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This case brings up the debate for the death sentence.
What then would we use as a deterrent against suicide bombers?
The thing is tomkerton is that there is no argument for reinstating the death penalty that this case has over any other bar lots of mobile phone footage and a religious motivation. Neither of which are really relevant to the sentencing.
There's cases of child abduction and murder that probably have a far more emotive force behind them but we shouldn't pass sentence or legislation based solely. on how we feel about it.
They'll be shouting about the afterlife and all the virgins in paradise they'll be with.
You know, I never really understood why that was such a compelling reward. Given the option of eternal life with 72 virgins, or with three or four right trollops, I know which I'd be opting for.
Within those 72 virgins could be some real gems.
Anyway I thought it was 70 virgins? Do they appreciate inline with inflation?
I have sad nothing whatsoever regarding the religious aspect. You have assumed that about me. It is in no way relevant to my argument.
I said quite clearly that the swaying argument for me here is that there can be no discussion about the guilt of these men. One of the best arguments against capital punishment is a miscarriage of justice that results in the death of the accused.
I am surprised that what I thought was a measured and thought out argument has upset some more than some of the posts on this thread!
I'll stick to gassing about bikes on here.
I'm sure that one translation is raisins.
Anyway, lock up, lob key down the drain. No martyrdom. No 'honour'. Only justice, fair and decent.
You know, I never really understood why that was such a compelling reward. Given the option of eternal life with 72 virgins, or with three or four right trollops, I know which I'd be opting for.
Trollops 🙂 Hadn't heard that expression in years. Anyway, trollops ( preferable Yorkshire trollops ) get my vote over 72 virgins any day of the week!
Bring back the penal colony. And send that one punch killer aswell.
good, let them rot painfully away for the rest of their lives
be nice if tony bliar got brought to account also but can't see that happening any time soon
One of the best arguments against capital punishment is a miscarriage of justice that results in the death of the accused.
Perhaps, but "easy way out" is another. You're down on your luck, desperately suicidal, why not make a name for yourself and hose down a school or two. Rotting in jail is a way better deterrent if you actually [i]want[/i] to die.
I like the idea of a measured reasoned punishment totally at odds with their hideous crime. And I do think that a whole life and a 45 year tarrif are reasonable. They can write a nice book on the quality of porridge in hm prisons.
Tomkerton people disagreed with you, stay and put your case across but you won't necessarily change minds.
It's not about absolute guilt or innocence it is about whether the state killing someone is an appropriate response to a violent act by an individual.
This case brings up the debate for the death sentence.
I realise this would make them martyrs but would save 45 years of jail cell cost
There is no doubt these guys are guilty and the money saved could be given to disabled children/cancer patients/whoever.
Maybe you could have three verdicts open to juries then: not guilty, guilty, guilty and this time we're really positive they're guilty so you can totes execute them.
Then I realise I can get instant respect and prestige in alot of my community INSTANTLY if I convert to radical Islam.
This is complete pish (unsurprisingly). Most people of every "community" think they are ****ers. These guys' "community" was Nigerian Christians so buggering off to become mouth-frothing Islamists brought disrespect and opprobrium.
Didn't they claim to be "soldiers of Allah"?
Surely then, they should be going to Colchester military prison?
Are you suggesting that they're prisoners of war? Have you thought that one through?
Whichever side you are instinctively on, this case has to be one of the clearest arguments for the reinstatement of capital punishment.
If this is as clear as it gets, then the argument remains weak. For one thing, it highlights the weakness of the death penalty as a deterrent - the fanaticism of the murderers was such they didn't care and wouldn't have been put off if there were capital punishment in England.
On a basic level they've cost us everything and contributed nothing.
Just read the judges summing up, and noticed he mentioned Adabowale had a 'pre existing mental condition' which is why he received the lesser sentence. Anyone know anything about this? (I'm a psychiatric nurse, just asking out of professional interest).
oldboy - Member - Quote
Given the lilly-livered do gooder in this country I sadly predict Michael Adebolajo (whole-life term) will not die in prison and Michael Adebowale (45 yrs minimum) will serve less than 25-30 years.
I'm sure all the usual STW Guardian readers will be along shortly to explain why these poor boys are actually the real victims!
Well I'm a Guardian reader and I have no issues with the sentence handed down here, and I expect that it will all be served.
What I don't understand is the vehement hatred expressed.
I question the reporting of all these events.
Interesting story here about suppression of evidence that might not be palatable to us [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/28/video-british-soldiers-allegedly-murdering-afghan-prisoner ]funnily enough from the Guardian[/url]
My thoughts are with the family of Soldier Rigby, and I hope his murderers now have time to reflect and learn compassion and the true meaning of the religion they claim to follow.
As for the rest of us, I hope the same
The death penalty is more expensive than life sentences. The number of appeals means they usually spend up to 15 years in prison anyway, incurring a decent chunk of the 'life' prison costs, plus all the court costs associated with the appeals.
Couple of observations - a) there are many whole lifers who have not been released and the very very recent legal challenge to whole life tariffs have failed so I don't see why things will be any different here.
b) The killers actually hoped to die in a hail of police bullets so the threat of the death penalty would not have prevented this crime but instead encouraged it.
I do not agree with capital punishment under any circumstances - if it is wrong to kill someone (against their will - this is not the thread to debate euthanasia) then it is wrong to to kill them whether as a murderer or as the state.
I am genuingly pleased that the Police did not shoot to kill. I can only hope that someone can make them feel pain like their innocent victim and his family have gone through. Watching the video of that poor young lad walking back to his barracks fills my heart with sadness. RIP soldier, you will not be forgotten.
hora - Member
On a basic level they've cost us everything and contributed nothing.
Please define 'everything'
They can (and will) rot for all I care.
Their 'motivation' or 'reasoning' is irrelevant. Anyone who can do that to another person should be locked away. Simple as.
I am not against the death penalty for squeamish reasons, I just don't think I can ever condone a punishment that is completely irreversible if a mistake is made. Life rotting in jail is the next most appropriate thing.
I understand people's anger but personally I just find it all very sad. Sad we live in a society that can breed such hatred, sad for Lee Rigbys family and all the witnesses and sad for the killers parents who I'm sure never dreamt the kids they loved would do this. It's all quite depressing really.
If you believe the State cannot be trusted to get your taxes/public spending/public health/public infrastructure/social security etc correct then how can you think it can get a State Execution right?
In the US it costs circa $2.5 million to incarcerate a 20yr old male for the span of his natural life. It costs circa $5 million to execute him
Those who advocate the Death Penalty on the cheap, are you seriously suggesting the UK operates a less thorough justice system than that of the United States?
Seriously?
I wouldn't say 'anger' in my case.
More 'revulsion'. I cannot conceive of how one person can do something like that to another person. I can't even see how people can do cruel things to animals.
Such people are dangerous. They also deserve whatever they get. They have opted out of humanity by acting in this way.
I cannot conceive of how one person can do something like that to another person.
Quite easily.
You only have to look at Nazi Germany, The Khmer Rouge, or any of the recent civil wars in Africa to see ordinary family people hacking their neighbours limbs off after a few months brain washing.....
They have opted out of humanity by acting in this way.
I concur. However, we should not opt out of humanity in the way in which we punish them.
Footflaps.
I agree there are plenty of historical precedents, but at an individual level there is a moment where those people 'switch off' their humanity and kill or torture. I just cannot get my head around making that decision.
I hope I never can.
One of the best arguments against capital punishment is a miscarriage of justice that results in the death of the accused.
No not really, the best argument against capital punishment is that it is barbaric, ineffective and basically panders to the negative emotions felt by people who feel powerless in the face of atrocity.
You need to look at the motivation a society has for executing someone:
A) to deter others from doing the same thing.
How effective do you think this would be?
B) To punish them for what they have done.
How is killing someone for killing someone right?
C) To save the country some cash.
Clearly barbaric.
D) A lifetime locked away is worse than death.
Really? Hard to tell really, but it isn't as final as execution, provides some opportunity for the perpetrator to do something positive in the future and doesn't perpetuate the cycle of violence.
Personally, what upsets me is that my tax money will effectively be used to house and keep these two in jail for the next 50 years. What a waste. I think after a couple of years, when most people have forgotten about them, they should just "disappear" without trace. I'm sure a few members of the SAS would be happy to oblige.
They showed no mercy to their victim, we should be under no obligation to think we need to do otherwise.
I think after a couple of years, when most people have forgotten about them, they should just "disappear" without trace. I'm sure a few members of the SAS would be happy to oblige.
Then you have become what it is you so despise!
^^^ See what I mean 🙁
Not sure if I'd like to be any of the prison staff who'll be looking after them from now on. & that's a fact.
dannyh - Member
I wouldn't say 'anger' in my case.More 'revulsion'. I cannot conceive of how one person can do something like that to another person. I can't even see how people can do cruel things to animals.
Such people are dangerous. They also deserve whatever they get. They have opted out of humanity by acting in this way.
pretty much agree with what youve said there
not sure if theyve opted out of humanity but cant see that they deserve to be anywhere other than prison and that they would be a danger if released
their crime was particularly horrific in nature but the EDL faux lynchmob outside the court is pretty sad really
on the other hand we let some people do hideous things and get awawy with a tap on the wrist
Mousa was hooded for almost 24 hours during his 36 hours of custody by the 1st Battalion of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment and that he suffered at least 93 injuries prior to his death. The report later details that Mousa was subject to several practices banned under both domestic law and the Geneva Conventions. Seven British soldiers were charged in connection with the case. [u]Six were found not guilty, Cpl Donald Payne, pleaded guilty to inhumane treatment of a prisoner, was jailed for a year[/u] and dismissed from the Army.
A final 1,400-page report said [b][u]a "large number" of soldiers assaulted Mousa[/u][/b] and that many others including officers must have known about the abuse. The report called his death an "appalling episode of serious gratuitous violence"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Baha_Mousa
Some really interesting stuff here.
Yes, in the USA it costs more to execute someone than incarcerate them and it is said that keeping someone on death row for 20 years in unhumane. This is a choice though. When the UK had the death penalty it was carried out swiftly. Timothy Evans was tried on 11th Jan 1950, his appeal was heard on 20th Feb and he was hung on 9th March. So it can be done quickly. OK, he was actually innocent but at least it was quick. Neville Heath was tried on 24th September 1946 and executed on 16th October.
I've never really understood the argument of "you don't teach people that killing someone is wrong, by killing someone who kills". That's like saying that ""you don't teach people that locking someone up against their will is wrong, by locking up someone who does this" When of course that's what we do. Same with issuing a fine for theft.
I was actually reading Albert Pierrepont's biography last week. He was the UK's chief hangman for many years and executed over 400 people. He says that in his opinion the death penalty never prevented a single murder and he came to strongly oppose capital punishment. Now obviously the world has moved on since the last execution in the UK but he said:
[i]It is said to be a deterrent. I cannot agree. There have been murders since the beginning of time, and we shall go on looking for deterrents until the end of time. If death were a deterrent, I might be expected to know. It is I who have faced them last, young men and girls, working men, grandmothers. I have been amazed to see the courage with which they take that walk into the unknown. It did not deter them then, and it had not deterred them when they committed what they were convicted for. All the men and women whom I have faced at that final moment convince me that in what I have done I have not prevented a single murder.[/i]
Of course Lee Rigby's killer tried on the day to be martyrs. They tried to get the police to shoot them. So what sort of deterrent would the death penalty have been?
I for one am glad to live in a society where we don't carry out un reversible justice. Whilst I don't want Lee Rigby's killers to ever be released, they [i]may[/i] still contribute to society from prison. They certainly couldn't from a grave.
I think a good day for British justice, but I still feel desperately sad for Lee Rigby's family.
Captain Flasheart, I too have heard that the translation from the Koran's Arabic might be raisins, not virgins. Something to do with the value of dried fruit in desert climes back in the day. Those martyrs are going to be mighty hacked off when they're presented with a box of SunBlest!
It repulses me that one of them may be released in 45 years.
I would not wish harm on any human but I hope they spend the rest of there days, in solitary confinement with nothing but basics to survive on.
I hope they live long quite lifes with the company of nobody, and that there crimes/appeals recive as little attention as possible as they seem to feed of any kind of publicity as (marturisum) which seems to make them happy.
My thoughts are with lees family, and hope they are provided with help they may need to move on to a better place in their life. Nothing will ever replace a Son, Father, Husband, uncle, brother or Friend.
I find t hard to believe that all of the people so vociferous in their support for death penalty here are just as outraged by the murder of women by their male partners, which is by far much more common type of murder (which is itself an atypical and uncommon crime).
This and most other crimes are not "Clear Evidence" for the death penalty.
It's a method of dispensing justice from a long time ago that was based on fear and not needing to deal with prisoners. We could deport them that was a good idea a couple of hundred years ago.
Spending a lifetime reflecting on what you have done is possibly one of the toughest punishments you can hand down to somebody. For all those wishing to dispense death would you do it yourself.
For all those that think this sort of thing un heard of take a look around the world. Is it different to launching a drone strike on a village killing innocent men women and children? The case of Baha Mousa above?
On the waking up surrounded by virgins it could just mean arriving in games workshop though.
On the waking up surrounded by virgins it could just mean arriving in games workshop though.
😆
I'm firmly in the "death penalty is bad" camp.
For a start I don't really think killing someone is OK as long as they killed someone else, EG. If I watched someone kill someone else so I killed them, I could be given the death penalty for killing them but the person who killed me would not be punished...
Also in most cases (this one being an exception) you cannot be 100% sure that someone is guilty and the risk of killing innocent people is not worth it IMHO. Time spent on your own to reflect on your actions and potentially change and contribute something to society is far better.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/26/domestic-violence-risk-death-injury-police
In a stark illustration of the levels of domestic violence across the country, data from 34 out of the 44 police forces in England, Wales and Scotland reveals that at least 10,952 individuals, most of whom are women, were deemed to be at high risk of violent death in the home, or of suffering serious violence, in the year to November.
I'm glad we don't have the death penalty and wholeheartedly agree with the courts judgement.
I also congratulate the timing of the trial regarding the delivery of the whole life tariff, European court ruling.
It's almost like they planned it that way.
You only have to look at Nazi Germany, The Khmer Rouge, or any of the recent civil wars in Africa to see ordinary family people hacking their neighbours limbs off after a few months brain washing
To be honest it rarely requires brainwashing. Imagine if you'd taken the convicted chaps and given to the mob outside. I doubt it would have been catcalls and jeering in store for them.
Firmly against the death penalty, I can only guess at the hell that Lee Rigby's family must be in, my thoughts are firmly with them.
Rather than argue about what should happen to these two men, our efforts should be directed to trying to find out why they did what they did, and trying to prevent it from occurring again.
These two wanted to die, I can think of no better punishment for them to be shuffling about in their 80's in a pair of slippers while still in jail.
I'm pro capital punishment, particularly for rapists and repeat (+1) violent offenders and middle lane hoggers, but something about this pair's outlook is appropriate.
They're going to have a miserable time.