[Closed] Ken Livingstone steps in to calm antisemitism row in the Labour Party.

Of course forced deportation is wrong, just ask the 7 million Palestinian refugees in camps around Israel

But congratulations for using the standard lazy defense of anti-zionism = anti-semitism so all debate must be immediately shut down

Have a slow clap from me

Well not only that kimbers but the labour spokesman on Newsnight was insisting the racism and anti-semitism were the same things.

konabunny - Member

1) are you familiar with the legal definition of genocide?

2) are you familiar with the episodes in Jewish history that begin with someone else suggesting that Jews ought to be forcibly moved from here --------> there? They don't usually have a happy ending.

1) yes
2) yes

She still didn't say anything that anyone but the most mental or poisonous could interpret as calling for the extermination of the jewish people, so I'm not really sure what your point is.

@JHJ:

The debate really should be about [s]Israel[/s] Palestine... why are their constant breeches of international law and UN resolutions not only tolerated but for the most part fully supported by [s]western[/s] Middle Eastern governments?

@Kimbers:

Of course forced deportation is wrong, just ask the 7 million Palestinian refugees in camps around Israel

https://vine.co/v/iP5qK3WztZd

So a bit more background to this:

[img] [/img]

[b]Between 9 September and 9 October 1934 the Nazi Party Berlin newspaper Der Angriff, founded and controlled by Joseph Goebbels published a series of twelve pro-Zionist articles by Mildenstein under the title A Nazi Goes to Palestine. In honour of his visit, the newspaper issued a commemorative medallion, with the swastika on one side and the Star of David on the other.[/b]

In the summer of 1935, then holding the rank of SS-Untersturmführer, Mildenstein attended the 19th Congress of the Zionist Organization in Lucerne, Switzerland, as an observer attached to the German Jewish delegation. Mildenstein's apparently pro-Zionist line was overtaken by events, and after a dispute with Reinhard Heydrich in 1936 he was removed from his post and transferred to the Foreign Ministry's press department. [b]He had fallen out of favour because migration to Palestine was not proceeding at a fast enough rate.[/b]

Mildenstein had taken an early interest in Zionism, even going so far as to attend Zionist conferences to help deepen his understanding of the movement. He actively promoted Zionism as a way out of the official impasse on the Jewish question: as a way of making Germany Judenrein (free of Jews). [b]Some Zionists, whose movement had grown tremendously in popularity among German Jews since Hitler came to power, co-operated. On 7 April 1933, the Juedische Rundschau, the bi-weekly paper of the movement, declared that of all Jewish groups only the Zionist Federation of Germany was capable of approaching the Nazis in good faith as "honest partners"[/b]. The Federation then commissioned Kurt Tuchler to make contact with possible Zionist sympathisers within the Nazi Party, with the aim of easing emigration to Palestine, and Tuchler approached Mildenstein, who was asked to write something positive about Jewish Palestine in the press.

Interestingly, [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_von_Mildenstein ]Leopold Von Mildenstein[/url] was responsible for recruiting Adolf Eichmann, who in turn was one of the major organizers of the Holocaust:

Eichmann was invited by Leopold von Mildenstein to join his Jewish Department, Section II/112 of the SD, at its Berlin headquarters.

Yet when Nazi hunters captured Adolf Eichmann, Mildenstein avoided prosecution:

[b]after the capture of Adolf Eichmann in 1960 he claimed immunity as an intelligence agent of the U. S. Central Intelligence Agency[/b], a claim which was neither confirmed nor denied.

Considering Allen Dulles' (a key operative of US Intelligence, who later became head of CIA) pivotal role in funding the Nazis before WW2 and ensuring continued support for financing via the Bank of International Settlements (see more [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/happy-birthday-maam/page/5 ]here[/url] and [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/happy-birthday-maam/page/6 ]here[/url] ) this is potentially an area of grave concern.

The debate really should be about [s]Israel[/s] Palestine... why are their constant breeches of international law and UN resolutions not only tolerated but for the most part fully supported by [s]western[/s] Middle Eastern governments?

Is Palestine growing or shrinking?

How many illegal settlements do Palestinians have in Israel?

Does Palestine have a nuclear weapons program?

How much military aid does Palestine receive funded by tax payers of other countries?

[img] [/img]

but the labour spokesman on Newsnight was insisting racism and anti-semitism are the same thing

Pardon my ignorance but are they not?

If you find yourself defending yourself by referring to another injustice, you are generally on dodgy ground with a hole in it caused by your spade.

Pardon my ignorance but are they not?

Yup, one is a subset of the other. Amazes me we need a separate word. And given hatred of a nation is branded racism these days I'm amazed its OK to hate Isreal. ISTM hating Polish people is racism, hating Isreal isn't, unless you specifically hate Jews. Someone should write all these rules down.

ISTM hating Polish people is racism, hating Isreal isn't, unless you specifically hate Jews

Apples and oranges, you should have said

"ISTM hating Polish people is racism, hating Isreali people isn't"

or

"ISTM hating Poland is racism, hating Isreal isn't"

Pardon my interjection, but, [i]technically[/i], anti-semitism isn't racism.

Racism:

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

And a race is:

"1. A group of people identified as distinct from other groups because of supposed physical or genetic traits shared by the group. Most biologists and anthropologists do not recognize race as a biologically valid classification, in part because there is more genetic variation within groups than between them."

Being Jewish or Muslim (as Semites must be) denotes a membership of a group who share a common language origin, and then latterly, a religion, but not a race.

(awaits accusations of anti-semitism)

hatred of a nation

What does that actually mean? Is a nation something other than its people?

Surely "hatred of Israel" really is a shorthand for "hatred of, or disgust with, the actions of the Israeli govt and those Israelis who support those actions". Of course such shorthand plays into the hands of the apologists for those actions who find it convenient to conflate it with "hatred of the Jewish people".

I know hunners have made this point earlier in the thread, but valid debate on the problems in the ME are being shut down by sloppy definitions, conflations in terms. Meanwhile, bad things go on- on all sides.

Its tragic.

In fact, its just occurred to me that, by trying to conflate anti-semitism with racism, we're implying that Jews (and Arabs, I guess), have a distinct genetically-determined 'look'.

I'll get flamed for this too I guess, but that's just what the Nazis tried to argue with the creation of the Untermensch myth.

So, please stop calling 'anti-semites' racists. Its not the same thing, and definitions are important.

I'm all for criticising Israel, I think it's one of the most repressive and generally repellant governments in the world. I'm careful not to use language that might make me sound anti-Jewish when I do so though.

Really? And do you succeed in criticising Israel in terms that prevent your opponent from claiming you are anti-Semitic? If so, I take my hat off to you, as I've never seen even the mildest show of disapproval fail to elicit that charge.

[i]And do you succeed in criticising Israel in terms that prevent your opponent[/i]

1) Don't say Hitler was a friend to the Jews

2) errrm, that's it

😉

Seriously - I can be critical of something without necessarily having an 'opponent'. Me saying 'I don;t think Israel should have hundreds of children under 14 in prison for 'terrorism' is the way that a government should behave' is not anti-Semitic. Neither is saying that the expansion of settelements on the West Bank is inflammatory and designed to create further tension and conflict which can be used as an excuse for use of additional force. Someone might disagree on the reasons those things happen and the 'yes but what about' starts but I've never been told I'm anti-Jewish.

Apples and oranges, you should have said
"ISTM hating Polish people is racism, hating Isreali people isn't"
or
"ISTM hating Poland is racism, hating Isreal isn't"

Yes, my bad I was typing in a rush.

I still think my point holds true.

Racism:

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

Whereas the law tells us:

[i]
"A racial group means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins." The definition is wide and victims may come within the definition under more than one of the references. Gypsies and some travellers, refugees or asylum seekers or others from less visible minorities would be included within this definition. While Romany gypsies have long been recognised as a ethnic racial group (Commission for Racial Equality v Dutton [1989] QB 783), in more recent times and certainly since the first instance discrimination case of O'Leary v Punch Retail (HHJ Goldstein, Westminster County Court, 29 August 2000), Irish Travellers have also been considered an ethnic racial group. Whilst this has not been considered by an appellate criminal court, the O'Leary case is regarded as being persuasive if the point is ever taken.

There has been a legal ruling that Sikhs are included in the definition of a racial group (Mandla v Dowell-Lee [1983] 2 AC 548). In the Mandla case, reference is made to the judgment in King-Ansell v Police [1979] 2 NZLR 531 as being a persuasive authority for Jews being included in the definition of a racial group as well as a religious group. Although not criminal cases, further support for this proposition can be found in the cases of R v JFS [2009] UKSC 15 which related to the legality of the admission policy of a Jewish secondary school and Seide v Gillette Industries Ltd [1980] IRLR 427 in which an Employment Appeal Tribunal ruled that anti-semitic comments made by a fellow-worker were made because he was a member of the Jewish race, not because of his religion.

"A religious group means a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief. This includes Muslims, Hindus and Christians, and different sects within a religion." It also includes people who do not hold any religious beliefs at all.[/i]

.

What Dr J said

It is possible to insult entire nations and not be called a racist.

I find the Saudis to be a repressive despotic regime that does not allow freedom for its people, exports terrorism and we should replace the system immediately as its abhorrent. We should over throw them immiediately

Not one person will call me racist for saying this - well mefty might but you know 😉
Try positing that with the word Israel in it instead of Saudi and folk will say you hate Jews.

I have no idea why so many conflate disliking what Israel does and hating Jews

I assume it exists only because they know its impossible to defend [ some of] the actions of the country so best to avoid the criticism by just shouting racist at folk

There is no doubt anti semitic views exist
there is no doubt Zionist use it to stifle criticism

Try positing that with the word Israel in it instead of Saudi

Or Poland, or ****stan.

Turns out racism isnt racism if its directed at a country most people hate. Completely subjective.

The dude from the BoD of British Jews on R4 was defining the position of being antizionist as anti semitic and was pushing for his definition to be made policy by the labour party.

Although given that the state of Israel does exist arguing that it shouldn't is kind of nonsensical even if it's not racist.

Anyhoo isn't this just Dave and co. shit stirring before the local elections. I have to say Ken and co have made a cracking job of turning the tories baiting into an existential crisis.

It is possible to insult entire nations and not be called a racist.

So when you criticise or insult Israel, are you referring to Jewish Israelis or Palestinian Israelis?

You have remembered that Palestine isn't a country haven't you? Gaza and the West Bank are part of Israel too.

1) Don't say Hitler was a friend to the Jews

Yes, we have to respect the lessons of the Holocaust. Unless, of course, you're an actual Israeli

FFS is it really that difficult to distinguish between hating an entire people and their government? It's a very simple distinction, so the only conclusion I can come to is that those who choose to ignore it are playing a cynical game of political point scoring to further their own agenda. Of course it's not a coincidence that the main group of people we are now seeing on the news spouting this ridiculous bullsh*t are labour MPs who are opposed to Corbyn. This is the real scandal.

So when you criticise or insult Israel, are you referring to Jewish Israelis or Palestinian Israelis?

You have remembered that Palestine isn't a country haven't you? Gaza and the West Bank are part of Israel too.

QED

No matter how measured your comments on Israel, some nutjob will find a way to see them as racist.

Of course it's not a coincidence that the main group of people we are now seeing on the news spouting this ridiculous bullsh*t are labour MPs who are opposed to Corbyn. This is the real scandal.

And it's not like John Mann doesn't have form in that department.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/john-mann-goes-to-war-with-the-islington-corbynistas/

And it's not like John Mann doesn't have form in that department.

And it's not like JC doesn't have form in that department, too.

And it's not like JC doesn't have form in that department, too.

Going to war with himself? 😕

Good point ninfan, the 2012 Act.

See, this is partly why things are so f*cked.

Turns out racism isnt racism if its directed at a country most people hate.

Disliking a country for what it does and stand for is not racism as you hate them for what they do not what they are. See North korea, Zimbabwe. CHina Myanmar, Saudi etc. Furthermore my opinion can be changed ny their actions improving as it really is not based on their nationality but on their behaviour.

I am also allowed to dislike black and brown people and gay people as long as I dislike them for what they represent and do rather than those arbitrary things above I just listed

Why are some folk struggling with this simple concept?

Going to war with himself?

It's not what I meant, but now you mention it...

A handy guide for those that are struggling

[img] [/img]

I am also allowed to dislike black and brown people and gay people as long as I dislike them for what they represent and do

Care to cite an example sentence?

Why are some folk struggling with this simple concept?

Obviously they're not struggling with it as it's such a simple concept, they're ignoring it to gain some internet forum debating brownie points. It's hilariously pathetic. Or maybe they are actually just idiots?

Care to cite an example sentence?

Are you really that thick that you need examples to understand the difference between disliking a black person and being racist? Grow up.

Care to cite an example sentence?

Ashley Cole is a bellend

excellent, by mefty's definitions I'm not an anti-Semite...

I'm willing to bet Ken isn't either, but hey ho...

dazh hits the marks as usual.

Ashley Cole is a bellend

That's an individual black person, not black people as a racial group.

Thanks mefty. So Naz Shah and Ken Livinsgtone are not anti-semitic, since only point 6 applies to them.

Glad we could clear that up.

He is a bellend though

In time for the next World Cup I'm going to get some flags made up for fans who wish to avoid charges of racism. I'm thinking of the traditional red cross, but with the word "ENGLAND" replaced with "CURRENT ENGLAND FOOTBALL TEAM WITH THE EXCEPTION OF PHIL JAGIELKA"

They should fly off the shelves.

Surely "hatred of Israel" really is a shorthand for "hatred of, or disgust with, the actions of the Israeli govt and those Israelis who support those actions".

No it's not and that's a very basic fail.

Of course such shorthand plays into the hands of the apologists for those actions who find it convenient to conflate it with "hatred of the Jewish people".

No it just highlights that the comment is incorrect or even ignorant. Heres a simple analogy: based on the above it is correct, if not that polite, to say that your comment is ignorant (excuse the term). But it is not correct to say that you are ignorant. Subtle but important differences that often get overlooked.

Thanks for the post Ninfan, I was not aware that the law now ncluded nations as part of race. Very odd

Care to cite an example sentence?

I dont lie Mugabe

I dont like elton john

I dont like ashley cole

The reasons for my dislike are neither their colour nor their sexual orientation its what they do and stand for I dislike so its just not racist or homophobic just because they are black or gay.

Thats an individual black person, not black people as a racial group.

Also not a racist by Meftys terms i dislike zionists and Israel I do not hate jews. The terms are not interchangeable as plenty of non jews support israel and some are zionists.
Anyone who says they hate jews is a racist moron
Anyone who thinks saying i hate/dislike israel means i hate jews is just a moron

No it's not and that's a very basic fail.

Well, this may be a shock, but you saying it's so don't make it so. I suggest you try asking someone who says "I hate Israel/Saudi/****stan/France/Scotland" if they actually mean that they hate (?) every single native of those lands, and dispute their right to exist.