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[i]Its good advice, two winter tyres is a bad idea, but they're giving you that advice for commercial reasons which is they want to sell you 4 tyres instead of 2. The other garages are happy to not give you that advice because they would rather sell you 2 tyres instead of non.[/i]
+1
While I'd happily run around with mis-matched tyres, and drive accordingly I wouldn't recommend it for someone unaware of the risks.
I'm glad that I have my completely unnecessary 4x4 with decent tyres as well as being able to drive properly ( not assumed ability but the result of many hours of training and practice ) - it doesn't mean im an an expert or that I'm never going to get stuck but reduces the chances of that happening.
Winter tyres on the front - no problem, you're not going to instantly die - just learn how the car behaves
Winter
While I'd happily run around with mis-matched tyres, and drive accordingly I wouldn't recommend it for someone unaware of the risks.
I think that's the nub of it. People on here are highly intelligent and have driving skills way above the norm, so while you or I will be able to cope with the odd unexpected drift or spin, Mr or Mrs Average Driver will be completely unaware of the risks. I reckon if the guys at Kwikfit had realised the OP was a STWer, their attitude might have been quite different.
It's not just snow/ice that winter tyres are for - ours offer superb grip even in the wet (below approx. 7'C or lower).
The "grip limit" of the car is far higher.
The grip on non-winter tyres isn't that bad! I'd factor in peoples driving habits/too close etc etc before I'd get to tyres!!
I think that's the nub of it. People on here are highly intelligent and have driving skills way above the norm, so while you or I will be able to cope with the odd unexpected drift or spin, Mr or Mrs Average Driver will be completely unaware of the risks. I reckon if the guys at Kwikfit had realised the OP was a STWer, their attitude might have been quite different.
🙂 We should get a badge or certificate or something
We should get a badge or certificate or something
That would be classy. We might even be able to arrange an insurance loading to reflect our elevated driving abilities... I'm all for a STW race series - chipped turbo diesel estates with fully-loaded bike racks on the roof and diagonally split winter/summer tyre set-ups giving it some around the Mountain on the Isle of Man or the Nurburgthing. Only then would the full majesty of our driving talents be properly apparent. 🙂
Got my winter tyres from Funky Tyres - loads cheaper than any of the big online sellers and they were delivered direct from Nokian in 3 days. If you message them or post on their Facebook page what you want they will quote various options.
Then got them fitted by a local tyre place for £30 for 4.
Northwind - Member
Understeering nice and predictably into a ditch or oncoming traffic isn't really better than oversteering tbh. It's just a basic fallacy, seems sensible enough but keeping grip on the front doesn't instantly cause the rear to break loose! The reality is, with many cars there's a big margin between the point at which the front would have lost traction, and the point at which the back would. And this is the area you exploit with front winters and back "normals"Or to put it another way- the rears break loose at the same point, regardless of what tyres you put on the front. So at the point where the front would slide and the rears wouldn't, you now don't slide at all. And that extends right up to the point at which you'd have lost the rear anyway. Worst case scenario is that it gives you the capability to drive recklessly and crash, so, don't.
Speaking from experience of just 2 cars, so I wouldn't presume to speak for all cars, but for mine it's been effective. Got 4 on this year (and obviously it will not snow) but if I had 2, I'd fit 2. My own experience is that 2 winters is much safer than none, and delivers a large part of the benefit of 4, absolutely no question whatsoever.
Disagree with all of that. You're going against the advice of every tyre company, the AA, the RAC etc.
Watch this, it's filmed on ice but the same would apply to wet roads:
retro83- those videos show what happens if you try and drive with 2 winter tyres as though you had 4, which of course is a bad idea. They don't show you the gap between 2 winter tyres and none. What happens in the real world is you drive to the capability of the vehicle and your ability, you don't drive to the capability of one set of tyres and ignore everything else.
The advice I'm seeing now from tyre companies is "If you've only got one set of tyres, and you can benefit from winter tyres, then you should fit them all year round" which most people seem to ignore. But regarding mixing, as ever, corporate advice has to be for everyone, ie the lowest common denominator. Before that inspires some sneery "driving gods" comment, the advice isn't designed even for the average driver, or the below average driver, it's designed for the worst driver.
I'm a perfectly normal driver, no elite skillz are required to feel the benefit of 2 winter tyres over none on a fwd car. My experience as a normal driver is that 4 are better than 2, 2 are better than none, unless you are a dangerous driver in which case, you are probably dangerous regardless.
I wonder how many people who disagree have actually tried it?
If only there were someone who could give us advice on how to drive awesomely.
Pff, He would never deign to drive a fwd car.
Is Glupton currently banned? It's not a proper driving thread without Glupton.
On those clips. If I could afford 4 I'd buy 4.
I would never drive at those speeds in those conditions in any tyres so the adhesion would be better...thus less dramatic if they drove normally.
I've driven on snow in normal tyres. My rear end didn't break away because I drove SLOWLY. Especially if ice is around.
If there really IS proper ice unless you have spiked tyres - its in the lap of the Gods.
Watch this, it's filmed on ice but the same would apply to wet roads:
No it wouldn't. A wet road can be slippery but if you are lifting off/applying brakes/steering input with a blip of the throttle you will get the rear or front to step out.
Driver skill first. Then tyres.
Driver skill first. Then tyres.
Hahaha.. so let's just get everyone to go down to Kwik Fit, they can spend £300 and be made into great drivers.
When did I say tyres buys skills/carcraft?
i give in,
the laws of physics and designing vehicles to be inherently safe in the real world is obviously worth nothing on STW.
You are all far better drivers then the industry designs vehicles for.
I presume you are also persecuted by laws on speeding / parking etc..
When did I say tyres buys skills/carcraft?
You didn't, I was being sarcastic. Of course driver skills are vital but they cannot be easily bought. Tyres can though.
On Sat morning there was a snap snowblizzard on one half of Snake Pass. I was talking to a driver of a 4WD newish V70 about our chances of getting through safely (nil) so we turned round. I remember saying 'its not the snow I fear its other drivers'. He agreed. Same with the M60 near Barton Bridge- drivers cant regulate their speed. Its almost fatalistic. Everytime theres even a slight bit of rain theres gridlock due to rear-ends in the evening rush hour. People speed too much, yes there are better stopping distances with better tyres but people will just stamp on the brake. They wont even think before a developing hazzard or warning signs.
Give up- UK roads are scary. Then the fog and snow comes.
The ones on it are gubbed and I'm off to the Alps in the not too distant.
Then why are you even thinking about fitting just 2?
I can see why people would think it's a good idea in the UK but madness in the Alps, if it's even legal. you may well find yourself in a spot of bother with the French Police if you have a crash with only 2 winter tyres fitted. I don't think they are legal requirement but advisable but mixing types is definitely not advisable and might see you in trouble.
If you end up over the swiss border you may also end up in trouble if your car is not suitably equipped for the conditions.
Northwind - Memberretro83- those videos show what happens if you try and drive with 2 winter tyres as though you had 4, which of course is a bad idea. They don't show you the gap between 2 winter tyres and none. What happens in the real world is you drive to the capability of the vehicle and your ability, you don't drive to the capability of one set of tyres and ignore everything else.
The advice I'm seeing now from tyre companies is "If you've only got one set of tyres, and you can benefit from winter tyres, then you should fit them all year round" which most people seem to ignore. But regarding mixing, as ever, corporate advice has to be for everyone, ie the lowest common denominator. Before that inspires some sneery "driving gods" comment, the advice isn't designed even for the average driver, or the below average driver, it's designed for the worst driver.
I'm a perfectly normal driver, no elite skillz are required to feel the benefit of 2 winter tyres over none on a fwd car. My experience as a normal driver is that 4 are better than 2, 2 are better than none, unless you are a dangerous driver in which case, you are probably dangerous regardless.
I wonder how many people who disagree have actually tried it?
I know what you're saying and agree to a point regarding driving to the conditions, but I still think it's dangerous should something unexpected happen and you needing to swerve or brake heavily.
I had new tyres put on the front of my car last time and the part worns moved to the back, a while later I had to brake hard on a roundabout when some phallus piled out in front of me at about 30mph and the back end swung out to quite an alarming angle. It was only wet/oily not snowy and the ESP caught it before I could even get any lock on, but it certainly opened my eyes to how much the dynamics of the car had changed at its limits.
Have run 2 winters on front of the T4 for last couple of years with no issues, tested how hard I had to push it to get the back to break free on snow ( heavily treated van tyres anyway) and found you'd have to be driving like a tool to make it do it. ( on a private deserted road I might add 😉 )
I wouldn't fit 2 on the passat though as the standard tread on the rears is a lot lower profile and would make it a lot more 'backendy' than it does with the van, that a twice as much horsepower. ( dispite my driving awesomzness )
Fitted 2 winter tyres on the front of my A-class previously due to how crap the previous tyres were with snow.
Compared to the normal tyres I could get up the hill to my house when it had snowed whereas previously I had no chance, the only other cars getting up there were 4x4's and an Peugeot 106 with super skinny tyres on.
I drove it with those same tyres on for best part of a year prior to selling it and surprisingly I didn't die.
As usual on here a lot of assumptions are being made, I fitted them purely for the extra traction in snow at slow speeds not for driving Colin McCrae style everywhere.
As Hora said if I could afford 4 then yes I would probably have got them fitted all round but 2 are better than none for the reasons I mentioned above.
No point fitting them on the rear wheels when I want extra traction to climb the hilly roads where I live when its snowing with it being a FWD car, maybe the OP has the same reasoning.
No tyre in the world is going to save you if you drive like a bell end or not adapt for the conditions.
Winter tyres are a aid to staying in control when the weather changes, so 2 Winter tyres would potentially give you a 50% better chance of maintaining control/grip as opposed to the same car with summer tyres all round.
4 Winter tyres would be better still.
I shall be running 2 winter tyres again on my Kangoo van and hopefully I wont spin out at the end of my drive.
retro83 - MemberI know what you're saying and agree to a point regarding driving to the conditions, but I still think it's dangerous should something unexpected happen and you needing to swerve or brake heavily.
Yeah, see, I agree in some circumstances it certainly could be less safe- especially in those emergency/unplanned situations where you might not have a lot of subtlety or thought going on. But then those circumstances are generally going to be trouble in bad conditions if you have no winter tyres, too. Maybe a different sort of trouble! But that's offset against the safety and usability improvement all the rest of the time, and even in those bad situations it does give you more capability and more options. Just, while some of those options involve stopping or evading better than you could otherwise, other options involve driving backwards into another car 😉
I suppose what I should clarify is, I'm in favour of 4 winter tyres- it's what's on the car now. I'd never choose 2 if 4 was an option. But I'd choose 2 if it's 2 or none. Oh, also maybe I'm biased in that I don't use "summer" tyres or rubbish tyres so whatever is on the back will be at least some use in winter. But these are things that change the equation a bit.
LATERAL GRIP people.. Don't be stupid only fitting 2 up front.
Ps.. Insurance company will not like only 2 winters tyes either.
rickt - MemberPs.. Insurance company will not like only 2 winters tyes either.
Mine are perfectly happy- they didn't seem to understand why I even asked.
^^ till you make a claim. You may have spoke to someone on day 2 on the job.........
It's illegal in other countries for a reason... Ie the ones where motorists are educated and have experience of the benefits
Your life.. Your call ..
rickt - Member^^ till you make a claim. You may have spoke to someone on day 2 on the job..
That's why you get things in writing. But since they think it makes me safer they're not too bothered. Thanks for your[s] concern [/s]illinformed scaremongering though
if it's even legal. you may well find yourself in a spot of bother with the French Police
French regs require that you carry chains and that's all.
That's why you get things in writing. But since they think it makes me safer they're not too bothered. Thanks for your concern illinformed scaremongering though
I just can not understand why you would go against multiple sources of advice and run a mixed category tyre set up?
In regards to the insurance, having something in writing does not make it right.
as i said... your call
LATERAL GRIP people.. Don't be stupid only fitting 2 up front.
Can you do something about the vehicle dynamics of my Wife's Honda Jazz that has about 30% less front lateral grip than the rear with the same 4 tyres please?
This is the problem. Modern, affordable cars are mostly a load of crap. They've traded handling for grip by using more advanced tyre technology. That's great until, for whatever reason, you reach the tyre's limit, and then you're stuck in an understeering deathtrap.
Still you've got 18 airbags, 14 electronic driving assists, 11 crumple zones, SIPS, baby ejector seats etc to appease the petrified public.