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Advice from lawyers seems pretty extreme. Worth speaking to another and seeing what would happen if you withdrew compkaint.?
Apologies, OP: to try to help to answer the questions you actually asked:
- you can read the Crown Prosecution Service's understanding of Common Assault here: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offences_against_the_person/#a07 NB that if the charge is being heard at the Magistrate's Court, the [i]maximum [/i]custodial penalty is 6 months' imprisonment.
- you can read the Crown Prosecution Service sentencing manual for Common Assault here: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/common_assult/ The sentencing manual doesn't tell the court (judge) what sentence to impose, it's a summary of what the prosecutors are supposed to ask for or suggest is an appropriate sentence.
You'll notice that the "Factors reducing seriousness or reflecting personal mitigation" include "Determination, and/or demonstration of steps taken to address addiction or offending behaviour". If substance abuse and/or emotional problems were factors in the alleged offence, then if he can be engaged in counselling/therapy/treatment/support groups by the time of sentencing, this might help show that factor to the court. (It would presumably be helpful in addressing the underlying problems too).
was very surprised at the speed you judged
Yeah, sorry about that. Long day and I shot from the hip. I'm probably not the best person to be commenting on threads like this. Again, sorry.
postion of authority on Internet.
That's funny. I delete duplicate posts and split up arguments on a MTB forum. I'm not Tim Berners-Lee.
Reminds me of me when I was 17. A totally self absorbed a-hole. I've grown out of now thankfully (I think!).
If you can't get the charges dropped, pleading not guilty sounds a bit chancy I'd go down the mitigating circumstances and support/seeking help route I am anything but a lawyer). The last place he needs to be is YOI, that'll just mean more drugs and more bad company. Maybe hoof him out, make him stand on his own two feet, once he has an appreciation of how hard that is he might mature a bit and appreciate what you've done for him. No easy answers though, hope it all pans out.
Sounds bad, feel for you and anyone else that's gone through this.
I don't have kids, but all my closest school friends (people I grew up with from nursery right through to the end of high school) where in prison or dead when I last heard anything about them, all because of drugs. I was too scared of my dad to ever get too involved besides trying it a few times.
I think people are right to say don't give up on him, and maybe a short stay in prison may change him for the good, or the bad... But I'd think hard about letting him back in your house whatever the outcome. No matter what he needs/wants or what happens, you've two other children that must be kept away from the type of violence and hardship, as you want to do everything in your power to keep them from the same path.
The friends I mentioned above, as far as I know, the younger brothers and sisters where following suit when I broke contact with them...
Good luck to you though, and I hope it all works out in the end.
Eight weeks of leading a reasonable life away from home would be enough to convince me to do everything possible to get the law off his back. Even though it's getting the law involved that probably gave him the wake-up call he needed.
I agree with this. He's shown willing and although the catalyst could well have been the threat of the law, the seed is in there. Give him time and (at the gamble of pitchforkisms from the local posse) if you do anything to wind him up - y'know, little words and memories that you throw in his face ((and I ain't sayin' you do)) it's probably best to avoid them. Drugs can magnify the negative, especially the comedown.
Cougar: just wow what the hell are you doing holding a position of authority online?
Me plus quite a few others are gratefull for the effort and time Cougar and the rest of the mods put in, we are all capable of providing our own thoughts, and memories based on our and freinds life experiences, the mods just delete the more ofensive ones, before the sensitive are hurt.
I work in the criminal justice system and deal with cases like this frequently. I think you have reached a crisis point which could lead to you getting help to resolve the situation.Assuming he has not previous convictions and that he pleads guilty he will most likely be dealt with by way of a referral order, which means two things, first he will be allocated to a youth offending team officer who will work with him and you to resolve the family conflicts and address his behavioural difficulties, secondly , as long as he co-operates and doesn't reoffend the conviction will be considered spent once the order is completed.in other words his details will stay on police records but will be dormant unless he reoffends .The order can be from 3-12 months depending on the courts view of the seriousness of the offence.Hope that helps .
No relevant experience from the parenting perspective to share, but for what it's worth I think standing up to his behaviour and at the same time supporting him afterwards is the right approach. All the best.
I'm not a lawyer, my legal training is limited to a few acts I had to enforce in my job. My experience of courts is hours sat around magistrates courts waiting for my cases to come up and sitting through a series of drunks, drink drivers, domestic violence, debts, pub brawls. The justice system seems to do everything possible to persuade people to plead guilty. But the golden rule is that if you aren't guilty don't plead guilty.
I can think of plenty of reasons for picking up a knife in a domestic tiff. I'm not for an instant suggesting the OP was in any way threatening but picking up a knife to make sure you don't get assaulted is just one justification. The magistrates seemed quite pragmatic people. Not guilty pleas were accepted when there was more doubt than evidence, and unconditional discharges given when it was clearly six of one, half a dozen of the other. Of those that did get found guilty it struck me that it was usually on the basis of what they said themselves, including those I was prosecuting.
I'm sure that if the whole family has the s&me objective of getting out of this legal quicksand and then your son getting on with a new independent life without doing time of having a criminal record it can be made to happen by a competent solicitor/lawyer. So find one and pay what it costs.
I've read around father-son relationships and talked things over with professionals and many other parents. One recurrent theme is the pack like nature of families, the son being the young wolf that challenges then ousts the father to take over control of the pack. My son is more provocative and confrontational with me than anyone else I'm sure. Things have sometime got physical (though no weapons), there's a crack in the ceiling above one door he slammed and another has a loose frame. Magistrates are usually old enough to have had kids and lived through all this. Fathers and sons always have had and always will have rows, the justice system needs to be persuaded that escalating further will be counter productive.
I love these threads, I actually LOL'd when I read this line:
Is it possible to sit him and everyone down in a calmly manner to show him love and to tell him of the hurt he has created for the family?
Thought I was watching Loose Women for a moment!
And now we've got someone whose legal training amounts to sitting in a public gallery offering advice on how a man might perjure himself in order that his violent and potentially dangerous son is spared the prison sentence he deserves?
I think Cougar hit the nail on the head first time. He might be prone to bouts of little-Hitlerism; abusing his Mod tag to win arguments; wielding his ban hammer in a particularly prejudiced fashion; but in this instance, I don't think he should let the bleeding hearts shame him into watering down his initial reaction.
To all the people who've offered advice, how would you feel if this little wrong-un actually stabbed someone somewhere down the line? What if he stabbed one of your loved ones?
My advice would be to wash your hands of him, tell him he's on his own and protect what's left of your family from ever having to deal with anything like this again!
Let the law deal with him - he didn't just commit the offense against the OP, he committed an offense against all of society when he broke the law and behaved in a way that we should NOT tolerate.
Look out everyone Judge Dredd has arrived.
Jesus wept. 😯
@ gatsby - you don't have kids do you? Or if you do ... er, don't answer that. 😐
Are you on the same stuff as the OP's lad Gatsby/Shibboleth?
Who is Gatsby then?
I think people need to wake up and smell the coffee... It's all well and good sitting at your keyboard and patting yourself on the back for being such a lovely fluffy human being and offering nicey nicey advice on how OP and his boy can go camping and fishing at weekends, bond together and live happily ever after... IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!
This little scrote disappears for weeks at a time, taking all sorts of drugs and breaking all manner of laws, and only comes home when he needs to eat, sh*t in a clean toilet and scrounge some cash.
People don't just *suddenly* pick up a knife and threaten to slash another human. Sure, it may be the worse thing he's done, but i'd bet my house he's committed other violent crimes against others before.
A "Good Lad" simply doesn't threaten to kill someone!
My OH is in the Police. Yesterday, her and her colleagues sent 4 "good lads" down for over 100 years. She sat through hours of reports in court about how they were decent kids that had just "got in with the wrong crowd" but they conspired to lure another man to a meeting place and stabbed him 28 times until he died.
They were well-known to Police, having managed to evade prosecution by intimidating victims and witnesses with ever more horrific assaults, stabbings, shootings and murders. The only crimes they'd ever been convicted of were minor assaults (years ago) and minor drug offenses.
A wrong-un is a wrong-un. Perhaps a custodial won't do him any good. But it'll do more good than letting a nasty little scrote think he can get away with a knife assault.
Troll.
Who is Gatsby then?
I just told you, pay attention at the back.
OP, I can't give any proper advice as my kids are only young, but i was a bit of a tosser in my teens, drugs, fighting and all that shit. But my parents both moved away from Leicester (different directions as they were divorced) and I had the chance to change things by moving up to Halifax with my dad. Fortunately I understood this would be a good change and took the opportunity and things worked out well for me and my parents.
just don't give up on him, tell him you'll help him and make him understand that even if he does go down you'll still be there for him. Hopefully this will give him the strength to get through his stretch. At 17 he has a good chance of changing, hopefully he has seen that now.
Awful situation to be in, I hope you and your family get through it well.
gatsby is a troll or an idiot or both
and definitely without question, a complete wrong 'un
The Police have a difficult job to do and they virtually never see people who have turned their lives around and are now good/clean etc etc. Because they don't get 999 shouts to people being reasonable... So I would take Gatsby's input with a bucket of salt.
From a more health-based viewpoint I do get to see people who went feral between 16-25 say, and then get it together, become responsible, good parents etc. So if the OP's boy has insight into what he did wrong, is willing to change, to live somewhere away from the people he has been around, I'd want him to be helped with that and try and keep him out of the system. Once.
But sadly sometimes some people cannot/will not be helped and you might just have to wait for that stuff to burn out.
For what it's worth, I have very relevant experience of a similar situation, the difference being that i was the sibling of a "wrong-un". My parents went down the "protect at all costs" route and the costs have been immeasurable. Still hasn't ended well 25 years down the line - it was never going to.
In my experience, forcing the offending party to face up to the consequences of actions would have had far better results than protecting them from the law, mental health professionals, social services etc.
I won't comment any more on my experiences as it's a very personal thing, suffice to say, my opinions were hard won. Very hard won.
sad mate, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence"...
Didn't work out in your case, doesn't mean it cannot in others.
Can anyone point me in the direction of a decent, law-abiding adult; a fine, upstanding member of society, who, as a youth, held a parent at knifepoint and threatened to slice their face off?
The reason I ask, is that I can name several people who did similar things as youths, who all ended up committing further offenses as adults. And I can name 2 off the top of my head that died before they got to their mid twenties.
They were all good lads though 😉
offer to drop the charges in exchange for 6 months, or more, voluntary abroad with a charity organisaton, for example :
http://www.gvi.co.uk/volunteer-abroad/?gclid=CI7l2vH0qsYCFQXJtAodOu0Pig
should be enough to turn things around and give him a new outlook...
offer to drop the charges in exchange for 6 months, or more, voluntary abroad with a charity organisaton, for example :
😆
gatsby - Member
Can anyone point me in the direction of a decent, law-abiding adult; a fine, upstanding member of society, who, as a youth, held a parent at knifepoint and threatened to slice their face off?
The reason I ask, is that I can name several people who did similar things as youths, who all ended up committing further offenses as adults. And I can name 2 off the top of my head that died before they got to their mid twenties.
They were all good lads though
If it didn't mean she'd get the sack, my wife who is a social worker (previously child protection) could point out quite a few.
I bet, if her professional pride allowed it, she could name hundreds more that didn't turn their lives round.
If Gatsby really is Shibboleth (which seems a good call) then the level of hypocrisy being displayed here is quite impressive. Better things to do than dig but it's tempting.
Go with your instinct OP. You know him better than anyone.
This place does make me realise that it's not okay to have a non fluffy bunny approach to stuff, gatsby speaks from his experience and opinion and cougar his opinion. I spoke from my experience and opinion. Giving folk a hard time just because they may have a different opinion or experience doesn't make your opinion or experience any more valid.
Whichever way it goes for the OPs lad, I hope the OP and his family can overcome it all and move on in peace and harmony for the rest of their lives.
Professional pride doesn't come into it. Of course she could. And she'd be perfectly willing to do so too. My point is that it is perfectly possible. Generally the ones who manage it are lucky enough to avoid time in any kind of youth offenders institution. Because once they get in there they get caught up in a whole other world which takes a particularly steely resolve to ignore.
Gatsby/Shibboleth is a roadie and the biggest "fluffy bunny" on the site when it comes to doped-up roadies. Using PEDs is illegal, leads to personality disorders and the last murder in my town was committed by a roadie. Another useless anecdote of course. I believe the OP when he says his son is a good kid - who didn't go the step too far of using the knife.
the opinions of folk who have gotten their world view from their one personal experience (from which they seemingly haven't recovered emotionally, let's call them something like maybe, problem adults) don't really stand up against the opinions of people who encounter many problem youths on a daily basis..
Character no, his peer group probably.
Edit: the above was in reply to a now-deleted Gatsby post.
Gatsby - I think that last post is OTT and have reported it. That is just nasty to someone who came here for support. There is putting a contrary view and then there is being a plain a***.
Piss off Gatsby, there's no bloody need for the crap that you're coming out with. If you've got something constructive to say, say it, but otherwise stop just insulting the OP for the sake of it. He's trying to understand stuff in what must be a bloody hard time for him and his family, I don't think he deserves your bollocks. Have a bit of tact.
Once a troll, always a troll.
Generally the vast majority of the kids my wife deals with are a product of their past to some degree. Some of it abusive, some of it not. Some kids are susceptible to peer pressure and such likes and as such get led down the wrong path finding it difficult to find the right path again. Some kids learn at a very early age to be what they see as self reliant. They have learnt through experience that adults cannot be trusted and as a result lack the life skills to integrate. They get introduced to a system that is hard and can very easily seem uncaring and they become a product of that.
Unfortunately the adolescent brain is an unpredictable beast. The chemistry that goes on in there leads them to make choices that most rounded adults would never make. Kids in the system of youth offending seriously struggle to get out of the cycle that got them there simply because what they're surrounded by bares more resemblance to the trouble that got them there than the corrective influences that would help turn them around.
Thanks mods for acting.
It can see both sides of the fluffy bunny hugging and lock them up arguments. The best way forwards is probably neither option. There has to be a constructive way of showing the OP's lad that his behaviour was not acceptable and that there is a better way of doing things. Whether that involves kicking his arse either literally or metaphorically is another matter.
To be fair to Gatsby, the OP's lad sounds like a proper **** who needs his arse kicked. Someone likened the situation to pack activity - the thing with that is that on the way to becoming the alpha male, a few arse kickings have to be endured along the way.
Good luck to the OP.
gatsby - MemberCan anyone point me in the direction of a decent, law-abiding adult; a fine, upstanding member of society, who, as a youth, held a parent at knifepoint and threatened to slice their face off?
The reason I ask, is that I can name several people who did similar things as youths, who all ended up committing further offenses as adults. And I can name 2 off the top of my head that died before they got to their mid twenties.
They were all good lads though
My initial suggestion of sitting down to have a good chat is based on the societal norm in the UK.
In the far east we would beat the son/daughter senseless into total submission if s/he pull a knife on the parents. It is a very serious offense if children threaten to harm the parents. The society is based on respecting of the elders and no matter how serious the argument no children should threaten the parents that way. S/he would be cast out from the family if s/he does not change as we considered them damage goods.
OP, you're between a rock and a hard place.
Whatever you do will be painful.
Prime consideration should be the effect of all this on the younger kids. In a similar situation I banished my eldest son. Gave him a grand and told him to eff off and not come back until he'd become an adult human.
My missus was all bleeding heart and still niggles me about it.
Son eventually after a year or two, finally realised he was in charge of his own life. Now has 2 degrees plus a masters degree and makes a hefty income.
It could have gone the other way of course, but I figured the prospect of extreme violence in the home was reasonably high, and the risk of psychological damage to the younger ones was certain, so it was a chance we had to take.
If the OP is convinced that his son has reached a turning point because of what has already happened since the event then I can understand the doubts he now has about pursuing a prosecution. A number of posters have offered sage advice about attempting to get the case dropped and if he has no previous convictions then I think the effect of the OP & authorities actions so far is probably going to be of far more value than a prosecution (and more importantly, a criminal record.)
As the charge was common assault as opposed to the more serious alternatives, then the OP as victim has a say in what is proposed. It is common for a victim of violence, particularly in a domestic setting, to retract their statement and say they no longer wish to support a prosecution. It does not mean that the case will fail but it will be considered. A lot will depend upon whether the son has admitted what happened when interviewed but given this is the first time that the OP has reported such a thing and there is no previous history to warrant a victimless prosecution, then there is a chance that the CPS, if informed by police/defence, will not proceed.
It also depends on whether the son has already entered a plea.
Some kids change and sometimes all it needs is a wake up call, others don't and it is the OP that needs to make that judgement. He also has to weigh up how he will feel if his son does get convicted and receives a custodial sentence (unlikely but due to the aggravating aspect of the knife, not impossible.)
Hope it all works out for you.
Magistrates are usually old enough to have had kids and lived through all this.
As an aside, one of the big problems with magistrates in England and Wales is that they're all "of a type" - old white Tory men.
magistrates are becoming less diverse - certainly older and less representative of black and minority ethnic groups, possibly more middle class and more heterosexual. This trend, unless reversed, threatens the support they currently enjoy and the very purpose of having a lay magistracy - judgement by peers.
If you think you would have a clue about the right thing to do with the OP's family member, then perhaps you ought to be volunteering as a magistrate or (in Scotland) a civilian Children's Panel member.
https://www.gov.uk/become-magistrate/what-magistrates-do
https://www.childrenspanelscotland.org/how-can-you-help/
Feel for the OP. No advice as tbh I don't think there is ever a right or wrong answer to this. I bet there are thousands of cases like this where parents have gone either softly softly or cut them out of their lives. Does anyone really win?
Best of luck to you and hope your son gets the help required
As said above. There really is some sage advice in this thread and I'd like to thank all who have answered and an especially big thanks for those in the know that have taken time out to contact me directly. On the whole I think Singletrack forum members are a massive caring family..