explain that a bit more please – why is it wrong to point out to the Jewish community that it might be a good time to remind people that what Israel does is not ‘a Jewish thing’, and therefore they shouldn’t form anti-semetic views based on the actions of Israel ?
What exactly is anti-semetic about pointing that out ?
It's not very often that I agree with Binners, but I think he's right on this issue. British Jews are not accountable for the Israeli government because of what is no more than an accident of birth. I think it carries more weight when Jews do speak out, and am glad when they do so, but to demand it of them seems to me to be anti-semitic. If I were to be uncharitable, I could take the view that Hatton's tweet was the carefully crafted kind of dog whistle we sometimes see used to associate muslims with terrorists. The sort of thing we used to do to Irish people not so long ago, so it seems we haven't come very far.
that's BS, if I was getting flack from people because of the actions of the government, I don't see a problem in me pointing out that what they were doing was not something that I agreed with, that they were doing it 'not in my name'.
And if I kept quiet and just complained to a mate that I was sick about getting flack about it, and he told me that I should point out to anyone giving me flack that this wasn't being done 'in my name' in order to reduce that flack, then I would think that was a reasonable comment.
What you’re talking about is collective accountability. Which is just nonsense
it may be nonsense, but that is how people work, isn't it?
Same as people on here calling all conservative voters 'tory scum', for example.
that’s BS, if I was getting flack from people because of the actions of the government, I don’t see a problem in me pointing out that what they were doing was not something that I agreed with, that they were doing it ‘not in my name’.
It would be better if you could avoid name-calling just because someone disagrees with you.
No-one said there's a problem with pointing it out, simply that there shouldn't be an expectation.
It would be better if you could avoid name-calling just because someone disagrees with you
??
Maybe we could get all the Jews to wear ‘Not in my name’ t-shirts so we could easily identify them?
Or some kind of badge or insignia?
And as for policies? Do they actually have any?
That barely deserves a response tbh but I'm going to anyway (I'm off work so have plenty time!). You don't like Corbyn, fair enough. As I've said before I'm pretty non-plussed by him too. However the policies that his leadership, with the full backing of members, has put forward are something I'm extremely supportive of. What's tragic is that these policies, which all labour voters (and many others) should be able to support, are being obfuscated by the continued obsession with Corbyn the personality.
I'd expect the tories to do this as deflecting attention from policies which appear to be very popular with the voters is their best strategy for remaining in power. But the fact that it's supposedly 'labour' people who are doing their job for them is beyond the pale. Given this I'm suprised there isn't all out civil war between MPs and members who support the policies and those who are obsessed with preventing their implementation by ensuring labour never win an election.
I agree they probably will split, and the end result will be continued tory government. It's fine if some MPs (and it is mostly MPs) don't like Corbyn, but what I cannot understand or accept is that they prioritise bringing him down over winning an election and having the chance to implement the policies which as labour MPs they should obviously support.
they prioritise bringing him down over winning an election
Maybe, just maybe, The Absolute Boy is a massive turn off for the electorate, thereby making winning an election rather difficult. If that were the case*, then getting rid of him would be sensible political strategy.
*It isn't though, is it? It's all the fault of the Red Tory Blairite scrum and their mates in the biased MSM, amirite?
Again: Jeremy Corbyn is totally unelectable. While he is leader of the Labour party it doesn't have a cat in hells chance of forming a government. As amply illustrated by his woeful poll ratings against the most shambolic and incompetent government this country has ever witnessed, presently driving us towards economic Armageddon.
This isn't the fault of the 'Blairites' 'moderates', the right wing press (which apparently no includes the Guardian) or disillusioned labour voters. It is entirely the fault of Jeremy Corbyn for dragging the party off down an economic and political cul-de-sac.
The idea that your suggesting - that moderate labour members would rather have a Tory government than a Corbyn one is both ludicrous and insulting. Its precisely because we want to get rid of this shower and have a Labour government in place that we want rid of the useless, totally ineffective 70's throwback.
Any leader worth his salt would have taken action against Chris Williamson over his antisemitic behaviour this week
Heard anything from the Labour 'Leadership' yet?
No... me neither
Expect any action to be taken against him (a Corbyn ally)?
No... me neither
How do you think this all looks to swing voters in key marginals? You know... the ones you need to get onside to win elections?
Maybe we could get all the Jews to wear ‘Not in my name’ t-shirts so we could easily identify them?Or some kind of badge or insignia?
what a clever comment - not.
what about the anti- iraq war protests - that's pretty much what they were doing - saying that the actions of the government weren't in their name. Maybe they shouldn't have done that?
the point is that people have difficulty seperating the actions of Israel from the jewish faith. So maybe give them a helping hand to realise the difference, rather than sitting there bleating about anti-semitism.
or maybe just frequent internet forums and virtue-signal all day, because that makes a big difference.
Perhaps the best bet is for Jeremy Corbyn to express his unwavering support for Israel, demand air strikes against Syria and Iran and pledge to develop ‘even closer ties between Britain and Israel’ if he becomes PM...
Some proper anti-semitic mentalists on this thread.
Turnerguy, get lost and go and apologise on behalf of all Christian white men to each individual nation Britain colonised.
How about asking all Muslims to distance themselves from Islamic terrorism and 9/11 - each group and country individually - Iran, Hamas, Isis etc etc etc
the point is that people have difficulty seperating the actions of Israel from the jewish faith
Only if they're a bit thick.
My family is Irish Catholic. Should I be apologising for the Birmingham pub bombings?
While he is leader of the Labour party it doesn’t have a cat in hells chance of forming a government.
Totally agree. It would be hard for any leader to win an election when his parliamentary colleagues accuse him of being a racist along with many other absurd accusations. He doesn't do himself any favours of course, the Chris Williamson issue being a case in point, but you can't seriously suggest that the actions of moderate labour MPs haven't damaged him, and the party's chances at the next election. It's both tragic and completely unnecessary.
Binners, the hilarious thing is that their attitudes just cause more Jews to feel the need to move to Israel.
There was a famous one recently, an Arab in France told a Jewish Philosopher to **** off back to Israel - but then they hate and protest against them going there as well.
As if making all Jews feel uncomfortable is going to resolve the issue.
Some proper anti-semitic mentalists on this thread.
where exactly are the anti-semitic comments ?
Turnerguy, piss off and go and apologise on behalf of all Christian white men to each individual nation Britain colonised.
that couldn't be interpreted as being done in my name as I wasn't around then, but if it were being done now and I didn't agree with it then I don't see the problem with me making it known that I didn't agree with it, particularly to anyone who sought to blame me for my government's actions.
But the fact that it’s supposedly ‘labour’ people who are doing their job for them is beyond the pale.
Where does Tom Watson, the elected deputy leader of the "Labour" (big L) Party, fit in with your conspiracy theories?
Jeremy Corbyn is totally unelectable
Agreed... here's my 2p
I'll never vote for Labour whilst he's leader, I don't mind him staying on as an MP or being part of the Cabinet as a voice for the more left leaning Labour supporters, and I'm told he's an excellent MP for his constituents.
I won't vote for Labour whilst 'Momentum' and other organisations like it control so much of the party, I've decided they're not very nice people, they don't have my interests in mind and I don't agree with their politics and policies.
Okay, I am only one vote, but nationally I represent the view of millions of like-minded people. Data from the last election suggests people like me held on till the very, very last moment before deciding they couldn't vote for anyone else, or indeed stay away so we pinched our nose and voted for Labour but my stance on that has changed and current polls suggest I'm far from alone, as much as I like my local Labour MP (mostly because she's Anti-Brexit and votes against Labour to try to stop it).
So, for the Hardcore Labour supporters who don't agree with me - do you really think STW is an online Tory heartland - really? Do you think it's in your best interests to call us all Tories, tell us we're wrong when every passing week brings more evidence we're right, or try to explain away the indefensible? Because we're all voters with an interest in politics, otherwise we wouldn't be here.
Labour lost the last election, as hard to accept as that might seem what with JC and crew cheering about coming second, Labour lost and Maybot and the Tories have 5 years in power.
The great socialist uprising failed, it didn't work, the momentum has stalled and membership is falling. If they couldn't beat the seemingly unelectable May, they won't beat them with a fresh new leader in 2022, not when they've finally driven away Centrists like me, not when you're losing MPs who'd rather spend years without a party than support Corbyn.
Sometimes you have to accept that in order to affect change you have to appeal to the majority of people and what they want - not try to dictate to us what you think we should have and berate us is we don't agree.
Only if they’re a bit thick.
which seems to be a significant portion of the population.
Witness how anti-semitic feeling and attacks increases after Israel 'cross the line' in their actions. Witness the number of flat-earthers, the number of people that think corbyn is a gentle, kindly, competant type of politician...
that couldn’t be interpreted as being done in my name as I wasn’t around then, but if it were being done now and I didn’t agree with it then I don’t see the problem with me making it
You are, for the same reason you'd be called an islamophobe for asking all Muslims to speak out on terrorism.
that couldn’t be interpreted as being done in my name as I wasn’t around then
Again, the actions of the current Israeli government could only be interpreted as being done in the name of all Jews if you're thick and/or prejudiced. They are no more responsible for the actions of Israel than you are for the actions of your forefathers.
Incidentally, you still benefit from all the wealth your ancestors pillaged from the east. Maybe you should give it back and apologise for handling stolen goods.
Again, the actions of the current Israeli government could only be interpreted as being done in the name of all Jews if you’re thick and/or prejudiced.
This is a totally valid comment...
However, the problem here is we're not talking solely in terms of anti-semitism, but in terms of it's apparent hold of the Labour Party; to do that without taking into account the very real influence of Israel in dark political manipulation behind the scenes is deceptive.
Do you think it’s in your best interests to call us all Tories
And who has done that? As for not being able to vote labour because you don't like the leader, that's a daft position. You vote for the polilcies and the party which best represents your interests and beliefs. I voted labour in 2005 even though I though Tony Blair was a war criminal and had no problems doing so, because it's about more than personalities or individuals.
And this centrism thing. Again, as a centrist which policies do you disagree with? If you take out the personalities what is it about labour's policies and values which you couldn't vote for?
Oh yeah... I'd almost forgotten that the Jews run everything behind the scenes. And that Mossad are normally behind anything dodgy going on in the world
Those bastards are setting Jezza up aren't they, as they fear the upcoming socialist revolution?
It all makes perfect sense now....
Damn, next you'll be asking for evidence for such outlandish claims...
As for not being able to vote labour because you don’t like the leader, that’s a daft position. You vote for the polilcies and the party which best represents your interests and beliefs.
How about expecting a basic level of competency? I broadly agree with most labour policy (such as it is), but I wouldn't trust Corbyn and some of the idiots around him to run a bath. never mind the country's economy.
I also look at him and his ilk and always get the feeling (because of how they conduct themselves now) that if they did get any power, they'd get very very authoritarian very very quickly (loyalty pledges anyone?), and that policies that don't appear that radical would soon get ratcheted up to be so
Maybe thats just me, but I doubt it
When asked in polls 'who do you trust to.....?' folowed by pretty much any question Mays Tory party scores way above labour.
That fact in itself should have the lot of them resigning out of pure unadulterated shame.
Take a look at the state this country is in. How is that even possible?!! Its dereliction of duty on an epic scale. Their failure to offer an electable alternative to this utter shitshow is the most damning indictment that anyone could deliver. Complete and utter failure
And they look like they don't even care!!!
but I wouldn’t trust Corbyn and some of the idiots around him to run a bath. never mind the country’s economy.
But what choice do you have? Even if you despise Corbyn for whatever reason, you still should vote labour if you agree with the policies, because if you don't, the only alternative is continued tory austerity and all the things that come with it.
Labour MPs have a simple choice, work with the leadership and members and do everything possible to ensure a labour govt, or don't and ensure a tory govt. They don't have to pledge loyalty to Corbyn or whoever else, they don't have to like him, and they don't have to share a platform with him. All they have to do is promote the policies and not give anyone any reason to vote against them. And that goes for the likes of Chris Williamson et al too who are being equally damaging with their idiotic rants about anti-semitism.
Policies versus personality is an interesting concept. There is no way I could ever vote for the Tories but could I vote Labour. Not at the moment, no, even though I like the majority of their policies. I just have no faith in the abilities or intelligence of the likes of Jeremy Corbyn, Dianne Abbott and Barry Gardiner to actually deliver.
You want the moderate MPs to 'work with the leadership and the members' (which in itself sounds a bit Stalinist) for a leader they know full well is unelectable, no matter what they do?
If you were working for a company where they got a new boss in who was clearly mental, and started instigating policies that were sure to bankrupt the business, would you 'work with the leadership and the members' or look for another job and get the * out of there?
I've said before, if it wasn't for the Brexit vortex we're all stuck in, I think the labour party would be no more. The vast majority of its MPs would have gone over to TIG and start to build a credible, electable, centrist party, leaving the completely unelectable lefties to gallop off to Far Left irrelevance, taking the 6th formers with them
The bottom line is Jeremy Corbyn will never leave of his own volition, until death, and while he's there the labour party is electorally *ed!
As soon as we reach any kind of resolution of Brexit, if we ever do, that day marks the end of the labour party in its present incarnation. I doubt its got more than a few months left in it anyway, to be honest. And whatever shape it takes next, it won't be Corbynite. That will be viewed for what it is/was. A misguided, accidental trip down memory lane to a 1970's political dead end
Daz - much as I love you, and appreciate the time you've spent at the top of hills waiting for me t catch up, your attitude on this particular subject is absolutely bonkers. But having said that, its totally in tune with 'the leadership/politburo' 😉
You are, for the same reason you’d be called an islamophobe for asking all Muslims to speak out on terrorism.
only to a snowflake - the concepts are the same - one group pointing out to another group, with clearly limited mental faculties, that they are mistakenly failing to distinguish between two groups of people - religion has bugger all to do with it.
You want the moderate MPs to ‘work with the leadership and the members’ (which in itself sounds a bit Stalinist) for a leader they know full well is unelectable, no matter what they do?
Absolutely. Corbyn was elected in a democratic vote under the labour party constitution, and everyone should accept that decision, no matter if they disagree with him or dislike him. It's not Stalinist, it's democracy. They don't have to bend the knee to him, they just need to promote the party's policies and not slag him off in public. I don't see why that is so difficult.
your attitude on this particular subject is absolutely bonkers
My attitude to politics is driven by one simple principle: Anyone but the tories. I don't see what is bonkers about that. Corbyn won't be around forever, and what he'll leave behind is a set of policies which I think all labour minded people can agree on, along with a more democratic party with the largest activist base in Europe.
Actually there's another argument here that I can't be arsed going into in much detail but the gist of it is that Corbyn is a direct result of the failure of the managerialist centrist politics of Blair, Brown and Miliband, so if we're really looking for reasons why the labour party is in the state it's in we may want to go back to them and ask whether they should repeat the same mistakes?
I broadly agree with most labour policy (such as it is), but I wouldn’t trust Corbyn and some of the idiots around him to run a bath. never mind the country’s economy.
You realise they don't really do that don't you? People that know what they are doing do the actual work and implementation. Labour's policies are currently great and I would vote for any leader with those policies within their manifesto.
I don't mind Corbyn and like McDonnell but I have said many times I think Corbyn should have gone a while ago as he is limiting chances of election.
I think Corbyn should have gone a while ago as he is limiting chances of election
The problem with with that is who to replace him? The irony is that in the current climate there’s no way he’s going to stand aside as it will be seen as giving credence to those who are disgracefully calling him a racist.
Corbyn was elected in a democratic vote under the labour party constitution, and everyone should accept that decision, no matter if they disagree with him or dislike him. It’s not Stalinist, it’s democracy.
Is that how Jeremy performed when just a humble MP? Did he tow the party line at all times?
Maybe thats just me, but I doubt it
No as normal you are repeating the insinuations from some of the "moderates" and also the hard right and seemingly thinking you have arrived at it by yourself. I am curious how you square his plans for authoritarianism with the fact quite a few of his rebel votes were against new labours love of setting up the framework for authoritarianism.
Also
loyalty pledges anyone?
Seriously?
Remember you made a fool of yourself last time bringing this up. Are you hoping everyone has forgotten?
It had **** all to do with Corbyn. In both the being behind it sense and that the pledge was to the party not him.
Time for another picture?
for a leader they know full well is unelectable, no matter what they do?
Do we know that? Remember the last election was launched because we were all told he was so utterly unelectable the tories would have the greatest landslide ever?
Wonder what would have happened if instead of continuing to rant and rave about how unelectable he is people decided to try and work with him and instead of repeating whatever moronic misrepresentation of what he said was provided by the ERG and friends they actually challenged it?
The problem with with that is who to replace him? The irony is that in the current climate there’s no way he’s going to stand aside as it will be seen as giving credence to those who are disgracefully calling him a racist.
McDonnell seems like he would miles better as a politican, way way sharper than JC, but he has spoken about having had quite a serious heart attack a few years ago, and expecting his career to be winding down, so perhaps he is putting his health first. I mean he is a busy man and all, but the treatment Corbyn gets is just a different level - Tabloid press crawling up his ringpiece 24/7. Don't find much to praise JC about, but he's surprisingly tough for a bloke who's never had to make a decision for 40 years. To go from relative backbench obscurity to that could decimate your mental health tbh.
Saying that, I reckon McDonnell would get eviscerated at the ballot box (and is probably aware of this). Smear tactics backfire with JC because even Daily mail readers can see he's basically a decent bloke, bit of a cuddly dim lefty with his heart in the right place. McDonnell isn't cuddly or dim and would seem a threatening prospect to middle England.
Corbyn was elected in a democratic vote under the labour party constitution, and everyone should accept that decision, no matter if they disagree with him or dislike him.
Democracy does mean that you can not question a decision the majority have made. That is not democracy at all. You can campaign and push for a different party leader, or different parliamentary candidate, or different party, other than the one which "won" the last vote that was held. I'm sure it will be pretty easy to find an old speech by the current leader of the Labour Party to that effect. He was known to ocassionaly speak out against the democratically elected leader of his party, before he was in that position.
Democracy does mean that you can not question a decision the majority have made.
True, and I agree. But there's a massive difference between 'questioning' the decision and disagreeing with it, and actively refusing to accept it. From day one Corbyn's opponents said they would not accept the decision. Some were quoted as saying they do something every day to undermine him. They tried to get him out at the first opportunity, as was their right, and lost again by an even bigger margin. Again they refused to accept it. When leading moderates were asked if they would join the shadow cabinet, they refused. Even during the election campaign they couldn't bring themselves to support the policies, and when he did much better than they all said he would, they sniped that he didn't do well enough, and complained that they were now stuck with him. If it wasn't for those pesky voters eh? Since then we've had prominent figures calling him a racist and anti-semite when this is plainly not the case, and smearing him with all manner of ridiculous accusations.
So yes, I do think the moderates have done huge damage to labour's election chances, and I have no doubt that was their goal because the only way to get him out is to prove that he is unelectable by being massively defeated in an election. Unfortunately the last election showed otherwise, and the tragedy is that had they spent their energies getting behind the policies and the party, they almost certainly would have won.
Williamson suspended.
Democracy does mean that you can not question a decision the majority have made.
so how has that worked out for Brexit then ?
I missed out the word "not", as I'm sure the rest of my post made clear.
difference between ‘questioning’ the decision and disagreeing with it,
No, there isn't… I think we have the wrong MP here, the wrong PM leading our government, and the wrong policy on Brexit. All three have been voted for, and in all three cases I think, and will say, that I disagree. MPs and party members are free to say what they think about decisions made or espoused by their party, including who leads it. If they want to be in the cabinet or shadow cabinet, then that changes things… but back benchers and party members can, and should, say what they think.
Unfortunately the last election showed otherwise,
The last election wasn’t about policies.
Aaaah yes.... how silly of me. I forgot that if I wasn’t buying into the cult of Corbyn it’s because I’m a capitalist stooge, enslaved by the right wing media, totally incapable of independent thought and a lackey of the military industrial complex
You lot should get yourself a new script 😂
Kevin Barton
Jim Fitzpatrick
Caroline Flint
Stephen Hepburn
Kate Hoey
John Mann
Graham Stringer
7 Labour party "problems" right there for you.
Facilitating a hard-right Brexit is the new socialism, comrade
Somehow
No... me neither
The last election wasn’t about policies.
Really? I suppose it was Corbyn's sparkling personality and charisma that overturned a 20 point poll deficit then?
I forgot that if I wasn’t buying into the cult of Corbyn, t’s because I’m a capitalist stooge
Binners this is almost beginning to sound a bit paranoid. I know a fair few people in momentum or who are labour activists I can assure you their focus is on the policies and not Corbyn. I don't know which ones you've met but the ones I know couldn't be further from what you describe.
Really? I suppose it was Corbyn’s sparkling personality and charisma that overturned a 20 point poll deficit then?
Yes, of course it was dazh. It was absolutely Corbyn and his competent leadership team. You keep telling yourself that.
