[Closed] Ken Livingstone steps in to calm antisemitism row in the Labour Party.

Unfortunately what you say is true. It needs brave people on both sides to sue for peace. Neither side has the appetite for this

are we witnessing another Junkyardtastic history fail?

“In 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned a little more than 6 percent of the land of Palestine

Our position, however, is that the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes — on both sides — inevitably follow from this original injustice.

I am not engaging further as not even you really believe that to be a true reflection of what happened and if you do its because you are wrong

Save your google fu

The US isn't particularly a huge fan of the current Israel state

Still gives them about $3Bn a year in military aid though
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.611001
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/usaid.html
"In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain."

Every few years Israel uses it's weapons (such as its US built planes, "the purchase of 20 F-35 fighter planes for $2.7 billion – will be financed entirely by aid money") to flatten Gaza. The world, via the UN which of course includes the US, then promises, and breaks its promises to rebuild Gaza.

"original injustice."

As with Ireland, which injustice is the "original" one is totally subjective. That's just one more reason why you need to ignore the issue of blame altogether or you get nowhere. South Africa got it right IMHO.

which injustice is the "original" one is totally subjective. That's just one more reason why you need to ignore the issue of blame altogether or you get nowhere. South Africa got it right IMHO.

There's some truth in that. AAMOI what do you think it would take for the Israelis to agree to that approach? They have rejected every overture as inadequate.

As with Ireland, which injustice is the "original" one is totally subjective

One lot were people who lived somewhere and the other lot were people who took the land and partitioned the country using military force and use this military force to maintain the divided state. Its really not hard at all. See Iran v kuwait if you want to ponder on whether such things are good or bad of "hard to tell".

Its very clear cut who was the original violator and who were the victims

“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.” Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in “A Land of Two Peoples” ed. Mendes-Flohr.

israel has been very effective in making "peace on the ground" to the extent that going back to original borders, which they wont do, would feel like them "giving something up". they are still expansionist now. Of course they say its for "peace" just like we split Ireland for "peace".

"AAMOI what do you think it would take for the Israelis to agree to that approach?"

Presumably Israel will stop fighting when the Arabs stop fighting and the Arabs will stop fighting when the Israelis have been 'driven into the sea'.

I could be wrong about that, but if I'm right it would explain why its been impossible to end the cycle of violence.

Doubtlessly the lack of acceptance of a two state solution by many arabs/palestinians is a major bar to any peace deal

Treating them this way is unlikely to lead to a change of heart.
Israel strategy is to contain and continue to steal land.
We then support them from "terrorist" who dont like this.

The US gives military support to Israel to enable it to defend itself against the likes of Iran who have stated they want to wipe it off the map. And lets not forget Israels neighbours are hardly friends as past history shows.

It should also be remembered that the US also gives significant money and military assistance to the likes of Turkey, Kuwait and Saudi

One lot were people who lived somewhere and the other lot were people who took the land and partitioned the country using military force

Utter codswallop - go and read the Peel Commission report, Arab violence against jewish settlers long predated any of this.

Non sequitur
Unless you wish to argue Israel came into being peacefully and without the use of force that resulted in a partition country then the point stands
You are way of your game today

[img] [/img]

Nothing to see here, ladies and gentlemen and I'm sure that he can't be racist because:
[s]One of his friends is black[/s]
[s]He is a Labour councillor[/s]
[s]His dog ate his homework[/s]
It is all a slur against the labour party.

What the story there as that is a picture from twitter of someone from 2015 that seems to have grabbed your attention.

What is the context/story - I dont do twitter.

[url= http://order-order.com/2016/05/02/labour-councillor-israel-behind-isis-zionist-jews-are-a-disgrace-to-humanity/ ]http://order-order.com/2016/05/02/labour-councillor-israel-behind-isis-zionist-jews-are-a-disgrace-to-humanity/[/url]

Edit, it is the story after:

[url= http://order-order.com/2016/05/02/labour-suspends-relocate-jews-councillor/ ]http://order-order.com/2016/05/02/labour-suspends-relocate-jews-councillor/[/url]

Ta
His views are bonkers

Did you comment on Kimbers list of similar incidents involving Tories?

Still not proof its endemic and I genuinely dont think either labour or tory has anything other than handful of nutters amongst there many hundred of thousands of members/supporters

Its correct to weed them out wherever we find them
its not correct to pretend racism is left only issue.

The comments section from that site are quite telling. Easy to see the types of people it's there for.

Quite hilarious. We have lefties saying the BBC is a blairite infested termite mound over-reporting endemic anti-semitism and on the likes of Guido, which seems set up for right-wing nut-jobs, saying that the BBC is a big left-wing conspiracy not reporting endemic anti-semitism at all.

Meanwhile, nothing of real importance to the country is discussed in earnest.

The US gives military support to Israel to enable it to defend itself against the likes of Iran who have stated they want to wipe it off the map. And lets not forget Israels neighbours are hardly friends as past history shows.

It should also be remembered that Iran would be very different today if not for repeated interference by Western interests to control their oil, including [url= https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=operation+Ajax&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=Uj4nV4OcIIPeUfKVgOAG ]the 1953 coup set up by MI6 and the CIA[/url], involving some of the very same players who hold responsibility for bringing the Nazis to power, which also played a big part in the creation of Israel

The coup was carried out by the U.S. administration of Dwight D. Eisenhower [b]in a covert action advocated by Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, and implemented under the supervision of his brother Allen Dulles, the Director of Central Intelligence.[76] The coup was organized by the United States' CIA and the United Kingdom's MI6[/b], two spy agencies that aided royalists and royalist elements of the Iranian army.

Its correct to weed them out wherever we find them
its not correct to pretend racism is left only issue.

1. I agree of course.
2. There's a fair bit in the last 12 pages of people trying to pretend that there isn't a problem on the left at all, when of course, both political extremes have issues and are driven more by anger and hate than they should be.

I think folk are deny their is a problem- its been called endemic by the more vocal RW on here- because there is no endemic problem in either party

there are isolated cases of nobbers in each party, that show that racists are both everywhere and a very small minority.
Its not a left issue and its obvious, in general, that racism is much more a right wing issue than a left wing issue.

Ots about the upcoming mayoral and local elections rather than deep seated fear or evidence of widespread anti semitism in the labour party

hence we get a few year old tweets from a lowly councillor in Blackburn.

Lets not overstate the issue for political gain.

You shouldn't need to be on any side of a political ideology to know what the state of Israel is doing to the Palestinians is plain wrong.

Use whatever fancy words you like, but the simple one is "wrong".

It should also be remembered that the US also gives significant money and military assistance to the likes of Turkey, Kuwait and Saudi

Significant? Per http://us-foreign-aid.insidegov.com/ (last figures they seem to have are 2012 unfortunately. Military assistance shown only -

Israel $3,100,059,524
Saudi $9.000
Turkey $4,447,100
Kuwait $227,000

"You shouldn't need to be on any side of a political ideology to know what the state of Israel is doing to the Palestinians is plain wrong."

Two sets of wrong happen.

You only mention one set of wrong things.

You understand why people (probably incorrectly) think that the reason you omit the other wrong set is race?

outofbreath - Member
...You understand why people (probably incorrectly) think that the reason you omit the other wrong set is race?

Well seeing as most Israelis are of recent European origin, no.

And if not, in that case are not both groups Semitic?

What I see is a group of people who have invaded another's country bleating that they are being hard done by when anyone voices a complaint against their aggression.

It's beyond race/religion. On one hand you have a powerful western backed and wealthy invader, on the other an oppressed and poor original population.

If you want an example of anti-Jewishness, then maybe take a look at the keenness of the European governments to dump their Jewish populations in someone else's country instead of protecting them at home.

You only mention one set of wrong things

You understand why people (probably incorrectly) think that the reason you omit the other wrong set is race?

I'm quite happy to condemn Israels actions, but equally the Arab surrounding nations have and continue to behave appallingly. The place is a flipping mess, with too much tit for tat and not enough talking.

simons_nicolai-uk your link shows that the US give plenty of cash to surrounding Arab states also. Plus it fails to note assistance in kind, such as intelligence sharing with the Saudi's.

Personally I believe the West would ideally have a Middle East where everyone got along, provided that Russian and Chinese interests were not excessive.

as long as we get the oil we would tolerate anything

There is precious little morality in our foreign policy

I think most reasonable folk accept both sides do bad things

i think where we fall apart i that some think that any people would behave as the palestinians do if the same was done to them and some think israel is the victim of terrorism and Arab neighbours who despise her

There is some truth to both sides but the israeli treatment of the palestinians can never ever lead to peace.

Dragon - come back with some specifics. You said they gave "significant" military aid to 3 specific countries. The amounts for two of them are completely insignificant. The third is only smaller by a factor of 12.

"Personally I believe the West would ideally have a Middle East where everyone got along"

I think so too.

...but it's hard to tell that from our actions in recent years.

There is some truth to both sides but the israeli treatment of the palestinians can never ever lead to peace.

and

There is some truth to both sides but the Palastinian treatment of the Israelis can never ever lead to peace.

That is the sad truth of it - the extremists on both sides are as bad as each other and keep chosing violence over peace, just as both sides did in Northern Ireland for far too long. It takes an aweful lot of squinting to look at one side and see it as an innocent victim of the other.

"Yes they cannot defend what Israel does so they cheaply insinuate you are racist."

It would be very easy to counter that false claim if all criticism was of both sides, instead of just one.

"It takes an aweful lot of squinting to look at one side and see it as an innocent victim of the other"

Nicely put.

but the Palastinian treatment of the Israelis can never ever lead to peace

Cool put up your address and I will be around to kick you out, take your possessions, make say 25 % of the occupants leave and never return and then remind you afterwards[ whilst i am treating you brutally and punishing your entire family, restricting your access to food, water, electricity, healthcare and education] if one of you responds it will be your fault we cannot live in peace
I am sure you will find it a persuasive argument.

It takes an aweful lot of squinting to look at one side and see it as an innocent victim of the other.

It would be very easy to counter that false claim

Feel free to use the thread as example

Anyway its the end game now where all the zionist now try to argue that its the "pro palestinian" who are all one sided.
Your criticism of israel is indeed pretty damn harsh. careful now someone will be calling you a racist if you[s] keep this up[/s] start 🙄

Unfortunately its not about "choosing peace" it about choosing not to be oppressed and all nations would respond as the palestinians do if they were treated how the israelis treat them as would you if i took your house.
That they do this and breach international law is why they get more of the "blame"
No one is blameless.

you said they gave "significant" military aid to 3 specific countries.

For example currently the US assistance to Saudi includes targeting assistance and mid-air refueling of fighter jets, along with weapons sales. I'm not getting onto a who gets what in $, it was merely to point out that although Israel do get a lot of military assistance from the US, so do many of their surrounding Arab neighbours, and the US and Israel aren't in bed with each other as much as many claim.

Lots of interesting stuff but still little evidence of KL being anything other than (a bit of) a prat. This is still a Labour Party issue - it's their mayoral candidate who is being vociferous, they are the party who have suspended a party grandee and supporter of its leader - and apart from making a pigs ear of managing this, they have said nothing that justifies the accusation made. Pretty lame defence against lazy (internal) slurs. Bloody mess.

For once they might be glad for a little princess stealing the front pages

"Unfortunately its not about "choosing peace" it about choosing not to be oppressed and all nations would respond as the palestinians do if they were treated how the israelis treat them as would you if i took your house."

You sound quite enthusiastic about both sides fighting on like all nations would.

I think you'll have your wish though. This is never going to stop.

You sound quite enthusiastic about both sides fighting on like all nations would.

I suppose it was either that or admit the obvious undeniable truth of what I said.
Still dont let the lack of an argument dent your fervour.

I suppose it was either that or admit the obvious undeniable truth of what I said.
Still dont let the lack of an argument dent your fervour.

I didn't dispute the truth of it, I fully accept it as is clear from my response. Any 'nation' who felt a neighbour had taken territory would fight to get it back and any nation attacked with missiles would try to stop it happening/retaliate.

But yes, I'm saying it's far better to take the view that, although a case can be made for carrying on the slaughter, it's better if they just stop.

I fully accept it as is clear from my response

Please feel free to repeat in bold the bit where this happened as its not obvious to me you were agreeing with me...can't think why 😕

You sound quite enthusiastic about both sides fighting on like all nations would.

I think you'll have your wish though. This is never going to stop.

What happens when you dont accept what I say then?

with weapons sales. I'm not getting onto a who gets what in $,

Come on. Surely you can do better than that? Weapons *sales* are trade not aid. If the us wouldn't supply them other countries would queue up - euro fighter would have loved that business. The rest of it is completely unquantified

3bn of military aid to a country that uses it to murder children and bomb civilians. That's what we're talking about here.

outofbreath - Member

any nation attacked with missiles would try to stop it happening/retaliate.

OK, but what's interesting here is... well, Operation Cast Lead followed the quietest period on the border this century, an uneasy 4 months of near-peace which the IDF broke more often and more damagingly than the Palestinians. That lead to the US publically praising Hamas for their efforts to keep the peace...

5 days later, tanks in the Gaza Strip to, quote, "Send Hamas a message". And that escalated and led to a resumption of hostilities and a [i]13150%[/i] increase in rocket attacks.

That doesn't seem like they were trying to stop rocket attacks. A cynic might say the opposite. B'tselem calculated that 79% of all breaks of ceasefire come from the IDF, and 8% from Hamas...

I'm confused. You are still all talking about allotments aren't you?

😀

One of the greatest speeches of all time:

We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender...

You can only admire the people who have the courage to do so.

dragon - Member
...and the US and Israel aren't in bed with each other as much as many claim.

A few billion$$ is hardly a bit on the side...

Cool put up your address and I will be around to kick you out

Hmmm, does it make a difference that I bought this place with proper money and everything ? And who does this apartment get given "back" to ?

The dutch person who sold it to me ?
My son, for whom this has been the only home he has ever known ?
The farmer who sold the land to the developer?
Hans from Hamburg, who's granddad used to camp around these parts in the good old days ?
The Spanish who invaded Holland ?
Luigi from Rome who's rather distant relative enslaved the locals and had their womenfolk off to the slave market ?

Or is there a particular time, say six-thirty-five of a Tuesday evening of a particular year where, if we could magically turn back the clock, everything would be fair and right and the people who you've aligned yourself with would get the [i]RIGHT[/i] and [i]FAIR[/i] outcome ?

The fact is that Israel is staying where it is ( and it should stay where it is* ). You can work with that in mind to bring both sides together to hammer out a deal that they both grumble about, in peace, or you can pick a side and a random time and never be part of the solution - at best you'll spend the rest of your life ****ing your gums and helping in a tiny way to continue suffering and hatred and fear on both sides.

As a mental exercise, can I suggest you sit down and think of 5 things that have been done in the name of the Palestinian cause that you think are disgusting - you don't need to list them here, but it might be good for you to start thinking in terms other than right vs. wrong, good vs. bad, white vs. black, Japs vs. Commandos.

No one wanted to be a Jap when we played as kids as they were [b]The Bad Ones[/b].

Oh and when you do come knocking, be prepared for the vicious Bengal guard cats - you're going to get a proper padding.

Shall I put the kettle on ?

* The settlement program is not justifiable.

That doesn't seem like they were trying to stop rocket attacks. A cynic might say the opposite.

If Israel want rocket attacks isn't that all the more reason to stop rocket attacks? - If Hamas are provoking Israel, Israel shouldn't respond, the same logic dictates that if, in fact, Hamas are being provoked *by* Israel then Hamas shouldn't respond*.

Either way, thinking up reasons why one side are right to attack the other isn't helping. You can easily justify continued bloodshed - far better to make the case for ending it.

*Same with 9/11: if a bunch of Saudi nutters attack you in the hope that you'll kick off a holy war, it's probably better not to go along with the plan.

You can only admire the people who have the courage to do so.

I'd like to think that if WW2 was still going on that after 75 years of endless slaughter and horror we might say "Tell you what, you can keep half of Poland as long as we can all stop fighting forever."

In fact, we didn't go to war with Russia which is pretty much letting them have Poland and a fair bit else purely so we didn't have to keep fighting.

Endless war is miserable, even if you think your cause is just.

Admiring their ability to tenaciously kill each other over decades is easy from a few thousand miles away, I'm not sure you'd be so enthusiastic if you live there.