Binners you're a curious one. You spend most of your time on here broadcasting your northern chip on the shoulder and ranting against southern tories, but then take the side of a public school educated chinless wonder who has spent his entire life fine wining and dining in diplomatic circles at the cost of the taxpayer. 🤷♂️
I'm afraid between Cummings and posh Mr Disagreeable I'll take Cummings' side every day.
Or it tells us you how much you are influenced by class ridden stereotypes.
Damn right. I've been a victim of those stereotypes my entire life. Don't ask me to show them any sympathy. They can all burn as far as I'm concerned.
I’m afraid between Cummings and posh Mr Disagreeable I’ll take Cummings’ side every day.
So you're in favour of class-based bigotry over rational decisions? Explains a lot.
I’m afraid between Cummings and posh Mr Disagreeable I’ll take Cummings’ side every day.
The fact that there are quite a lot of people like you is what facilitates the whole shit show.
Why do you have to take sides? Why can't you see that one is just as bad as the other, just in different ways.
I'm not defending Mr Chinless posho. I'm not defending anyone.
I'm saying that having some power-crazed lunatic like Cummings come in and start acting like some Banana Republic tinpot dictator, sacking anyone he doesn't like isn't the answer either.
Who do you think he's going to put in their place? Given that he'd previously done everything in his power to get Boris Johnson elected? He didn't seem to have any issue with that particular chinless posho when it suited him
I’m afraid between Cummings and posh Mr Disagreeable I’ll take Cummings’ side every day.
Good job we had "Dominic Cummings, man of the people" going in there to disrupt them for the benefit of us all. And Truss with her grass roots working class British backers then doubling down on the clear out of "the swamp". Wish I could thank them both.
[ insert all the winking emoticons ]
Will watch it, but guess it’ll make me even more hacked off at those who voted for this shower of grifters and idiots.
If you haven't yet seen it, don't worry. While an interesting recap, nothing on there will even slightly surprise you.
I’ll take Cummings’ side every day.
I think he's right in that the structure of the civil service and appointment of MPs into Cabinet and Ministerial positions - often for very short periods of time with little to no experience, based largely on whether the PM likes them, needs their support or any other myriad political reasons; needs reform, it's very clearly no longer fit for purpose*.
The problem is that while he identified it, all he then did was try to destroy it, with absolutely no idea and no real enthusiasm for the actual work of how it was to be rebuilt.
In that respect, I'd rather have the toff
* the central theme to Rory Stewart's new book is this subject. In one instance he recounts that May appointed an ex-lawyer to the Health Service and and ex-GP to the Justice Dept.
Why do you have to take sides?
Did you actually just write that!? You are literally the most partisan person on this forum. 😂
I'm not exactly pro-Cummings, but I struggle to disagree with him that the grip on power that apparatchiks such as that FO bloke has needs dismantling. Every problem in this country boils down to politicians and civil servants saying 'we can't do that', when in actual fact they mean 'we won't do that' because it doesn't benefit them or the class of people they belong to. Cummings of course wouldn't have done any better, but what if someone with good intentions was trying to do the same? Would you then be defending Mr Foreign Office or someone like him? Actually that's a moot question, because given your fanatical opposition to anyone proposing to do anything different you'd support the establishment every time.
the central theme to Rory Stewart’s new book is this subject.
Yes Rory Stewart, an MI6 ghoul who no doubt knows Mr Foreign Office very well. I'm not sure I put much credence in whatever he says either.
https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1703726528687710710?s=20
I'm enjoying it, but as Tom Peck of the Independent writes...
...And then there's the calm voice of Helen MacNamara the ethics advisor later fined for bringing her karaoke machine to a lockdown party
Why do you have to take sides?
Did you actually just write that!? You are literally the most partisan person on this forum.
So why would I take a side in this argument? What benefit is it to me, or anyone like me, who 'wins?'. A bunch of entitled old school ties against a power-crazed psychopath? Thats like asking if you want your huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread? Theres no 'winners' there as far as I, or anyone like me is concerned
For me, it's like watching City play Liverpool. I just watch it hoping for some red cards and injuries.
but what if someone with good intentions was trying to do the same?
Then I'd judge them on their merits like I do with everything else. Its not complicated.
Getting back to the programme (imagine that?), I found it absolutely terrifying the way Dominic Cummings was allowed to ride roughshod over our supposed constitution, pretty much unopposed. At the end of the day the chinless posho's were absolutely powerless to stop him, he effectively sacked the chancellor of the exchequer because he wouldn't do his bidding, he prorogued parliament and he only finally got the chop when he had a tiff with the fly-tipped sofa
Doesn't reflect well on our democracy, does it? Nobody voted for this bloke, remember, but it looks like to all intents and purposes he was making all the big calls about the running of the country, without consulting anybody
The fact that there are quite a lot of people like you
People like me? Last time I looked there weren't many working class lefty liberal anarchists around. Happy to be corrected though.
Indeed. And who then became the de facto Prime Minister herself, in the absence of any interest in the fulfilling the role from the bloke who'd actually (inexplicably) been given the job
I found it absolutely terrifying the way Dominic Cummings was allowed to ride roughshod over our supposed constitution
We don't have a constitution. We have a gentleman's agreement between rich people who went to public school and Oxbridge, and a tiny few people with hereditary titles. If Cummings was trying to dismantle that then fine by me.
Doesn’t reflect well on our democracy, does it?
We don't have a democracy. Glad you're finally waking up to that fact.
We don’t have a constitution
Oh not this again, yes we do, it's just not codified into a document. How else d'you think the Supreme Court ruled that Johnson proroguing of Parliament was illegal?
If Cummings was trying to dismantle that then fine by me.
But Cummings is also "rich people who went to public school and Oxbridge". He's married to a Baron's daughter for goodness sake. He's as Establishment as it's possible to get.
rich people who went to public school and Oxbridge
Like Cummings.
a tiny few people with hereditary titles
Like Cummings' father in law.
He wanted to change how the state works (and not for the better in my opinion), not which social group it works for. Just another power grab by someone who went to public school and Oxford and married into aristocracy. If as a lefty working class anarchist you're cheering that, you've been had.
We don’t have a constitution. We have a gentleman’s agreement between rich people who went to public school and Oxbridge, and a tiny few people with hereditary titles. If Cummings was trying to dismantle that then fine by me.
Yeah, well that sounds all well and good until you talk to the likes of the people who, for example, supported islamists as they thought they'd help them overthrow their dictatorial leaders? They weren't so hot on that idea once they had succeeded in that, only to find it replaced with a tyranny of murderous jihadists
'Lets just smash everything up' isn't really a formula for a successful system of government, is it? You have to sort of think about what it will be replaced with
We don’t have a constitution.
We do its just spread across a bunch of different documents. Admittedly there are some fairly big gaps in it such as the role of PM which has evolved via convention instead but we do have one.
If Cummings was trying to dismantle that then fine by me.
He was wanting to use it to his advantage. Not dismantle it.
Otherwise step 1 would have been to codify all the conventions.
I have watched the first two. Disappointingly shallow, I was hoping for more on the detail of what went on between the mythical men in grey suits in their smoke filled rooms.
It's surprising how many of you dislike Dominic Cummings since many of you seem to agree with 90% of his beliefs and only disagree with his means of achieving them.
Under representation of the North. Removing UKIP as a factor in UK politics. Removing/reducing immigration as a factor in UK politics. Opposition to extremism. Belief in liberal ideals. Free trade. Opposition to the Euro. Belief that many Tories are idiot and that their lackeys are worse. Total disbelief in established systems especially those which are inefficient and/or corrupt. He didn't believe in Brexit - he was against further integration and believed in some things which could be delivered by Brexit. He's admittedly ruthless in his pursuit, but from the very beginning, you could tie his colours to issues, he never tried to hide it. Almost all of his views were political/scientific, but not party relate, just around policy - his understanding of economics is by all accounts woeful, so would have been willfully ignorant of the economic effects of Brexit, instead focussing only on the political effects.
It's just a shame he can't add - Tories are idiots + tearing down society doesn't a good outcome.
Say what you will - I really hope that ARIA will be a success. We needed this.
many of you seem to agree with 90% of his beliefs
He has far more in common with Jacob Rees-Moog and his "beliefs" as regards sovereign individuals than he does with me (or anyone else that's commented on him so far in this thread I'd wager).
ARIA : "investments" shrouded in secrecy funnelling state funds to private pet projects with no results shown.
At least someone since has had the sense to get us involved in Horizon again... years wasted in science and R&D at the whim of one man.
only disagree with his means of achieving them.
For me that's the issue. He knew what he was against, and he knew what he wanted (sort of, although I'd argue he probably doesn't) , he had zero interest in actually putting down in words how to get from A to B let alone anything after that. I genuinely think he was terrified that if he nailed his colours to a mast he'd have been asked to deliver, and he knows that he's almost entirely incapable of doing the thing he apparently wants.
For someone who's ideals are those that you list, its a bloody bizarre thing to do to hitch your wagon to the Tory party.
His trick was to (correctly) see how totally dysfunctional a Johnson regime would be, in the wake of the Brexit chaos that he was largely responsible for, and allow him to take full advantage of in a mad power grab.
He wanted to smash everything up, but didn't seem to have a clue what to replace it with. He's just another Ayn Rand worshipping bell-end who believe in the ludicrous concept of 'creative chaos'. Well theres no such thing as 'creative chaos', only chaos, as where this country is now is testimony to
Like Cummings.
Like Cummings’ father in law.
Oh FGS I'm not making out like Cummings is some sort of working class hero, of course he isn't. But he was a disruptor, and christ knows this corrupt venal system we have to run the country needs a bit/lot of disruption. It needs to change massively if the needs of working people are ever going to be properly addressed. As has been proven time and again, that change isn't coming from within the system, so maybe it needs a Cummings-like approach to break the seal. I don't really care who does it, and from what background they come from, but it needs to happen.
Yeah, we get it... change is good... even when it makes things worse.
I think Dom Cummings should be a man who shouts about how shit it all is, and he should be listened to as a public commentator Although his blog is mostly impenetrable, he is very obviously pretty smart. He should also be kept very far away from anything even slightly resembling anything organisational above his sock drawers though.
For someone who’s ideals are those that you list, its a bloody bizarre thing to do to hitch your wagon to the Tory party.
His trick was to (correctly) see how totally dysfunctional a Johnson regime would be, in the wake of the Brexit chaos that he was largely responsible for, and allow him to take full advantage of in a mad power grab.
He wanted to smash everything up, but didn’t seem to have a clue what to replace it with. He’s just another Ayn Rand worshipping bell-end who believe in the ludicrous concept of ‘creative chaos’. Well theres no such thing as ‘creative chaos’, only chaos, as where this country is now is testimony to
That's kind of my point - he used the Tories to achieve his goals. He never hid anything. I also don't believe he intended it to be creative chaos. He had some things HE wanted to achieve and assumed (or just didn't care) that the rest would be taken car of by the government. Like I said, it's the joined up thinking in pursuit of his goal that was missing.
As for Aria - it's not even off the ground yet. But it's research goals are unique and challenging, not merely sheep following trends. And Horizon was specifically supposed to continue - it was only due to the Tories incompetence that it didn't.
Let's just be clear, I don't support the Tories or DC, what I'm saying is that he explicitly stated, decades before he was fired EXACTLY what he would do if given the chance. He was given that chance and he did it. If you want to blame anyone, it should be BJ, JRM and most especially Gove.
The problem with self proclaimed "disruptors" is that they can fail to solve any existing problems while piling a whole load of fresh ones on top of them, if given a free hand.
And any "Cummings ideas would have been sound if it wasn't for the Tories" line ignores that he was in power only because of people voting for a Tory government. He helped get them in, and him in, by leveraging Brexit as a tool not an aim. It's like saying if only Cummings wasn't doing what he was doing then what he was doing might have been beneficial.
change is good… even when it makes things worse.
Makes things worse for who though? For a large portion of the lower/working classes things can't get much worse. As we saw with brexit and Trump in America, when the upper/middle class establishment ignore that the majority start to make stupid choices when they go to the ballot box.
Makes things worse for who though? For a large portion of the lower/working classes things can’t get much worse.
You realise that the entire Tory party is looking at that statement and saying 'hold my pint châteauneuf du pape....'
For a large portion of the lower/working classes things can’t get much worse.
They are getting worse. Have been for years. You might be isolated from the additional shit brought upon the UK by these people, but many of us are not.
TL:DR Cummings was smarter than the directors of the BEEB and used it to his advantage because he’s a psychopathic scheming sack of shit with no morals.
Pretty good summary, that.
The problem with the BBC is precisely due to the ability of the government to threaten its funding if it feels the Beeb isn’t being subservient enough. I’ve never really paid much attention to Laura Kuennesberg, or any of the political wonks for that matter, so I’ve been immune to whatever she’s been whittering on about, but there really does need to be a national network that doesn’t rely on advertising, but is entirely immune from intimidation and interference from the government of the day. What sort of legal framework would enable that I don’t know, government is quite happy to change laws to get its way, even when the law is supposedly written to be immune from interference.
I’m happy to pay for the BBC just for the sheer quality of its nature and science programmes, and its national radio stations, commercial radio is absolute garbage.
You realise that the entire Tory party is looking at that statement and saying ‘hold my pint châteauneuf du pape….’
Doesn't matter if it can actually get worse, what matters is that people perceive that it can't and then start electing the really dangerous types.
What? Can you tell me who's presently more dangerous than this lot?
You get that the programme we're discussing is detailing 13 years of total chaos, brought to you by a gang of insane right wing headbangers?
And any “Cummings ideas would have been sound if it wasn’t for the Tories” line ignores that he was in power only because of people voting for a Tory government. He helped get them in, and him in, by leveraging Brexit as a tool not an aim.
Who said that? I certainly didn't. I never said they were good ideas. I said others seemed to agree with some of his ideas. I only really agree with the idea of strategic, state funded, fundamental, not necessarily applicable, highly exploratory research, I was simply pointing out that he wasn't a Tory, wasn't a believer and wasn't an intentional chaos maker. He just had some shit he wanted to get done and found a way to do it. Blame those who gave him the chance, not the man to whom the chance was given.
You might be isolated from the additional shit brought upon the UK by these people, but many of us are not.
Eh? So now you've suffered at the hands of the tories, you want to keep everything the same? You do realise labour are (probably*) not coming to the rescue don't you? Look at the bigger picture, the reason anyone who can call themselves working class has suffered over the past 40 years is not the result of one political party, but the system of government and the people who sustain it. Labour are as complicit in that as the tories.
*If you believe what Starmer and Reeves tell us.
What? Can you tell me who’s presently more dangerous than this lot?
The people you call insane rightwing headbangers were the same people who paid millions of people's wages and propped up the entire economy during covid. When the chips were down they did as any other sensible goverment or political party would. That's not deserving of much credit, but it illustrates the point that they could have been much, much worse. You have a lack of imagination.
I was simply pointing out that he wasn’t a Tory
He is "of the right" though. Every single one of his forays into local or national politics has been in opposition to left wing ideas and he's consistently and continually worked with the Right. I think he dislikes the sort of "gentlemen amateur arts degree politician " that certain parts of the Tory establishment produce, although arguably; that's exactly what he is himself.
He is “of the right” though. Every single one of his forays into local or national politics has been in opposition to left wing ideas and he’s consistently and continually worked with the Right.
Are you talking about Keir Starmer here or Dominic Cummings?
Boom and possibly Tish
Blame those who gave him the chance, not the man to whom the chance was given.
But that's so circular... he helped put those people in power, and he knew how shit they would be once there.
paid millions of people’s wages and propped up the entire economy during covid. When the chips were down they did as any other sensible goverment or political party would.
A good point. But they didn't pay Binners, so perhaps don't rub it in...😉
It’s surprising how many of you dislike Dominic Cummings since many of you seem to agree with 90% of his beliefs and only disagree with his means of achieving them.
I am not sure I agree with that high percentage of his beliefs but even if I did the "means of achieving" is a rather important difference. Its also unclear how much he believed in,for example, helping the north vs using it as a way of achieving his aims. Certainly he did very little to actually help beyond campaign slogans and if anything undermined it by the antidevolution campaigns.
It’s just a shame he can’t add – Tories are idiots + tearing down society doesn’t a good outcome.
Because his views, in general, aligned with the tories although more of the Sunak pretend techno bro variety than one nation. Whilst he was more about using the tories rather than being a loyal party member he was still very much politically aligned with them.
He just had some shit he wanted to get done and found a way to do it. Blame those who gave him the chance, not the man to whom the chance was given.
Eh? Why not hold both accountable.
If I got made PM then those who gave me the chance should definitely be blamed for being morons.
However I should also be blamed for being deluded enough to think I could do the job.
With regards to the research it sums him up really. A half arsed knock off of the US DARPA moulded through simplistic silicon valley view of technology will solve everything without thinking about the larger picture or understanding when technology fails us.
Guys the policy is the problem.
We are being fed a looney-bin economic system stated as 'fact' that endless growth will deliver the things that we want when it's the exact opposite way around. You can't make a case for small state and somehow growth springs up - like Truss believes, or many of the Tories. State has to come first - any party ignoring this is doomed to failure. This has been the way since 1979 not 13 years ago. The stripping of the state gave us the growth between. That's eroded now.
Harping on about Tory behaviour solves nothing. It's a rotten distraction. Well behaved neoliberals like Starmer are not rewriting the narrative. Tories control the narrative and we seem to be stuck in this reactionary world.
We need a new way of prioritising things. And stronger political will. Either pay now for Climate Change or pay when it's too late by way of example.
