[Closed] Kettling

Yeah I saw that letter in the Guardian this morning, and whilst part of me is appalled by the heavy-handed/violent police tactics and the use of kettling/temporary imprisonment, I am very aware just how counter-productive all that is. Because whilst it might in the short-term solve a "problem", long-term it is simply further radicalising students, school children, and very likely, their parents too. And also in this case, possibly even university professors.

So I struggle not to also feel a slight element of snug satisfaction. For far far too long imo, the British people have lacked any radical approach, preferring instead to meekly comply whilst they are being shafted. I reckon we are witnessing a fundamental change in that attitude. And it is to a great extent, thanks to this government of the very privileged, unprecedented assault on British society.

It's just a shame that many will see the police as part of the problem, they are not, even if coppers themselves don't realise it right now........the police will not be exempt.

Here here 😕

Just seen this on BBC. Made me pretty angry, could the interviewer have been any more of a cock?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11993680

^No. Interviewee ftw. Dealing with the types of people who may spit in your face and strike you with a weapon then okay the use of force is understandable but hauling that boy out his chair. FFS, not necessary, surely a bit of common sense on the Police's part would have been the call.

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/this-has-left-me-speechless

Just seen that clip edsbike, the guy was bloody brilliant. Quite unbelievable the questions he was being asked, "did you throw anything at the police" FFS. Any interviewer who thinks that was a sensible question, really needs to find another job.

Agreed, don't think he could have handled himself any better at all in the face of such idiotic questioning. Massive respect.

Choice quotes from poor little victims blog:

"People began running toward the far end of Parliament Square, and we followed."

"Eventually, around 30 of us managed to break our way through into the Treasury."

"However, we were out to ruin their plan. After shutting down an ITV reporter who tried to tell the country that “the police have begun to let people out”, a complete and utter lie, I was interviewed live by Sky News."

"All of a sudden, the bicycle burst out of the crowd, rushing through the pair of armed police guarding the private road of the Treasury. A group of 200 followed, including me in my wheelchair, and Finlay pushing at full speed."

"We continued down the sixty stone steps at the other end of the Treasury road without so much as a pause for breath. We were on the rampage."

" The crowd was swaying. “They’re smashing the windows…” Me and Finlay looked at each other. We knew that we had to make it to the front. "

"Two policemen blocking a tiny door were soon brushed aside, and around fifty of us forced our way through before they had a chance to re-seal the entrance. It was an epic mission to the top. Nine floors; eighteen flights of stairs. Two friends carried my wheelchair, and I walked. We couldn’t give up now."

🙄

Now, a quote from an independent photographer:

[i]
A series of shots taken during the afternoon of the latest student protest in London. The young man in the shots, Jody McIntyre claims he was assaulted by the police.
This claim relates to an event later in the evening, however, these shots show the way the police dealt with Mr McIntyre in the afternoon.
At the time these shots were taken the police were under a barrage of bricks, bottles and metal fence panels, as well as being involved in hand to hand fighting with the crowd.
Mr McIntyre was in the front row of the crowd and in a very precarious position, especially as he is wheelchair bound.
It was clear from my vantage point that the police moved him as gently as possible and in doing so the officers put themselves in personal danger from the hail of missiles.
Once he had been moved away from the front line to a safe distance, the officers sat him on a low level wall. Mr McIntyre got up and started arguing with an officer. [b]He was so wound up that he eventually tried to strike an officer and was only stopped from doing this due to the intervention of a female passer-by.[/b][/i]

stupid or not , the question needed to be asked imo.

The interviewer had clearly read his blog, which tells a different story to the one he's trying to put out, so was pushing him to answer questions on that.

The guys an arsehole, using his disability to further himself as a professional revolutionary.

Now, a quote from an independent photographer:

"Quote" ratty ? A [b]QUOTE[/b] ? We don't want a "quote".

He was a [u]photographer[/u] .......he must have had a [u]camera[/u]. We want [b]PICTURES[/b] !

Pictures of this guy launching his vicious attack against the police..........where are they ??????

Choice quotes from poor little victims blog:

Yeah what you fail to mention is that those "choice quotes" which you have so laboriously culled out of context, are from different incidences, on different days, on even different months [b]![/b]

Here is an unedited version from his blog of that incident :

It wasn’t long before my qualms were settled. People began running toward the far end of Parliament Square, and we followed. As we got to the front of the crowd, it was clear that the police were desperate for violence. This does not come as a surprise; of course, it is the job of the police to protect the government. Nothing is a bigger threat to the government than the scenes we saw on the last student march of November 30th; thousands of students spontaneously marching across central London, without permission from the police, and not an ounce of violence. So how do they combat that threat? They attack us.

When we reached the front, the batons began to fly. One came landing straight onto my left shoulder, sending a sharp, shooting pain down my arm. Others were taking blows to the head. Children, women, men, all being brutalised by the police. Then the horses came, horses that could easily kill people, but we would not budge. We held our ground.

Suddenly, four policemen grabbed my shoulders and pulled me out of my wheelchair. My friends and younger brother struggled to pull me back, but were beaten away with batons. The police carried me away. Around five minutes later, my younger brother was also forced through, the wheelchair still in his hands.

A crowd of around 200 had by now gathered on the other side of the police lines. We turned, and began marching, running, in the opposite direction. Morale was high. Anger at the government was even higher. Kicks and punches were thrown as we passed the Department of Education.

Eventually, we found ourselves back at Parliament Square, this time approaching from the side of the now-infamous Millbank. Riot police came charging our way, but now they looked weak. Mounted police were just behind, waiting to charge.

Somehow, me and Finlay managed to weave our way through the police line. We found ourselves in a large no-mans-land, in between the riot police trying to stop the crowd, and the police horses getting ready to charge. I turned in my wheelchair to face the police. “Move out of the way!” one of the mounted police shouted at me. I shook my head.

From the corner of my eye, I spotted one of the policemen from the earlier incident. He recognised me immediately. Officer KF936 came charging towards me. Tipping the wheelchair to the side, he pushed me onto the concrete, before grabbing my arms and dragging me across the road. The crowd of 200 ran and surrounded him. I got back up and stood in front of the horses.

When I finally got home at 5am, exhausted but pleased at what can only be seen as a victory, I found that the picture of me being pulled from my wheelchair had been creating a bit of a storm online. But I am not the real victim. The real victims of yesterday are people like Alfie Meadows; a 20 year-old student who was rushed to hospital for emergency brain surgery after internal bleeding caused by police truncheons.

We need a change, and we need it now.

The interviewer had clearly read his blog, which tells a different story

It doesn't tell a "different story". Read it.

It doesn't tell a "different story". Read it.

The story he's telling is of a poor innocent disabled man unable to move by himself was viciously attacked out of the blue by a police officer on two occasions.

His blog says he was obstructing police and is capable of climbing 18 flights of stairs unaided?

"Quote" ratty ? A QUOTE ? We don't want a "quote".

He was a photographer .......he must have had a camera. We want PICTURES !

Pictures of this guy launching his vicious attack against the police..........where are they ??????

[img] [/img]

Pictures of this guy launching his vicious attack against the police..........where are they ??????

Good point actually. Where are the pictures of this man 'viciously attacking police'?

'Ve vas only following orders....'

Yeah you've posted a picture of an extremely relaxed looking copper standing in front of a man with cerebral palsy.......what's your point Andituk ?

I asked for [i]"pictures of this guy launching his vicious attack"[/i].

So where are they ?

Or are you suggesting [b][i]that[/i][/b] is it?

BTW, have you noticed that another copper has casually got his back to the whole "vicious" incident ? .......he doesn't seem much bothered does he ?

Come on, this was apparently a professional photographer, I want at least pictures of him throwing stuff at the police. And you say that the [i]"interviewer had clearly read his blog, which tells a different story"[/i] So where in his blog does he say he was 'throwing things at the police' ?

If you want smear someone, I suggest you produce some evidence 💡

Ernie, have you seen this:

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11991987 ]The Tory cuts are the deepest.[/url]

Doesn't really surprise me tbh.

Where did I say it said that?

There's two photographs of the man with his arm raised and a witness account saying he had to be restrained from hitting a police officer. What evidence would you like? There's no pictures of him throwing anything but nobody said he did?

Your mind seems to be made up, but to me there's plenty to show he's not telling the whole truth. He's twisting the story and using his disability to further his cause, but then what else would you expect from a self proclaimed revolutionary who's compared the events to Tiananmen Square.

Oh come on; you've seen the geezer interviewed on TV. Do you honestly think he is capable of launching a 'vicious attack' on a fit, able-bodied armoured riot copper?

Your denouncement of him betrays your own prejudiced agenda.

Vicious? Only Ernie used that word. There's evidence that he took a swing at a cop though.

He admits himself that he was being obstructive and that he's capable of climbing 18 flights of stairs, neither of which was the impression he was giving in his interview.

I'm not sure what agenda you think I have, I just think he's making out as if he was completely innocent and was picked on because of his disability, which I don't believe is true.

I just think he's making out as if he was completely innocent and was picked on because of his disability

I don't think he's saying that at all. His disability is an issue, in relation to the level of force the police used. You seem to be suggesting, because the guy claimed he walked up the stairs of Millbank Tower, that he isn't actually disabled?

I'm not sure what agenda you think I have

OK:

but then what else would you expect from a self proclaimed revolutionary

I'm not really sure what to expect form a self-proclaimed revolutionary, actually. Please, as you seem such an authority on such things, please enlighten me.

I'll read it in't morning. If I remember that is. Nighty night.

I've not suggested anything of the kind. If I didn't believe he was disabled, why would I have specifically mentioned it? I believe he's using his disability to further his own cause, as I said.

My point about the stairs is that he makes out as if he is defenceless and unable to move himself, when that's clearly not the case.

My opinion is that he's twisting the story and not telling the full facts.

That's my opinion, you don't have to agree, I've never claimed to be an expert, I'm not trying to smear anyone and I don't have any agenda, I just dislike the way he's gone about this whole incident.

Elfinsafety - Member

'Ve vas only following orders....'

I believe, in internet terms, you lose. Any further comment from you is null and void on this topic.

All I want to know is what Tyres on that wheel chair for such awesome climbing ability?

'Ve vas only following orders....'

I do hope you're not making a predudiced and racist slight on the German people there 😉

Walking up 18 flights of stairs when you're wheelchair bound ? Awesomeness 🙂

Perhaps he doth protest too much 🙂

I just feel reassured that there are still some police officers working to protect us from such vicious thugs like Jody McIntyre.
In the past I've been lucky enough to witness a similarly like-minded police officers protect us from an old man by repeatedly hitting him over the head,shoulders and stomach with a baton while he peacefully tried to move away from a police line, 5 policemen protect us from a lady lying on the ground by repeatedly kicking her instead of restraining her. Unfortunately I have also seen a policeman attack someone in a wheel chair (though I didn't see why so maybe that was justified).
I thought that behaviour was a thing of the past.
After experiencing first hand,the unnecessary thuggery of some police officers towards passive protesters, my heart sank hearing some of the reports from some of the protesters and official police spokes people.

Some of the real victims in situations like this are the decent police officers who are genuinely trying to improve and help people and society. It would appear they have been given yet another backward step because of some vulgar thugs in uniform.

Andituk, regardless how you feel about people with disabilities, do you honestly think that the officers involved in hitting the chap in his wheel chair and dragging him along the road acted in the best way possible? They had no other option in dealing with the incident?

Some of the real victims in situations like this are the decent police officers who are genuinely trying to improve and help people and society. It would appear they have been given yet another backward step because of some vulgar thugs in uniform.

Some other real victims are the peaceful protesters who had their demonstration hijacked by subversives, fringe groups and idiots who got swept up by the mob mentality (many arrested had no previous).

The guys an arsehole, using his disability to further himself as a professional revolutionary.

+1 😕

There's two photographs of the man with his arm raised and a witness account saying he had to be restrained from hitting a police officer. What evidence would you like?

Well not evidence of a guy with cerebral palsy remonstrating with a police officer. I was hoping of a picture of the guy attempting to assault an officer. After all, we are told that there was a professional photographer with a camera witnessing the whole event.

What you have posted clearly does not show that - there is no evidence of the copper taking any evasive or defensive action, he is in fact clearly relaxed. Or are you going to suggest that the guy with cerebral palsy was simply too fast for the copper and he didn't have time to react ?

And why wasn't he arrested for his riotous behaviour and attempting to assault a police officer ........again, was he a bit too quick and managed to escape ?

He admits himself that he was being obstructive and that he's capable of climbing 18 flights of stairs, neither of which was the impression he was giving in his interview.

Are you pretending to be stupid, or have you really never seen anyone with cerebral palsy before ? The "impression" I got when he was giving in his interview was "there is a man with cerebral palsy". I had no reason to believe that he couldn't walk, talk, or even throw something if he put his mind to it.

Have you seen someone with cerebral palsy walk ? It appears a torturous excise which is both slow and very badly coordinated. They can talk too, although again, it appears to be with great difficult. And yes, I'm sure that if they put their mind to it they can throw something as well, although I would be very surprised if it even remotely went near its intended target or travelled much more than a few inches.

The suggestion that someone with cerebral palsy could pose a threat to a fully kitted and armed riot police is utterly ludicrous. And anyone one notch above being an idiot, realises that.

a professional revolutionary..........a self proclaimed revolutionary

You seem to believe that being a "revolutionary" is sufficient grounds for the police to assault someone (irrespective of whether or not they are disabled) what sort of country do you actually think you live in Andituk ? Maybe the analogy with Tiananmen Square isn't a bad one after all eh ?

A witness says he had to be held back by a female as he attempted to strike an officer, pictures accompanying the witness's claims show him with his arm raised in front of a police officer being held by a female. If you choose not to believe that statement, then thats your choice. Why is the police officer standing so calmly? Perhaps because he's being held back by the female, perhaps because he doesn't think he's going to come to any harm, perhaps because he's in full protective equipment, make your own mind up, it seems you already have.

I've never said anyone was a threat, I've never justified anyone assaulting anyone else. I said I believe he is twisting his story, not telling the full truth and making out as if he was a defenceless victim, which there is plenty to suggest he isn't as defenceless or innocent as he makes out.

I find the way he uses his disability when he claims to see himself as an equal offensive.

If he was fully able, well bodied person in full fitness, and the police moved him out of the way when he tried to obstuct them, would he be in the news? No.

He's obviously an intelligent person doing all he can to get air time for what he sees as a revolution, fighting against some oppresive regime. Unlike Tiananmen Square, there were no tanks in westminster, no soldiers, and no one was killed.

Hey look, I managed to reply without calling you stupid or an idiot 😉

f he was fully able, well bodied person in full fitness, and the police moved him out of the way when he tried to obstuct them, would he be in the news? No.

It all depends on if the force is reasonable but clearly a disabled person is better able to get on the news. Plenty of film clips of other people being detained and hit but the more vulnerable the person the better the news value. He used this to his advantage.

reasonable force to some extent depends on the threat. If a 18 stone body-builder comes at you its reasonable to do almost anything. if a 6 stone little old lady swings her handbag reasonable force is clearly much less

The only point of contention here is was the force the officers used reasonable in the circumstances? They clearly were entitled to use reasonable force to remove him. However I do not believe that knocking him out of his wheelchair and dragging him across the road is reasonable. He could have been safely removed with much less force.

The suggestion that someone with cerebral palsy could pose a threat to a fully kitted and armed riot police is utterly ludicrous. And anyone one notch above being an idiot, realises that.

Depends what you call a threat Ernie. Obviously he's not going to do a Bruce Lee impersonation (not intentionally anyway) but there is a chance he could potentially throw a decent punch. Why should a copper doing his job risk injury?

TJ
I'm a bit disappointed that you can make such an unequivocal statement without actually being there and having full knowledge of the circumstances!

unequivocal? Just my belief that it was unreasonable - clearly my only info is what is in the public domain.

I thought I outlined the point of debate fairly then gave my opinion.

Some of the real victims in situations like this are the decent police officers who are genuinely trying to improve and help people and society. It would appear they have been given yet another backward step because of some vulgar thugs in uniform.

If you were objective, you could substitute students and protestors for rozzers in that sentence.

Neither side has the moral high ground; there were thugs on both sides happy to have a ruck and cobblers to the reason they were there.

He could have been safely removed with much less force.

I find the way he uses his disability when he claims to see himself as an equal offensive.

I can't see he's done that at all. Why don't you watch the full interview ?

And the analogy with Tiananmen Square is perfectly reasonable, because according to you, just the fact that he is supposedly a "revolutionary" makes him a legitimate target. Whether he supports the system, or wants it replaced, is utterly irrelevant.

Hey look, I managed to reply without calling you stupid or an idiot

But you apparently couldn't give an opinion without calling the guy an "arsehole". It was on those grounds, that I reserved the right to ask you whether you were "pretending to be stupid". A question which incidentally, you still haven't answered.

Woody - thats my opinion. I am trained in control and restraint ( but obviously in a different way to cops)

Reasonable force can be considerable even injurious. I just think from what I have seen that was not reasonable in this case. My opinion. Others may have different opinions. Ultimately a jury will decide

He had to be held back by a female?

You mean the old granny holding his arm, who looks like she is holding him up as much as back?!

What a threat he must pose... 😆

I have watched the full interview, its quite long, he uses the air time given to him because he's disabled and apparently an innocent victim to promote his political cause. I don't believe an able bodied person would have had that opportunity.

I've never once said he was a legitimate target, I've never once mentioned justification, I've never once mentioned anything of the sort.

I've said, and I'll say it again, that it is my opinion that he is twisting his story, and not being fully truthful in order to further his political cause. I stand by my opinion that he as an arsehole for doing so.

Am I pretending to be stupid? No, I'm claiming to have an opinion on a matter.

With respect, while you may be trained in control and restraint within a relatively controlled environment, the scenario presented on the video footage is rather different and presents a host of other considerations, which for me at least would prevent me from offering an 'opinion' or reaching conclusions which are not substantiable.

It's unlikely a jury will decide, as the incident has served its purpose.

And when it comes down to it; disabled or no, in the spirit of true equality; he might have been such a cockweasel he needed a belt on the noggin.

Woody

TandemJeremy ............. I am trained in control and restraint ([b] but obviously in a different way to cops[/b])

I don't disagree with you - and you give your opinion on what the guy is capable of as well.

I have also worked alongside cops detaining violent drunks. its not a totally uniformed opinion that I have made but as I stated several times it is only an opinion based on the info in the public domain

Surely the police dragging him along the ground demonstrates a refreshingly inclusive attitude to disability by the Met?

I've never once said he was a legitimate target, I've never once mentioned justification, I've never once mentioned anything of the sort.

On several occasions you have claimed that he is a "revolutionary". It is very clear that you think this is somehow relevant to the way his was treated by the police.

Or do you normally mean the complete opposite to what you are suggesting ?

I stand by my opinion that he as an arsehole .........

Yeah I got that, but you appear to have a problem with [i][b]my[/i][/b] opinion that [b][i]you[/i][/b] are an arsehole. Why's that?

Surely the police dragging him along the ground demonstrates a refreshingly inclusive attitude to disability by the Met?

Very true 😀

Wheelchair bound

Sorry to get all PC on people on singletrack but he is a wheelchair user.

Because someone uses a wheelchair does not make them bound to it. Being bound has negative connotations therefore should not be used. Especially in this case where he obviously has some mobility.

Personally in this case I also think the media and him are making the most of it because he has cerebral palsy. It happened to loads of people and there was probably worse unprovoked attacks during the riots. I can understand why he is because it furthers the "cause" but others?

This is all part of societies attitude to disabled people that riles me. They don't need wrapping up in cotton wool all the time.

(this from life experience, brother with cerebral palsy and many years working voluntary in the sector)

Again, I've never mentioned how he was treated by police. The fact he claims to be a revolutionary is relevant to how I see his actions, no one elses.

You can think I'm whatever you like, I can think you are whatever I like, its largely irrelevent as I wouldn't sink to name calling for having a different opinion to me, you're have as much right to your opinion as I have. My problem is that you continue to suggest I hold an opinion which I don't.

I will say again, my opinion is of the way he has behaved and his actions to promote his political cause. I don't think he is a justified target, I don't think anyone is a justified target.

It happened to loads of people and there was probably worse unprovoked attacks during the riots.

If you watch the interview you will see that he makes [i]precisely[/i] that point. He says that he was not a "real victim".

If you watch the interview you will that he makes precisely that point. He says that he was not a "real victim".

Step down Ernie, I agree with you and I think he was right what he said about Alfie Meadows and others on the interview.

I just think this is being blown out of proportion.

I wouldn't sink to name calling for having a different opinion to me

I am simply expressing [i]exactly[/i] the same opinion of you, as you expressed of someone else ......where's the problem ? 😕

There is no problem, like I said in the bit of the quote you cut off, you can think what you like, I just don't feel the need to name call because someone doesn't agree with me on a mountain bike forum.

There is no problem

So why did you mention it then ? I certainly wouldn't have, if it hadn't bothered me

No, wait........."[i]I just don't feel the need to name call[/i]". So it does bother you after all then ?

Well I certainly didn't intend to upset, or in any way cause you offence, by calling you an arsehole. I had just automatically assumed that you didn't have a problem with the term, since you yourself, had called someone an arsehole. I can see now though, that you find it an unacceptable term to call someone, so please accept my apologies.

So you are a hypocrite as well as an arsehole then ?

ernie_lynch - you just made me laugh.

So why did you mention it then ? I certainly wouldn't have, if it hadn't bothered me

You asked me a question which I answered 😕

Yeah I got that, but you appear to have a problem with my opinion that you are an arsehole. Why's that?

Again, you can call me what you like, I don't feel the need to call you anything just because you disagree with me. Its nice that you didn't mean to offend me, it warms me to my core to know that.

No I'm not a hyprocite, I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but you can think I am whatever you like, you can call me whatever you like. If you want to call me an arsehole, fine, but you brought it up. I never mentioned what I think of you or what you think of me, you told me.

but you brought it up

Nah, you brought up this whole 'name calling' issue........why would I have brought it up ?

I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but you can think I am whatever you like

No, I don't think you had mentioned it. But thanks anyway ..... it's nice to know that you don't mind.

Be quiet the pair of you. Pair of silly arguists.

[url= http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hK97JtRIOOeKUxESqXRLSeUDBTJw?docId=B39208111292330372A000 ]The Kettling tactic is to be challenged in the High Court.[/url]

Efinsaftey The Police done the same tatics two weeks back. My Daughter 16 years of age was in London protesting and she says all of a sudden the students was stopped and then the police wheelled out portable toilets and then barrackeded them in for 6 hrs and when daughter kept
asking how long the Police kept saying soon
Would'nt mind on the news the police was saying this was to take ID of people there But when daughter came home she said the
police just let everyone go without taking any details.

So yes all Kettling is pre planned, plus they was firing this halon
in peoples faces and I found this link to Halon extinguishers!
Makes intresting reading two pages down on what effects it could do to people.

[url= http://www.kiddefiresystems.com/utcfs/ws-383/Assets/MSDS_Halon_1211.pdf ][/url]

Please read

i was kettled in 1st 1 in oxford st many yrs ago,was filming,after 3-4hrs i had 2 nearly push copper over 2 get out. its not nice,having 2 pee were u can

TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION

Acute Toxicity
Low order of acute toxicity expected.
Chronic Toxicity/Carcinogenicity
This product is not expected to cause long term adverse health effects.
Genotoxicity
This product is not expected to cause any mutagenic effects.
Reproductive/Developmental Toxicity
This product is not expected to cause adverse reproductive effects.

So, basically, the biggest threat from the fire extinguisher is "stop rioting, or we'll destroy the ozone layer, mwahahahahahahah!"

Low order of acute toxicity expected.

Ratty, you emphatically said yesterday, that those fire extinguishers contained no toxic gases at all in them. It is clear from your post now, that they are in fact toxic, ie, they cause toxicity.

I [i]had thought[/i] that you [i]actually knew[/i] what you were talking about. I feel very disappointed now.
And not least may I add, because it is so extremely rare that I ever believe anything you say 😐

Ernie, you clearly don't understand what "low order of acute toxicity means" do you!

I would suggest you don't even know what "acute toxicity" means.

Think of it this way - Vaseline has a "low order of acute toxicity" - and you don't seem to be afraid of using that do you big boy 😉

How much force is needed, I wonder, to stop a man with cerebral palsy who keeps rolling, even when asked to stop? Presumably the police turned to each other in shock, spluttering: "Oh my God, he's rolling straight for us. These riot shields and helmets with visors offer woefully inadequate protection against such a persistent rolling machine. If we're lucky our batons can buy us some time, but his momentum is terrifying, it's like a cerebral palsy tsunami."

12 police injured and 40 protesters (kids mostly), one of the protesters is having brain surgery as we speak, imagine that? Go to a demo, come out with brain damage. Imagine for a moment the outcry from the likes of the Mail and Express if that had been a copper, oh no, hang on, they all had helmets on....

if that had been a copper, oh no, hang on, they all had helmets on....

Oh and some of those 'kids' looked fairly well developed to me so don't try and pretend that they were all little darlings and victims of police brutality 🙄

I would suggest you don't even know what "acute toxicity" means.

Well I've just looked it up and it appears to mean exactly what I thought it meant :

[i]acute toxicity, the harmful effect of a toxic agent that manifests itself in seconds, minutes, hours, or days after entering the patient.[/i]

Note : [b]"a toxic agent"[/b]

And as for your "TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION" you posted, that presumably refers to "expected toxicity" when the product is used for its intended purpose. Not when it is sprayed into someone's face.

If you read the bit which you have conveniently ignored from grantways link, you will see that under "Exposure to vapours in high concentrations" it lists, among other things, difficulty in breathing, mental confusion, loss of consciousness, cardiac effects. Hardly a "harmless substance" to use on school children then.

Why do you bother arguing with him Ernie? His whole raison d'etre is just to argue with folk on here; spose it might give him a sense of satisfaction, satisfies the craving for attention. Labby's modus operandi is similar to a disruptive child; behave in a contradictory manner always, because it knows no other way of gaining that attention. When have you ever seen Labby just post happy fun non-argumentative stuff, eh? Only ever pops up on threads where he can take sides in order to demonstrate that right wing persona he seems so proud of. Just boring, ultimately. There's no 'winning' an argument with him; even when he's wrong (as is quite often the case really), he'll bang on and bang on until everyone else gets fed up, then he can claim the 'victory'.

Just agree with him, tell him he's right, and then ignore him. For your own sake. It's simpler.

Helmets? Did someone mention helmets?

I'd be more interested in discussing the kettling legal challenge tbh TJ. Will be interested to see if decent lawyers can do anything to force the police to change their tactics in future.

Only ever pops up on threads where he can take sides in order to demonstrate that [s]right[/s] [b]left[/b] wing persona he seems so proud of. Just boring, ultimately. There's no 'winning' an argument with him; even when he's wrong (as is quite often the case really), he'll bang on and bang on until everyone else gets fed up, then he can claim the 'victory'.

Just agree with him, tell him he's right, and then ignore him. For your own sake. It's simpler.

Can anyone see what I did there? 🙄

'Ve vas only following orders....'

Not as off the mark as you might have intended.

Kettling is an anglicisation of a practice developed by the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessel_(cauldron) ] Kessel[/url]In German the word Kessel (literally a cauldron) is commonly used to refer to an encircled military force, and a Kesselschlacht (cauldron battle) refers to a pincer movement. The common tactic which would leave a Kessel is referred to Keil and Kessel (Keil means wedge). The term is sometimes borrowed for use in English texts about World War II. Another use of Kessel is to refer to Kessel fever, the panic and hopelessness felt by any troops who were surrounded with little or no chance of escape

Uh-oh. Here's another one... 🙄

Very clever, TooTall. Very clever. Give yourself a sweetie for being such a clever boy.

Just the one mind; you don't want to spoil your appetite this close to supper.

[img] [/img]

According to Zulu it was practised long before the Wehrmacht
[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/blooming-stoodent-thugs/page/2#post-2056311 ]HERE[/url]

TooTall - Member

Can anyone see what I did there?

Yes I saw what you did there.

What does it mean ?

What does it mean ?

...................sorry, what was the question again?

Ernie:

If you read the bit which you have conveniently ignored from grantways link, you will see that under "Exposure to vapours in high concentrations" it lists, among other things, difficulty in breathing, mental confusion, loss of consciousness, cardiac effects. Hardly a "harmless substance" to use on school children then.

The same would apply to Nitrogen or Oxygen in high concentrations, however we breath limited concentrations of both of those gases all day every day - would you call Nitrogen or Oxygen dangerous toxic substances that should not be used near children?

AS for your point regards "sprayed into someone's face" - can you produce any evidence of that, as the comments on here make allegations but the photo shows it being sprayed into the air!

Tootall, I'm an admirer of your work 😉

What does it mean ?

I haven't got the time or the inclination old fella. 😐

plus they was firing this halon in peoples faces

Any evidence of that? I have seen a pic of one being discharged over a head.

The same would apply to Nitrogen or Oxygen in high concentrations

Probably not a good idea to use nitrogen or oxygen in high concentrations either then 💡

Ratty, you do realise you are arguing that spraying these fire extinguishers at kids doesn't have a negative effect on them don't you ?

Clearly it does, clearly it has an incapacitating effect, otherwise the coppers wouldn't use them. And if these toxic gases were an acceptable tool to use on kids, then they would be properly provided, with a proper means of dispensing, to police officers - they would not have to drag around fire extinguishers with them.

Most reasonable persons would not think that coppers using toxic chemicals for purposes which they are not intended for, in an uncontrolled manner, in uncontrolled doses, against kids, as a matter of routine, is both right and acceptable. Even the police authorities agree with that.

But as usual ratty, you have allowed your extreme right-wing reactionary views, get in the way of common-sense. So no change there then.

plus they was firing this halon in peoples faces

[b]"Any evidence of that?"[/b]

Yeah his daughter apparently.

Clearly it does, clearly it has an incapacitating effect, otherwise the coppers wouldn't use them

Really, can you back up any claim that it is either

i) an incapacitant
ii) being used as such by the police?

Or are you just making it up?

Now, the diversionary and shock effect of discharging a canister of harmless gas near a violent protester, might well be an effective use, and if used as an alternative to hitting someone with a stick, as a minimum use of force, then their use would be perfectly reasonable and proportionate...

Still, despite being unable to point me towards any harmful effect of the possible inhalation of a small concentration of an inert gas in an open air unrestricted environment, I'm sure you'll crack on with claims that the stuff is akin to using chemical weapons on kids, tell you what, maybe thats what Saddam had, Tony and George have found the missing WMD's in small green canisters hidden in a police station 🙄

clearly it has an incapacitating effect

Not outside a confined space. It scares and disorientates, as a CO2 extinguisher would. Police carry halon because it is the most effective at putting out fires like petrol on clothing.

Really, can you back up any claim that it is either

i) an incapacitant
ii) being used as such by the police?

Incapacitating = To deprive of strength or ability; disable.

I'm assuming coppers aren't using them because they smell nice.

If there was no evidence that coppers were using them, then you certainly wouldn't be putting so much effort arguing how harmless they are.

I'm getting slightly bored now btw.