[Closed] Kettling

Surely the police dragging him along the ground demonstrates a refreshingly inclusive attitude to disability by the Met?

Very true 😀

Wheelchair bound

Sorry to get all PC on people on singletrack but he is a wheelchair user.

Because someone uses a wheelchair does not make them bound to it. Being bound has negative connotations therefore should not be used. Especially in this case where he obviously has some mobility.

Personally in this case I also think the media and him are making the most of it because he has cerebral palsy. It happened to loads of people and there was probably worse unprovoked attacks during the riots. I can understand why he is because it furthers the "cause" but others?

This is all part of societies attitude to disabled people that riles me. They don't need wrapping up in cotton wool all the time.

(this from life experience, brother with cerebral palsy and many years working voluntary in the sector)

Again, I've never mentioned how he was treated by police. The fact he claims to be a revolutionary is relevant to how I see his actions, no one elses.

You can think I'm whatever you like, I can think you are whatever I like, its largely irrelevent as I wouldn't sink to name calling for having a different opinion to me, you're have as much right to your opinion as I have. My problem is that you continue to suggest I hold an opinion which I don't.

I will say again, my opinion is of the way he has behaved and his actions to promote his political cause. I don't think he is a justified target, I don't think anyone is a justified target.

It happened to loads of people and there was probably worse unprovoked attacks during the riots.

If you watch the interview you will see that he makes [i]precisely[/i] that point. He says that he was not a "real victim".

If you watch the interview you will that he makes precisely that point. He says that he was not a "real victim".

Step down Ernie, I agree with you and I think he was right what he said about Alfie Meadows and others on the interview.

I just think this is being blown out of proportion.

I wouldn't sink to name calling for having a different opinion to me

I am simply expressing [i]exactly[/i] the same opinion of you, as you expressed of someone else ......where's the problem ? 😕

There is no problem, like I said in the bit of the quote you cut off, you can think what you like, I just don't feel the need to name call because someone doesn't agree with me on a mountain bike forum.

There is no problem

So why did you mention it then ? I certainly wouldn't have, if it hadn't bothered me

No, wait........."[i]I just don't feel the need to name call[/i]". So it does bother you after all then ?

Well I certainly didn't intend to upset, or in any way cause you offence, by calling you an arsehole. I had just automatically assumed that you didn't have a problem with the term, since you yourself, had called someone an arsehole. I can see now though, that you find it an unacceptable term to call someone, so please accept my apologies.

So you are a hypocrite as well as an arsehole then ?

ernie_lynch - you just made me laugh.

So why did you mention it then ? I certainly wouldn't have, if it hadn't bothered me

You asked me a question which I answered 😕

Yeah I got that, but you appear to have a problem with my opinion that you are an arsehole. Why's that?

Again, you can call me what you like, I don't feel the need to call you anything just because you disagree with me. Its nice that you didn't mean to offend me, it warms me to my core to know that.

No I'm not a hyprocite, I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but you can think I am whatever you like, you can call me whatever you like. If you want to call me an arsehole, fine, but you brought it up. I never mentioned what I think of you or what you think of me, you told me.

but you brought it up

Nah, you brought up this whole 'name calling' issue........why would I have brought it up ?

I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but you can think I am whatever you like

No, I don't think you had mentioned it. But thanks anyway ..... it's nice to know that you don't mind.

Be quiet the pair of you. Pair of silly arguists.

[url= http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hK97JtRIOOeKUxESqXRLSeUDBTJw?docId=B39208111292330372A000 ]The Kettling tactic is to be challenged in the High Court.[/url]

Efinsaftey The Police done the same tatics two weeks back. My Daughter 16 years of age was in London protesting and she says all of a sudden the students was stopped and then the police wheelled out portable toilets and then barrackeded them in for 6 hrs and when daughter kept
asking how long the Police kept saying soon
Would'nt mind on the news the police was saying this was to take ID of people there But when daughter came home she said the
police just let everyone go without taking any details.

So yes all Kettling is pre planned, plus they was firing this halon
in peoples faces and I found this link to Halon extinguishers!
Makes intresting reading two pages down on what effects it could do to people.

[url= http://www.kiddefiresystems.com/utcfs/ws-383/Assets/MSDS_Halon_1211.pdf ][/url]

Please read

i was kettled in 1st 1 in oxford st many yrs ago,was filming,after 3-4hrs i had 2 nearly push copper over 2 get out. its not nice,having 2 pee were u can

TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION

Acute Toxicity
Low order of acute toxicity expected.
Chronic Toxicity/Carcinogenicity
This product is not expected to cause long term adverse health effects.
Genotoxicity
This product is not expected to cause any mutagenic effects.
Reproductive/Developmental Toxicity
This product is not expected to cause adverse reproductive effects.

So, basically, the biggest threat from the fire extinguisher is "stop rioting, or we'll destroy the ozone layer, mwahahahahahahah!"

Low order of acute toxicity expected.

Ratty, you emphatically said yesterday, that those fire extinguishers contained no toxic gases at all in them. It is clear from your post now, that they are in fact toxic, ie, they cause toxicity.

I [i]had thought[/i] that you [i]actually knew[/i] what you were talking about. I feel very disappointed now.
And not least may I add, because it is so extremely rare that I ever believe anything you say 😐

Ernie, you clearly don't understand what "low order of acute toxicity means" do you!

I would suggest you don't even know what "acute toxicity" means.

Think of it this way - Vaseline has a "low order of acute toxicity" - and you don't seem to be afraid of using that do you big boy 😉

How much force is needed, I wonder, to stop a man with cerebral palsy who keeps rolling, even when asked to stop? Presumably the police turned to each other in shock, spluttering: "Oh my God, he's rolling straight for us. These riot shields and helmets with visors offer woefully inadequate protection against such a persistent rolling machine. If we're lucky our batons can buy us some time, but his momentum is terrifying, it's like a cerebral palsy tsunami."

12 police injured and 40 protesters (kids mostly), one of the protesters is having brain surgery as we speak, imagine that? Go to a demo, come out with brain damage. Imagine for a moment the outcry from the likes of the Mail and Express if that had been a copper, oh no, hang on, they all had helmets on....

if that had been a copper, oh no, hang on, they all had helmets on....

Oh and some of those 'kids' looked fairly well developed to me so don't try and pretend that they were all little darlings and victims of police brutality 🙄

I would suggest you don't even know what "acute toxicity" means.

Well I've just looked it up and it appears to mean exactly what I thought it meant :

[i]acute toxicity, the harmful effect of a toxic agent that manifests itself in seconds, minutes, hours, or days after entering the patient.[/i]

Note : [b]"a toxic agent"[/b]

And as for your "TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION" you posted, that presumably refers to "expected toxicity" when the product is used for its intended purpose. Not when it is sprayed into someone's face.

If you read the bit which you have conveniently ignored from grantways link, you will see that under "Exposure to vapours in high concentrations" it lists, among other things, difficulty in breathing, mental confusion, loss of consciousness, cardiac effects. Hardly a "harmless substance" to use on school children then.

Why do you bother arguing with him Ernie? His whole raison d'etre is just to argue with folk on here; spose it might give him a sense of satisfaction, satisfies the craving for attention. Labby's modus operandi is similar to a disruptive child; behave in a contradictory manner always, because it knows no other way of gaining that attention. When have you ever seen Labby just post happy fun non-argumentative stuff, eh? Only ever pops up on threads where he can take sides in order to demonstrate that right wing persona he seems so proud of. Just boring, ultimately. There's no 'winning' an argument with him; even when he's wrong (as is quite often the case really), he'll bang on and bang on until everyone else gets fed up, then he can claim the 'victory'.

Just agree with him, tell him he's right, and then ignore him. For your own sake. It's simpler.

Helmets? Did someone mention helmets?

I'd be more interested in discussing the kettling legal challenge tbh TJ. Will be interested to see if decent lawyers can do anything to force the police to change their tactics in future.

Only ever pops up on threads where he can take sides in order to demonstrate that [s]right[/s] [b]left[/b] wing persona he seems so proud of. Just boring, ultimately. There's no 'winning' an argument with him; even when he's wrong (as is quite often the case really), he'll bang on and bang on until everyone else gets fed up, then he can claim the 'victory'.

Just agree with him, tell him he's right, and then ignore him. For your own sake. It's simpler.

Can anyone see what I did there? 🙄

'Ve vas only following orders....'

Not as off the mark as you might have intended.

Kettling is an anglicisation of a practice developed by the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessel_(cauldron) ] Kessel[/url]In German the word Kessel (literally a cauldron) is commonly used to refer to an encircled military force, and a Kesselschlacht (cauldron battle) refers to a pincer movement. The common tactic which would leave a Kessel is referred to Keil and Kessel (Keil means wedge). The term is sometimes borrowed for use in English texts about World War II. Another use of Kessel is to refer to Kessel fever, the panic and hopelessness felt by any troops who were surrounded with little or no chance of escape

Uh-oh. Here's another one... 🙄

Very clever, TooTall. Very clever. Give yourself a sweetie for being such a clever boy.

Just the one mind; you don't want to spoil your appetite this close to supper.

[img] [/img]

According to Zulu it was practised long before the Wehrmacht
[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/blooming-stoodent-thugs/page/2#post-2056311 ]HERE[/url]

TooTall - Member

Can anyone see what I did there?

Yes I saw what you did there.

What does it mean ?

What does it mean ?

...................sorry, what was the question again?

Ernie:

If you read the bit which you have conveniently ignored from grantways link, you will see that under "Exposure to vapours in high concentrations" it lists, among other things, difficulty in breathing, mental confusion, loss of consciousness, cardiac effects. Hardly a "harmless substance" to use on school children then.

The same would apply to Nitrogen or Oxygen in high concentrations, however we breath limited concentrations of both of those gases all day every day - would you call Nitrogen or Oxygen dangerous toxic substances that should not be used near children?

AS for your point regards "sprayed into someone's face" - can you produce any evidence of that, as the comments on here make allegations but the photo shows it being sprayed into the air!

Tootall, I'm an admirer of your work 😉

What does it mean ?

I haven't got the time or the inclination old fella. 😐

plus they was firing this halon in peoples faces

Any evidence of that? I have seen a pic of one being discharged over a head.

The same would apply to Nitrogen or Oxygen in high concentrations

Probably not a good idea to use nitrogen or oxygen in high concentrations either then 💡

Ratty, you do realise you are arguing that spraying these fire extinguishers at kids doesn't have a negative effect on them don't you ?

Clearly it does, clearly it has an incapacitating effect, otherwise the coppers wouldn't use them. And if these toxic gases were an acceptable tool to use on kids, then they would be properly provided, with a proper means of dispensing, to police officers - they would not have to drag around fire extinguishers with them.

Most reasonable persons would not think that coppers using toxic chemicals for purposes which they are not intended for, in an uncontrolled manner, in uncontrolled doses, against kids, as a matter of routine, is both right and acceptable. Even the police authorities agree with that.

But as usual ratty, you have allowed your extreme right-wing reactionary views, get in the way of common-sense. So no change there then.

plus they was firing this halon in peoples faces

[b]"Any evidence of that?"[/b]

Yeah his daughter apparently.

Clearly it does, clearly it has an incapacitating effect, otherwise the coppers wouldn't use them

Really, can you back up any claim that it is either

i) an incapacitant
ii) being used as such by the police?

Or are you just making it up?

Now, the diversionary and shock effect of discharging a canister of harmless gas near a violent protester, might well be an effective use, and if used as an alternative to hitting someone with a stick, as a minimum use of force, then their use would be perfectly reasonable and proportionate...

Still, despite being unable to point me towards any harmful effect of the possible inhalation of a small concentration of an inert gas in an open air unrestricted environment, I'm sure you'll crack on with claims that the stuff is akin to using chemical weapons on kids, tell you what, maybe thats what Saddam had, Tony and George have found the missing WMD's in small green canisters hidden in a police station 🙄

clearly it has an incapacitating effect

Not outside a confined space. It scares and disorientates, as a CO2 extinguisher would. Police carry halon because it is the most effective at putting out fires like petrol on clothing.

Really, can you back up any claim that it is either

i) an incapacitant
ii) being used as such by the police?

Incapacitating = To deprive of strength or ability; disable.

I'm assuming coppers aren't using them because they smell nice.

If there was no evidence that coppers were using them, then you certainly wouldn't be putting so much effort arguing how harmless they are.

I'm getting slightly bored now btw.

To avoid Kettling you need ...

1. The Tortoise - The 'testudo'
[img] [/img]

The tortoise formation was one of the prime examples of Roman ingenuity at warfare. When deployed in such a way, the legionaries became virtually invulnerable to arrows or objects dropped from defensive walls.

or

2. The Wedge
[img] [/img]

The wedge was an aggressive formation used to 'crack open' enemy lines. Relatively small groups of legionaries could form such a triangle and then drive their way into the enemy ranks. As more Roman soldiers reinforced the wedge from behind, the enemy line could be forced apart. As breaking the enemy's formation was very often the key to winning a battle, the wedge formation was vitally important battlefield tactic of the Roman army.

Ernie, you're arguing out of your arse!

Now, are you going to accept that, short of sticking a mask over someones face and holding it there while they inhale the gas for half a minute, there is [b]no possible toxic harmful effect[/b] of spraying someone with a Halon fire extinguisher, or do you want me to post the LC50 rodent data?

Ernie, you're arguing out of your arse!

Presumably by that comment, you are suggesting that in your opinion, I don't normally do so.

Thanks ratty, I had no idea your opinion of me was that high. I feel touched.

I'm getting slightly bored now btw.

Then why carry on arguing with it then? Just ignore it. It'll go away eventually.

[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-can-i-stop-sniffing-glue ]There's a nice thread about paint fumes going on[/url]. Maybe it'll have a wander over there, where it might actually be useful and helpful to others for a change instead of constantly arguing.

Then why carry on arguing with it then?

So I'm arguing am I ?

Well **** me, I'm now arguing without even realising it .........could it be more serious ?

I want to make a coffee table with some nice ply for the top. What sort of ply should I use? I like the sandwich layers effect around the edge. How to treat it so's it is lovely and smooth?

Ernie, you're arguing out of your arse!

Presumably by that comment, you are suggesting that in your opinion, I don't normally do so.

It takes quite a remarkable thought process to reach that conclusion.

Brilliant!

Never mind plywood, MDF is where it's at and what did you have for dinner Elf?

Haaaang on... What's all this chat about halon extinguishers and their toxicity or lack of? If anyone was squirting halon around the question isn't whether it was in their face or over their heads, it's why they had the halon extinguisher in the first place since they've been all but outlawed and for good reasons

What sort of ply should I use? How to treat it so's it is lovely and smooth?

For you Elfinman, I would recommend a nice bit of 18 mill shuttering ply. And baby oil should do the trick.

No not MDF; you've got to paint it, and I actually like the edge of ply. You know, when it's rounded off and that, it looks really lovely.

[img] [/img]