Forum menu
Have you seen the way some teenage fans behave.
Rational thinking may not always prevail.
Not meaning to derail this back onto the subject, but
I think we need to know what he actually did and put things into some perspective
You can quite literally use Google to find out the claims.
It sounds non ideal but consistent with a reasonably normal range of behaviour and far, far away from Weinstein type antics. He had a party, this guy got bored and went to watch telly in his bedroom, he was drunk and horny and someone was in his room, he made a drunken clumsy OTT attempt at seduction that may have strayed into sexual assault, particularly considering his age. Ill advised/wrong, but miles away from tricking people into coming into your hotel room and trying to coerce them into sexual acts.
Didn't we already do the "all men are monsters" thread recently? I seem to recall it went really well.
chip - MemberWhat percentage of men would behave like that if they thought they could get away with it.
Sadly probably a lot more than you would hope.
Take a look at the international statistics for rape, but keep in mind that in some countries and cultures it is basically impossible for a man to be convicted of rape, and (often in the same culture) women who allege rape will be punished by the law.
Rape and gross sexual harassment is not as prevalent in modern civilised cultures because of empathy and respect. Most men could probably get away with a rape or sexual assault if they planned it out. Same with murder. We're not hanging by a thread on the precipice of violent or sexual crimes at a moments notice, there are cultural and ethical reasons why this is so, not just the fact it's illegal.
A pop star sleeping with groupies isn't comparable to Weinstein, it's the complete opposite. Famous women, if they were want to do so could also sleep with plenty of their fans.
.
.
Not meaning to derail this back onto the subject, but
All I can find is he picked him up and put him on the bed and tried to get with me sexually which could mean many things but there still is the age thing.
He could have been a strapping lad at fourteen that his age may not have been apparent to spacey in his state.
Does it say if he knew how old he was.
A pop star sleeping with groupies isn't comparable to Weinstein, it's the complete opposite.
I did not mean to compare it just asking a question,
I wonder if Meryl Streep will give her views on all the matters happening at Hollywood now ... hhmmm ... I wonder.
There have been rumours about his liking young men for many years, along with hints of sleaziness. I don't recall anything about underage boys or sexual assault but let's see what emerges now.
What percentage of men would behave like that if they thought they could get away with it.
Well I did some reading around this recently as a result of 'that' thread and there are a number of studies that give figures which range between 2% and 4%. Don't ask me to cite the papers, you can do your own research.
Of course as close to 100% as makes no difference have at some point made a pass at someone.
The Spacey story is only troubling because of the age of the individual concerned but that itself is only based on if he knew beyond reasonable doubt that the boy was under age. At 14, it would be difficult not to.
philjunior - Member
Not meaning to derail this back onto the subject, but
I think we need to know what he actually did and put things into some perspectiveYou can quite literally use Google to find out the claims.
It sounds non ideal but consistent with a reasonably normal range of behavior and far, far away from Weinstein type antics. He had a party, this guy got bored and went to watch telly in his bedroom, he was drunk and horny and someone was in his room, he made a drunken clumsy OTT attempt at seduction that may have strayed into sexual assault, particularly considering his age. Ill advised/wrong, but miles away from tricking people into coming into your hotel room and trying to coerce them into sexual acts.
That's how I read it - it's a 30 year old memory & there's no telling how much of it was true but you could spin it to Spacey's perspective (not that he can recall it) that at the end of the party he found an attractive young lad on his bed so he thought "my luck's in" so he (clumsily) tested the water and got turned down, lad went home. End of. There's no indication Spacey knew his age at the time.
Spacey can have had no control over the memories in the Anthony Rapp's head as he was completely unaware of them and Rapp has made it clear he made no effort to broach the subject with him so they could reach some kind of "closure".
I know what it's like to have someone's inadvertent misdeed burn away at you for years and it's not pleasant but even I can see that from the description that this isn't the black and white attempted child rape story some might want it to be.
Oh and Spacey's been openly gay for a long while. It's not news.
House of Cards has been cancelled [s]mid filming.[/s]
^ it would appear that Kevin may have a lot of skeletons in his now open closet. Shame he chose to hang coming out which what appears to be a habit of sexual predatory behaviour ... maybe
I'm not sure how he could comment on an allegation made by another man, without "coming out".
Boo!House of Cards has been cancelled [s]mid filming[/s].
Why now? Why are we having this debate about old Hollywood guys when meanwhile, on the other side of the USA, a man sits in a big chair in a big white house. A man who said “I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. When you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.”
All of this outrage is misplaced. We’re making guesses and insinuations about what may or may not have happened to a fairly well-known actor, and yet the President of United States admits sexual assault on camera and we’ve all forgotten just a few months later.
<Insert your favourite Walter Sobcek image here>
^^ not an unreasonable question but then we have the whole Bill Clinton saga
Yep, but don't worry we can play the word association game all day...
http://www.newnownext.com/19-republican-politicians-brought-down-by-big-gay-sex-scandals/12/2016/
https://www.ranker.com/list/republican-sex-scandals/web-infoguy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_sex_scandals_in_the_United_States#2010.E2.80.932017
What we can say is that there is a power problem. Then there is the acceptance issue where people still voted for a guy who was proud to confess to sexual assault and the rest
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/26/16526922/harvey-weinstein-donald-trump-sexual-harassment
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/27/donald-trump-sexual-harassment-claims-women-lying-white-house
the amount of standards it's hard to use term double there
Seems maybe Spacey's house of cards may be starting to fall.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41812439
House of Cards has been cancelled mid filming.
To be completely narcissistic, next series (which they're still going to make) shouldn't have been the last anyway, the story is told, the negative press on the actor will make it easier to kill of the character, which is how it should have always ended.
Sometimes it needs a trial by media to kick the authorities into doing anything. Far too often complaints of sexual misconduct, assault and rape have been ignored by the authorities we rely on to protect us because of the supposed power and/or fame of the perpetrator. The Saville revelations went some way to chip away at the abuse by celebrities in the UK, the Wheinstine case looks to have done so again at a wider group of authority figures and more internationally.
Yes, obviously it gets talked about and the subject matter emblazoned all over the media platform....
As is proven by a thread on single track about it.
But..... and it is a big BUT.... you’ve all made your own minds up about guilt/sexual harassment/punishment without really knowing what the circumstances were between the two individuals.
Witchunt by Media is what it is, and you’re all involved in it.
so he thought "my luck's in" so he (clumsily) tested the water and got turned down, lad went home. End of. There's no indication Spacey knew his age at the time
Ah, but according to a lot of people who commented on the other thread, this ^^^ is the very definition of sexual harassment.
Quite a number of people who posted on that thread made it really clear that the definition of harassment/assualt is whatever the person on the receiving end of that approach thought of the approach.
If they decided that they've been harassed or assaulted then, according to some poeple, that is enough for it to be so.
I'm with you though; I think that making a pass at someone doesn't automatically consistue harassment or assault, but it might based on other variables.
Of course, the real issue with the Spacey story is the age of the individual. A 14 year old boy rarely looks like anything other than a 14 year old boy. It almost certainly doesn't make Stacey guilty of peodphillia (as has been suggested by others in the press), but it's clearly very wrong.
Quote from Julia Hartley-Brewer is interesting -
[i]"I believe it is absurd and wrong to treat workplace banter and flirting – and even misjudged sexual overtures – between consenting adults as being morally equivalent to serious sexual harassment or assault,” she said in a statement.
“It demeans genuine victims of real offences."
I [i]kind of[/i] agree with her - but there is a problem where one of the consenting adults has "power" (ie. is their superior in the workplace) over the other. Then it should be reported - but NOT to the World! Just to their HR departments.
That a bloke putting his hand on a woman's knee (15 YEARS AGO!!) is now national news is utterly ridiculous.
(sorry, not Spacey related, but relevant-ish!)
Witchunt by Media is what it is, and you’re all involved in it.
Whilst that may be true, you don't seem to show any qualms of doing exactly that when it comes to politicians.
[/url]CallmeDumbass proved that even porking pork doesn’t get you sacked.
and 13 in Spain until 2015.
FWIW that was more to do with gypsy weddings rather than something that would be socially acceptable in mainstream society - most of Spain has fairly similar views to the UK about the subject.
You are right, but that’s not illegal.
As far as I’m aware putting your nob in a dead pigs head is perfectly acceptable form of an initiation ceremony only Tories are perverse to..
Trying in vein to align that comment by me to this thread is very poor form, even by you.
Carry on.
That a bloke putting his hand on a woman's knee (15 YEARS AGO!!) is now national news is utterly ridiculous.
(sorry, not Spacey related, but relevant-ish!)
depends if it encourages more people to come forward , tho jhb has couched her statement so that anyone that let him go further will be seen as weaker than her.
Interestingly Fallon isnt on the tory spreadsheet (despite having previous for allegedly getting too close to russian honey traps when drunk)
still Murdochs leak of this has been effective as its now being dissmissed as PC gone mad, rather than justifications for sackings, by-elections....
mogrim - Member
and 13 in Spain until 2015.FWIW that was more to do with gypsy weddings rather than something that would be socially acceptable in mainstream society - most of Spain has fairly similar views to the UK about the subject.
In my experience on school trips to Spain the constant, unwanted and lecherous attention from grown men toward 14 and 15 year old girls contradicts your post.
In my experience on school trips to Spain the constant, unwanted and lecherous attention from grown men toward 14 and 15 year old girls contradicts your post.
ime a random club night at Ritzys of Dunstable in my youth would see underage girls getting similar attention from lecherous drunk blokes.
kimbers - Memberime a random club night at Ritzys of Dunstable in my youth would see underage girls getting similar attention from lecherous drunk blokes.
Yeah well in a club there's at least the some plausibility that the girls in it will be over 18, dark lights and alcohol to lower inhibitions. Trying to grope a young girl on a sunny street in Barcelona in broad daylight or taxi drivers asking them to rub their chests is......different.
Yeah well in a club there's at least the some plausibility that the girls in it will be over 18,
tis true was often the bouncers that let them in
Im not saying dunstable was a shithole but the 1st girl in my year to get pregnant was teh daughter of the vicar & our school nurse!
(tbf it all passed me by as I was far too busy playing Dungeons & Dragons than being cool)
but I digress
Spacey is a sleazebag and his career is finished
I wondered why he was only ever good in American Beauty.
Why now? Why are we having this debate about old Hollywood guys when meanwhile, on the other side of the USA, a man sits in a big chair in a big white house. A man who said “I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. When you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.”
http://newsthump.com/2017/10/31/television-president-held-to-higher-standards-than-the-real-one/
Trying to grope a young girl on a sunny street in Barcelona in broad daylight or taxi drivers asking them to rub their chests is......different.
I've certainly not seen anything like that in Madrid.
Spacey committed a pedo act, simple as...but because he's a well liked 'luvvie' and at the same time came out as gay he cleverly and cynically moved himself into the victim category....which is odd because the left have always hated conflating homosexuality with pedophilia....but it would seem in Spacey's case/defence it's ok.
It's hilarious watching the double standards at play here.
This is the problem with social justice, it's not justice at all, it looks for victims, it looks for excuses for criminal behavior etc...how about not giving a crap what color, age or sexuality the perpetrator is and just prosecute the crime.
Spacey molested a 14yr old, charge him with it....it doesn't matter that he's gay, or was drunk or any of the other claptrap being spouted about his life....if any of these things are genuinely found to be mitigating factors then a jury will decide accordingly.
It's not rocket science.
he cleverly and cynically moved himself into the victim category
He hasn't done this at all. You're bringing your own agenda to it.
His career is potentially finished and there may well be legal charges arising, but you understood that detectives don't just charge someone based on a news headline, yeah?
Trying in [s]vein [/s] vain to align that comment by me to this thread is very poor form, even by you.
I know it is frightfully inconvenient when someone points out one's hypocrisy. But you carry on repeating some scuttlebutt, whilst criticizing people for discussing allegations where someone has actually gone on the record.
From a Popbitch promo email just now...
We'll be back as normal on Thursday. So if Kevin Spacey wants to prepare any more dogshit excuses, he has 48 hours.
They've been sharing rumours about him for many years.
i think you mean its amusing see you search for a way to make this all about lefties so you can shoehorn in your own personal agenda.It's hilarious watching the double standards at play here.
Back to the original post, I'm not sure he will get away with it ,whether he " happened " to be the last person there with a 14 year old by accident or design will need to be examined , if he is a predator on a more regular basis then the allegations will start emerging .I don't think it will end well for him.
Also - Netflix pulled the plug so quickly, I reckon they know which way the wind is blowing on this.
Spacey molested a 14yr old
Did he, has that detail now been published on the matter?
Sounded to me like a clumsy drunken attempt which went nowhere. If found guilty of that what would you even get, would it even make it to court?
you think it wont go to court if you pick up a 14 year old place them on your bed and then mount them ?
you really think this?
Sounded to me like a clumsy drunken attempt which went nowhere.
But presumably even attempting it is a problem when it is a minor.
Spacey committed a pedo act, simple as.
Well not technically, since pedophillia is the sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children and at 14, almost certainly you're beyond that. But we have an age of consent for a reason.
Sounded to me like a clumsy drunken attempt which went nowhere.
Notwithstanding the child's age, yes that's precisely what he and quite a lot of other men have done. Some haven't even done that. Some simply put their hand on a journalists knee and suddenly the witchfinder general demands they make a public apology.
It's absolutely right and proper that we call to account geniune instances of abuse, assault and harassment.
It's entirely wrong when we end up in a situation where all you need to be found guilty of 'something' is for Abigail Williams to stand up and cry 'I saw Goody Proctor dance with the Devil'.
he cleverly and cynically moved himself into the victim category
Did he? All the media coverage I've seen/read has been universally damning of his alleged actions and of his decision to come out at the same time.
..which is odd because the left..
Ah here we go. What on earth has left/right got to do with it??
You do realise the story was originally broken by BuzzFeed which is pretty far over on the lefty/liberal side of the divide?
You are bringing your own agenda and shoulder chips.
Some simply put their hand on a journalists knee
You think that's OK?
Julia herself said she did not consider it sexual assault or sexual harassment, she said he tried it on and she put him in his place.
It was 30 years ago and only 50% of the parties involved have any recollection of it. There is nothing to prove as nothing can be proven. There will be no evidence as there can be no evidence other than the poor (now 45 year old) lad's vivid memories of the night.
I'm the same age as he is and the things I can remember clearly from 30 years are very few &far between and what relationship they have with what actually happened are open to debate. The only reason to do this now is to hurt Spacey publicly and I think it'll have the desired effect. Is it fair that this happens in the public domain without any checks or balances of appropriate legal proceedings?
Spacey may be a serial offender but as yet no-one has come forward with anything that's gone to court so either he's innocent until proven otherwise.
..which is odd because the left have always hated conflating homosexuality with pedophilia
Gosh, the 'right' think homosexuals and paedophiles are one and the same? Now, that's odd.
You think that's OK?
Yep.
What wouldn't be OK is if having been asked to remove it you then did it again.
It was 30 years ago and only 50% of the parties involved [s]have[/s] admit any recollection of it.
Just made an important little amend there.
geetee1972 - Member
You think that's OK?Yep.
What wouldn't be OK is if having been asked to remove it you then did it again.
Any touching without consent is assault in law. Simple as.
tjagain - MemberAny touching without consent is assault in law. Simple as.
Nope.
Any touching without consent is assault in law. Simple as.
And yet millions of people do it every day without even thinking. Strange how we're not all locked up.
Actually I'm not sure simply touching is assuault. I think it has to be with intent and actually you don't need to have physical contact for assualt to be committed. It's enough to convey the intent with menace or otherwise.
Just made an important little amend there.
Yes, I thought the amnesia was a little convenient.
Some simply put their hand on a journalists knee and suddenly the witchfinder general demands they make a public apology.
Your terminology displays your agenda here. I think if you misread a signal you apologise and dont repeat it. However you cannot just put your hand on a persons leg and see if they complain. I fyou do this you do need to publicly apologise and perhaps go on a course.
If you do it in the workplace, when you are the person in power, then you really do need to be taken to task for this . At best its poor judgement and worse an abuse of power/sexual assault
Sorry chaps but that is the actual definition of assault - touching without consent. Yes it can be assault even without the touch but there is no need for intent to do anything other than touch from my understanding.
chakaping - Member
Also - Netflix pulled the plug so quickly, I reckon they know which way the wind is blowing on this.
They are finishing the season which was possibly going to be the last anyway
the house of cards had to collapse eventually
theres some irony in all of this that Spaceys defining roles have been in American Bueaty & as Frank Underwood
touching without consent
Not that wide,
The elements of the offence of sexual assault are:(i)A person (A) intentionally touches another person (B)
(ii) the touching is sexual
(iii) (B) does not consent to the touching, and
(iv) (A) does not reasonably believe that (B) consents.
From CPS site. Which I guess means touching a knee when you think you are in like Flynn would be not qualify until you are told to desist.
[quote=tjagain ]Any touching without consent is assault in law. Simple as.
Well no. Not simple.
As discussed on the ill-fated #MeToo thread, a blanket rule like that is overly-simplistic, inhuman and literally unenforceable.
thats sexual assault not a simple assault
What wouldn't be OK is if having been asked to remove it you then did it again.
Isn't that what he did?
Besides, if you think it's OK, what would you say if somebody did that to your wife?
we are clearly discussing sexual assault on this thread
Just wanted to clear up that I'm not Kevin
I think if you misread a signal you apologise and dont repeat it.
Sure - which is exactly what I said.
However you cannot just put your hand on a persons leg and see if they complain
Well no I agree, for example, you can't just touch the knee of the random stranger sitting next to you on the train, with whom you've had no verbal contact. That would be very wrong.
But say if you've been having an animated conversation with someone over dinner and you find yourself aware that there might be some flirting going on, a knowing look, a gaze held a little longer than normal, then perhaps a delicate knee touch might help you determine whether you've read the signals right or not.
At some point, one side has to touch the other otherwise the human race will die out.
If you do it in the workplace, when you are the person in power, then you really do need to be taken to task for this .
Tell that to my ex boss, she used to touch my knee all the time. I read it as affectionate and caring and just a little flirtatious. Sometimes it bothered me but only because it smacked of double standards.
My point is that the act is less problematic than the context in which its done, which is what your alluding to here, but the context is never as simple as 'manager/subordinate' or 'power/disenfranchised'. There's a lot more nuance to it than that.
<edit> I should also add that a lot of people really confuse the notion of 'power' in the work place as being simply the difference between super ordinate and sub ordinate. It really doesn't work that way. Most managers have zero 'power' over their direct reports.
that fact does not require that there must be confusion over consent.At some point, one side has to touch the other otherwise the human race will die out
if they have zero power then they are not your managerMost managers have zero 'power' over their direct reports
less power than you may think or not 100% power or whatever but not zero power.
Most managers have zero 'power' over their direct reports.
Really?
I regularly manage teams of free lancers and have a lot of say who comes on what job. As my industry is struggling at the moment, there are a lot of people looking for work.
I have the "power" to stop them getting regular work from my Company.
that fact does not require that there must be confusion over consent.
No I agree, and forgive me if I suggested otherwise. But it doesn't preclude a miunderstanding either.
if they have zero power then they are not your manager
The problem with this is that we could have a very interesting discussion about this; it's a very interesting subject and one I enjoy exploring, but we aren't going to do that through a forum.
I think probably the best we can do is recognise that 'power' and 'authority' or 'influence' are all quite different.
Managers have authority within a narrow context of work. They don't have power unless you want to equate authority with power.
less power than you may think or not 100% power or whatever but not zero power.
Yes I should have said 'far less power' than you might think. I agree. Apologies.
I regularly manage teams of free lancers and have a lot of say who comes on what job.
So this is a good example of influence rather than power.
So this is a good example of influence rather than power.
influence
[in-floo-uh ns]
Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others:
Again with the bullshitting.
😐
@tj you highlight one of the major issues, touching someone “outside their clothes and briefly” is sexual assault as is something much more serious.
In that case here are tens of thousands of assaults (sexual or otherwise) being committed right in front of Jeremy Corbyn and he did nothing to stop them:
[img] 
[/img]
Or did everyone in this crowd ask for consent from everyone they were standing next to?
^^ Mass frottaging !!
Managers have authority within a narrow context of work. They don't have power unless you want to equate authority with power.
Whilst i would love to do a pointless semantic dance with you about the exact meanings of synonyms I shall politely decline.
the reality is bosses do have power over you in the workplace and anyone who does not accept this is , as chakaping, explained is just BS
I have no idea why you said within a narrow context of work as if anyone was arguing our bosses could make us do things when not at work
Honestly if anyone wants to argue the subtle nuances of what does and doesn't constitute sexual assault, inter-office relationships, male female psychology and #allmenaremonsters then you could just bump any of the other threads.
To my mind it seems what Spacey did is much more akin to what priests did to alter boys. Based on his relationship with Bryan Singer, I fear this will just be the tip of the ice berg.
After you scrape away the thin veneer of what bean to cup machine and what four grand bike do I want lots of you are a bit batshit mental aint ya:)
the reality is bosses do have power over you in the workplace and anyone who does not accept this is , as chakaping, explained is just BS
OK - define 'power'.
Whilst i would love to do a pointless semantic dance with you about the exact meanings of synonyms I shall politely decline.
OK - define 'power'.
[i]power
noun
noun: power; plural noun: powers
1.
the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way.
"the power of speech"
synonyms: ability, capacity, capability, potential, potentiality, faculty, property, competence, competency
"my mother suffered a stroke and lost the power of speech"
antonyms: inability, incapacity
2.
the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behaviour of others or the course of events.[/i]
What bit are you struggling with?