their level but we as a country wont.

These 2 moronic attention seekers should never see the light of day again.. I couldn't even watch the news after this happened as the thought of that poor man being hacked to death made me sick to the stomach.. Still does!

I'm not a violent or nasty person by any means but words can't describe the hate I feel for the mindless thugs, I'd quite happily spend half an hour locked in a room with both of them and dish out the pain and thoughtless act of pure evil they put another human being through..

I hope they get their comeuppance in jail and die a slow painful death.

I raise a beer to the two heroines. More balls than many a man. Thank you.

As for the two disfunctional losers who found a plastic cause? Meh. Bye.

but I will not ever support a return to barbaric treatment of the population in the name of justice.

In what way is it a return to (the) barbaric treatment of the population ?
Its not the population committing these sorts of crime, it is individuals who have deliberately gone about the vile murder of a fellow human being.

The British version of the death penalty was very clean and humane, surely a lifetime of imprisonment and the sheer misery that it must entail is far more barbaric than 22 days on death row followed by a quick drop resulting in a proven instantaneous death.

a_a, I couldn't have put it better. I despise what they did, I despise them for it but I don't want to be part of a society that executes for revenge.

My Instinct says this is about right, they will grow very old in jail, will spend a good amount of time in solitary and will not get the martyrdom they desire. I also suspect they'll get a pasting or 2 as well which I for one would not object to. Nick puts my thoughts on capital punishment much better than I ever could as well.

Credit where it is due, good work British justice system.

as far as I can tell, the life tarriff in this case means just that and 45 years is the minimum he will serve before being considered for release. the court s delayed sentencing as the european court was saying that the life tarriff was against human rights laws, this was rejected and thus the sentencing was today. good riddance btw..

I'm sure executing them would do wonders for the recruitment process of certain factions.

iolo - Member

This case brings up the debate for the death sentence.
I realise this would make them martyrs but would save 45 years of jail cell cost
There is no doubt these guys are guilty and the money saved could be given to disabled children/cancer patients/whoever.

In the States at least, it is claimed that death row costs considerably more than whole life terms.

Another vote for a long, shitty, boring existence with minimal human contact here.

You don't want to give somebody who believes in some utopic afterlife a shortcut. They can bloody well earn their heavenly reward.

Whichever side you are instinctively on, this case has to be one of the clearest arguments for the reinstatement of capital punishment.

This sort of bullshit makes me sick to my stomach, I'm hoping you're a troll but think you might actually believe this.

Killing people is wrong so let's show how wrong it is by killing people, is that the logic?

In the States at least, it is claimed that death row costs considerably more than whole life terms.

Thats because in the states many death row prisoners spend up to 20 years on death row and probably incur large legal fees.

Cost is not an argument really.

Doesn't change my view on capital punishment one bit.

Why would it?

Much worse crimes are committed, of course the publicity and videos of this one get the mouth frothers going, as ever.

Joolsburger - steady on.

I have been measured and non-emotive in my discussion on this topic. Read my other posts.

In a way execution is too good for these idiots. They'll be shouting about the afterlife and all the virgins in paradise they'll be with. So let them wait as long as possible and with any luck some excruciating painful natural death awaits them in old age.

Meanwhile while the 2 are locked up for life, who's going to be looking after their sons/daughters of which I'm told are several?? What father figures they are hey? Let's hope the kids aren't going to turn out like their fathers.

"I'm sure executing them would do wonders for the recruitment process of certain factions."

Im a youth, Im idle. Did **** all at school. Its the local Chicken shop or the dole for life.

Then I realise I can get instant respect and prestige in alot of my community INSTANTLY if I convert to radical Islam. The dole is now the westerners problem- they fund me. Idiots.

See? Almost instant 'respect' and a way out of having to work hard and long hours like normal good Muslims and Christians.

See? Execution would never happen here so theres many many youths who welcome radicalisation as a lazy fast track to respect/life purpose.

The 70 Virgin-types tend to be the low IQ more vunerable types IMO

This case brings up the debate for the death sentence.

What then would we use as a deterrent against suicide bombers?

The thing is tomkerton is that there is no argument for reinstating the death penalty that this case has over any other bar lots of mobile phone footage and a religious motivation. Neither of which are really relevant to the sentencing.

There's cases of child abduction and murder that probably have a far more emotive force behind them but we shouldn't pass sentence or legislation based solely. on how we feel about it.

They'll be shouting about the afterlife and all the virgins in paradise they'll be with.

You know, I never really understood why that was such a compelling reward. Given the option of eternal life with 72 virgins, or with three or four right trollops, I know which I'd be opting for.

Within those 72 virgins could be some real gems.

Anyway I thought it was 70 virgins? Do they appreciate inline with inflation?

I have sad nothing whatsoever regarding the religious aspect. You have assumed that about me. It is in no way relevant to my argument.

I said quite clearly that the swaying argument for me here is that there can be no discussion about the guilt of these men. One of the best arguments against capital punishment is a miscarriage of justice that results in the death of the accused.

I am surprised that what I thought was a measured and thought out argument has upset some more than some of the posts on this thread!

I'll stick to gassing about bikes on here.

I'm sure that one translation is raisins.

Anyway, lock up, lob key down the drain. No martyrdom. No 'honour'. Only justice, fair and decent.

You know, I never really understood why that was such a compelling reward. Given the option of eternal life with 72 virgins, or with three or four right trollops, I know which I'd be opting for.

Trollops 🙂 Hadn't heard that expression in years. Anyway, trollops ( preferable Yorkshire trollops ) get my vote over 72 virgins any day of the week!

Bring back the penal colony. And send that one punch killer aswell.

good, let them rot painfully away for the rest of their lives

be nice if tony bliar got brought to account also but can't see that happening any time soon

One of the best arguments against capital punishment is a miscarriage of justice that results in the death of the accused.

Perhaps, but "easy way out" is another. You're down on your luck, desperately suicidal, why not make a name for yourself and hose down a school or two. Rotting in jail is a way better deterrent if you actually [i]want[/i] to die.

I like the idea of a measured reasoned punishment totally at odds with their hideous crime. And I do think that a whole life and a 45 year tarrif are reasonable. They can write a nice book on the quality of porridge in hm prisons.

Tomkerton people disagreed with you, stay and put your case across but you won't necessarily change minds.

It's not about absolute guilt or innocence it is about whether the state killing someone is an appropriate response to a violent act by an individual.

This case brings up the debate for the death sentence.
I realise this would make them martyrs but would save 45 years of jail cell cost
There is no doubt these guys are guilty and the money saved could be given to disabled children/cancer patients/whoever.

Then I realise I can get instant respect and prestige in alot of my community INSTANTLY if I convert to radical Islam.

Didn't they claim to be "soldiers of Allah"?
Surely then, they should be going to Colchester military prison?

Whichever side you are instinctively on, this case has to be one of the clearest arguments for the reinstatement of capital punishment.

On a basic level they've cost us everything and contributed nothing.

Just read the judges summing up, and noticed he mentioned Adabowale had a 'pre existing mental condition' which is why he received the lesser sentence. Anyone know anything about this? (I'm a psychiatric nurse, just asking out of professional interest).

oldboy - Member - Quote
Given the lilly-livered do gooder in this country I sadly predict Michael Adebolajo (whole-life term) will not die in prison and Michael Adebowale (45 yrs minimum) will serve less than 25-30 years.
I'm sure all the usual STW Guardian readers will be along shortly to explain why these poor boys are actually the real victims!

Well I'm a Guardian reader and I have no issues with the sentence handed down here, and I expect that it will all be served.

What I don't understand is the vehement hatred expressed.

I question the reporting of all these events.

Interesting story here about suppression of evidence that might not be palatable to us [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/28/video-british-soldiers-allegedly-murdering-afghan-prisoner ]funnily enough from the Guardian[/url]

My thoughts are with the family of Soldier Rigby, and I hope his murderers now have time to reflect and learn compassion and the true meaning of the religion they claim to follow.

As for the rest of us, I hope the same

The death penalty is more expensive than life sentences. The number of appeals means they usually spend up to 15 years in prison anyway, incurring a decent chunk of the 'life' prison costs, plus all the court costs associated with the appeals.

Couple of observations - a) there are many whole lifers who have not been released and the very very recent legal challenge to whole life tariffs have failed so I don't see why things will be any different here.

b) The killers actually hoped to die in a hail of police bullets so the threat of the death penalty would not have prevented this crime but instead encouraged it.

I do not agree with capital punishment under any circumstances - if it is wrong to kill someone (against their will - this is not the thread to debate euthanasia) then it is wrong to to kill them whether as a murderer or as the state.

I am genuingly pleased that the Police did not shoot to kill. I can only hope that someone can make them feel pain like their innocent victim and his family have gone through. Watching the video of that poor young lad walking back to his barracks fills my heart with sadness. RIP soldier, you will not be forgotten.

hora - Member
On a basic level they've cost us everything and contributed nothing.

Please define 'everything'

They can (and will) rot for all I care.

Their 'motivation' or 'reasoning' is irrelevant. Anyone who can do that to another person should be locked away. Simple as.

I am not against the death penalty for squeamish reasons, I just don't think I can ever condone a punishment that is completely irreversible if a mistake is made. Life rotting in jail is the next most appropriate thing.

I understand people's anger but personally I just find it all very sad. Sad we live in a society that can breed such hatred, sad for Lee Rigbys family and all the witnesses and sad for the killers parents who I'm sure never dreamt the kids they loved would do this. It's all quite depressing really.

If you believe the State cannot be trusted to get your taxes/public spending/public health/public infrastructure/social security etc correct then how can you think it can get a State Execution right?

In the US it costs circa $2.5 million to incarcerate a 20yr old male for the span of his natural life. It costs circa $5 million to execute him
Those who advocate the Death Penalty on the cheap, are you seriously suggesting the UK operates a less thorough justice system than that of the United States?
Seriously?

I wouldn't say 'anger' in my case.

More 'revulsion'. I cannot conceive of how one person can do something like that to another person. I can't even see how people can do cruel things to animals.

Such people are dangerous. They also deserve whatever they get. They have opted out of humanity by acting in this way.

I cannot conceive of how one person can do something like that to another person.

Quite easily.

You only have to look at Nazi Germany, The Khmer Rouge, or any of the recent civil wars in Africa to see ordinary family people hacking their neighbours limbs off after a few months brain washing.....

They have opted out of humanity by acting in this way.

I concur. However, we should not opt out of humanity in the way in which we punish them.

Footflaps.

I agree there are plenty of historical precedents, but at an individual level there is a moment where those people 'switch off' their humanity and kill or torture. I just cannot get my head around making that decision.

I hope I never can.

One of the best arguments against capital punishment is a miscarriage of justice that results in the death of the accused.

No not really, the best argument against capital punishment is that it is barbaric, ineffective and basically panders to the negative emotions felt by people who feel powerless in the face of atrocity.

You need to look at the motivation a society has for executing someone:

A) to deter others from doing the same thing.

How effective do you think this would be?

B) To punish them for what they have done.

How is killing someone for killing someone right?

C) To save the country some cash.

Clearly barbaric.

D) A lifetime locked away is worse than death.

Really? Hard to tell really, but it isn't as final as execution, provides some opportunity for the perpetrator to do something positive in the future and doesn't perpetuate the cycle of violence.

Personally, what upsets me is that my tax money will effectively be used to house and keep these two in jail for the next 50 years. What a waste. I think after a couple of years, when most people have forgotten about them, they should just "disappear" without trace. I'm sure a few members of the SAS would be happy to oblige.

They showed no mercy to their victim, we should be under no obligation to think we need to do otherwise.

I think after a couple of years, when most people have forgotten about them, they should just "disappear" without trace. I'm sure a few members of the SAS would be happy to oblige.

Then you have become what it is you so despise!

^^^ See what I mean 🙁

Not sure if I'd like to be any of the prison staff who'll be looking after them from now on. & that's a fact.

dannyh - Member
I wouldn't say 'anger' in my case.

More 'revulsion'. I cannot conceive of how one person can do something like that to another person. I can't even see how people can do cruel things to animals.

Such people are dangerous. They also deserve whatever they get. They have opted out of humanity by acting in this way.

pretty much agree with what youve said there

not sure if theyve opted out of humanity but cant see that they deserve to be anywhere other than prison and that they would be a danger if released

their crime was particularly horrific in nature but the EDL faux lynchmob outside the court is pretty sad really

on the other hand we let some people do hideous things and get awawy with a tap on the wrist

Mousa was hooded for almost 24 hours during his 36 hours of custody by the 1st Battalion of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment and that he suffered at least 93 injuries prior to his death. The report later details that Mousa was subject to several practices banned under both domestic law and the Geneva Conventions. Seven British soldiers were charged in connection with the case. [u]Six were found not guilty, Cpl Donald Payne, pleaded guilty to inhumane treatment of a prisoner, was jailed for a year[/u] and dismissed from the Army.
A final 1,400-page report said [b][u]a "large number" of soldiers assaulted Mousa[/u][/b] and that many others including officers must have known about the abuse. The report called his death an "appalling episode of serious gratuitous violence"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Baha_Mousa

Some really interesting stuff here.

Yes, in the USA it costs more to execute someone than incarcerate them and it is said that keeping someone on death row for 20 years in unhumane. This is a choice though. When the UK had the death penalty it was carried out swiftly. Timothy Evans was tried on 11th Jan 1950, his appeal was heard on 20th Feb and he was hung on 9th March. So it can be done quickly. OK, he was actually innocent but at least it was quick. Neville Heath was tried on 24th September 1946 and executed on 16th October.

I've never really understood the argument of "you don't teach people that killing someone is wrong, by killing someone who kills". That's like saying that ""you don't teach people that locking someone up against their will is wrong, by locking up someone who does this" When of course that's what we do. Same with issuing a fine for theft.

I was actually reading Albert Pierrepont's biography last week. He was the UK's chief hangman for many years and executed over 400 people. He says that in his opinion the death penalty never prevented a single murder and he came to strongly oppose capital punishment. Now obviously the world has moved on since the last execution in the UK but he said:

[i]It is said to be a deterrent. I cannot agree. There have been murders since the beginning of time, and we shall go on looking for deterrents until the end of time. If death were a deterrent, I might be expected to know. It is I who have faced them last, young men and girls, working men, grandmothers. I have been amazed to see the courage with which they take that walk into the unknown. It did not deter them then, and it had not deterred them when they committed what they were convicted for. All the men and women whom I have faced at that final moment convince me that in what I have done I have not prevented a single murder.[/i]

Of course Lee Rigby's killer tried on the day to be martyrs. They tried to get the police to shoot them. So what sort of deterrent would the death penalty have been?

I for one am glad to live in a society where we don't carry out un reversible justice. Whilst I don't want Lee Rigby's killers to ever be released, they [i]may[/i] still contribute to society from prison. They certainly couldn't from a grave.

I think a good day for British justice, but I still feel desperately sad for Lee Rigby's family.