cranberry - Member
...but it might be good for you to start thinking in terms other than right vs. wrong, good vs. bad, white vs. black, Japs vs. Commandos.No one wanted to be a Jap when we played as kids as they were The Bad Ones...
It's very much about right vesus wrong though.
It's wrong to invade someone else's country, and it's right for them to resist. Hope that's cleared it up for you.
Oh, and the "Japs" really were the bad guys...
The fact is that Israel is staying where it is ( and it should stay where it is* ). You can work with that in mind to bring both sides together to hammer out a deal that they both grumble about, in peace, or you can pick a side and a random time and never be part of the solution
You answered this yourself - Israel is NOT staying where it is, and never has. If it did, probably there would be some vestiges of peace already.
The fact is that Israel is staying where it is ( and it should stay where it is* ). You can work with that in mind to bring both sides together.
I fully agree israel has achieved what it wants on the ground,which has never been about respecting borders now has it, and now it needs to achieve it in reality. I dont favour driving her into the sea as a solution any more than I support the utter subjugation of the palestinians by the israelis.
Do you think there current MO is proving effective or will prove effective?
think of 5 things that have been done in the name of the Palestinian cause that you think are disgusting
I could do this a zionist would be stumped and would have to challenge me again on some point or other[ probably an ad hom]
Again both sides do bad things I dont obfuscate or ask you a tricky question about israel i accept the point and agree as its blindingly bloody obvious. Try it with a zionist, can I recommend Jamby as your first attempt?
Look at outofbreaths dancing to avoid criticising israel rather than try this with me,pretty please
Its an armed struggle [b]both sides[/b] are often acting like ****s.
However this remains true for all people
It's wrong to invade someone else's country, and it's right for them to resist. Hope that's cleared it up for you
From Churchill to Hamas if you like.
it's right for them to resist
If they both resist really well this could still be going in another 4000 years....
Maybe those pussies in South Africa/Ireland should kick off again? After all it's wrong to stop killing when you know your cause is the right one.
Straw man ad homs galore.
Do you think the black people were justified in arms resistance against the South African govt ?
If we still had apartheid would they have stopped?
I wonder how you will choose to avoid answering those questions.
They only stop killing when they think or they do achieve their legitimate political goals. If you want peace its going to require a little more than just asking both sides nicely to stop.
You answered this yourself - Israel is NOT staying where it is, and never has.
See also:
That is the sad truth of it - the extremists on both sides are as bad as each other and keep chosing violence over peace, just as both sides did in Northern Ireland for far too long. It takes an aweful lot of squinting to look at one side and see it as an innocent victim of the other.
Look at outofbreaths dancing to avoid criticising israel
Why would I need to criticize either side?
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'd quite like it to stop.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'd quite like it to stop.
Indeed.
I hope you don't think me pro-Zionist - because I am not. I grew up thinking Israel to be bravely fighting against overwhelmingly bad neighbours, That outlook died long ago - the worst of them are entirely as bad as the worst of the Palestinians.
The best of either side deserve a much better life than they have any right to expect if things continue as they are.
My point is that being pro-<whateverside> is not helping and never will help to improve things.
I hope that you are thinking about that list out of sight/earshot of whomever on here you don't want to share it with.
@ cranbery why have you not just explicitly agreed with the obvious truth that Israelis borders have been expansionist and turned it round to a both sides do bad things?
Put it in your hypothetical list if you like 🙄
Its still wrong to steal peoples land by military force, ignore international orders and UN resolutions and r settle in these areas
The reason the Un are against it is because it leads to this sort of shit for hundreds of years.
yes both sides do bad things so lets just ignore that as it will almost certainly aid the peace process and in no way elicits the behaviour of fighting them on the beaches.
I hope that you are thinking about that list out of sight/earshot of whomever on here you don't want to share it with.
I hope you are going to ask a zionist and re read my post 🙄
Might want to re read your own post as you never asked me to share it with anyone on here either - you were very explicit on that point but hey why not use it for yet another shitty personal dig eh 🙄
I suspect we could all easily list 50 atrocities[ not the zionists its all the palestinians fault] done by both sides
outofbreath - MemberIf Israel want rocket attacks isn't that all the more reason to stop rocket attacks? - If Hamas are provoking Israel, Israel shouldn't respond, the same logic dictates that if, in fact, Hamas are being provoked *by* Israel then Hamas shouldn't respond*.
That's what happened, for 4 months. This apparently upset the Israelis, so they invaded. TBF, the precedent suggests more that Hamas need to figure out the [i]correct[/i] number of rockets. If things get too quiet and the international community notices, then shit hits the fan.
I hope you are going to ask a zionist and re read my post
I don't suppose you know where I could find a partial, bigotted fool who can only see one side of an argument, do you ?
a mirror
you missed this bit from the full quote
why not use it for yet another shitty personal dig eh
Again well done engaging on the issue and points raised by simply name calling.
Dont let that make you consider the paucity of your argument as its definitely the sign of a fatal flaw in my character, rather than your viewpoint.
a mirror
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The best of either side deserve a much better life than they have any right to expect if things continue as they are.My point is that being pro-<whateverside> is not helping and never will help to improve things.
This.
It's a fair point~ ultimately, there are many good people on both sides, whose lives are being degraded by the aggressors in the conflict... however, things get trickier when the aggressors in the conflict include the government themselves and a program of indoctrination:
So know we know from a Telegragph piece that 50 Labour Party members (including senior figures like council leaders) have been suspended as a result of anti-semitism in the past 2 months. Know we know why the first two investigations have been kicked into the long grass (suppressed). The other factor to come to light is that many of tehse anti-semites have joined Labour to support Corbyn's leadership, it makes sense if you are anti-semitic you want to see a leader who gives credibility and shows repect to Hezbollah and Hamas.
#jambyslur
#jewhatingterroristsympathiser
#oldandtired
By contrast, it's interesting how little media coverage and discussion there's been regarding [url= http://www.****/news/article-3564798/Charges-loom-election-probe-Police-told-election-watchdog-prepared-prosecute-dozens-Tory-candidates-officials-spending-limit-breaches.html ]the possibility of a new general election triggered by Conservative Party candidates breaking Electoral laws[/url]:
Police have been instructed by the election watchdog to be ready to prosecute dozens of Tory candidates and officials.The Conservative Party is facing damaging claims that it breached strict spending rules in a string of key marginal seats at last year's General Election.
Deliberate breach of spending limits by individual candidates – usually around £15,000 – is a criminal offence punishable by a fine or even a one-year jail term.
Any candidate found guilty would automatically be barred from holding public office for three years, triggering a new election.
Still, that being the case, probably best to have a bloody good go at getting a more Establishment focused labour leader such as David Miliband (allegedly) in place before Her Majesty's Government election 2.0
Number of Labour members = over 180000
Number of suspensions quoted = 50
Number of suspensions that led to expulsions = we don't know. Being investigated isn't a crime.
Number of those suspended who have joined since Corbyn was elected = we have no clue. But it's to be expected that most people suspended for breaching party standards will be new, of course. So what we want to know is, is there an unusual pattern here.
Now you have to also ask how many people have been suspended from other parties? That's not "whataboutery"- member suspension is perfectly normal party activity, parties have open doors so anyone can wander in and have to be kicked out. (I'm a Labour member ffs and I support the SNP...)
But I had a google and found a Tory MP candidate suspended for conspiring with the EDL to create anti-islamic tension, one suspended over the Elliot Johnson case, a councillor and another MP candidate suspended for homophobia, a councillor suspended for linking the SNP to ISIS... Oh, and a conservative association deputy chairman and council candidate suspended for antisemitism.
That's just the first 2 pages of google... But of course, most suspensions are unreported. And it's not that they're secret, it's that they're not news- "dude you've never heard of suspended" "1 in 3600 party members turns out to be a dick". And as mentioned, most will be new- they join, they get found out, they get kicked.
I wonder if there's any figures out there for party suspensions in general? I know the SNP suspended a few recently. Even UKIP do it... It's probably impossible to get suspended from the Liberals, you can lie to your electorate to save your seat and that's fine after all.
Appreciate this could seem whatabouteryish but the point is about understanding the big picture.
A well worded somethingion of the situation LIKES
its interesting we have the usual RW suspects shouting racist whilst Zac Goldsmith is playing the race card in the London mayoral election - any coincidence in all "this" coming out at election time #JHJ time- and dog whistling but no comment then
Its little more that Tory shit stirring as the problem they have is no worse than any other party fuelled by the internal labour PLP hatred of Corbyn- they seem to be prepared to commit suicide over their hatred as the Tories are doing the same over the EU- all aided by the soothing diplomatic tones of Ken
it makes sense if you are anti-semitic you want to see a leader who gives credibility and shows repect to Hezbollah and Hamas.
Do I need to explain for you what's going on in this picture jambalaya?
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Saudi textbooks vilify Jews (and Christians and non-Wahabi Muslims): according to 21 May 2006 issue of The Washington Post, Saudi textbooks claimed by them to have been sanitized of antisemitism still call Jews apes (and Christians swine); demand that students avoid and not befriend Jews; claim that Jews worship the devil; and encourage Muslims to engage in Jihad to vanquish Jews.[8]
Saudi Arabian media often attacks Jews in books, news articles, at their Mosques and with what some describe as antisemitic satire. Saudi Arabian government officials and state religious leaders often promote the idea that Jews are conspiring to take over the entire world; as proof of their claims they publish and frequently cite The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as factual.[10][11]One Saudi Arabian government newspaper suggested that hatred of all Jews is justifiable. "Why are they (the Jews) hated by all the people which hosted them, such as Iraq and Egypt thousands years ago, and Germany, Spain, France and the UK, up to the days they gained of power over the capital and the press, in order to rewrite the history?"[12]
Even during the height of the Saudi crackdown on extremism in 2004, a Saudi IQRA TV "man on the street" segment on feelings toward Jews, was entirely antagonistic. Interviewees described Jews as "our eternal enemies", "murderous", "the enemies of Allah and His Prophet," "murderers of prophets," "the filthiest people on the face of this earth", etc.[13] [14]
In 2001, Arab Radio and Television of Saudi Arabia produced a 30-part television miniseries entitled "Horseman Without a Horse", a dramatization of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[15] One Saudi Arabian government newspaper suggested that hatred of all Jews is justifiable.[16]
Antisemitism is common within religious circles. Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais, the imam of the Grand mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, has been described as an antisemite[17][18] for publicly praying to God to 'terminate' the Jews[19]
@grum Saudi King - we sell $4bn in arms, the French sell $12bn. Saudi a nation state and major Western ally benefitting from direct in-country US military assitance. Hamas and Hezbollah internationally recognised terrorist organisations. What's your point ?
@Northwind, 50 is the tip of a very large iceberg. Just look at the individuals - not rank and file but senior members, head of councils etc. For the anti-semites Corbyn is the best thing that's happened to them ever. He's kicked the first two investigations into the long grass as he knew what was contained within them, now comissioned another to report later, much later and most definitely after the elections
Junkyard, the reality of these revelations is quite simply #jamba-told-you-so
Best troll ever
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Think it's pretty obvious what my point was. It's about rank hypocrisy, something you specialise in.
This firmly and eloquently hits the nail on the head
[i][b]Labour has a severe problem with antisemitism that will get worse if the party’s inquiry into the issue is used as “sticking plaster” to placate voters, the chief rabbi has warned.[/b]
“There are many people, from all sectors of our society, who are demanding more responsibility, particularly from our politicians, for stamping out racism and antisemitism. The Labour party has a long and proud history of doing precisely that.
“Yet, comments from senior and long-standing members of the party, both Jewish and not, show just how severe the problem has now become.
“Everyone agrees that there must be no place for antisemitism in our politics and I welcome the inquiry recently announced by the party’s leadership. And yet, I would sound an urgent note of caution. In recent days, we have heard antisemitism in the Labour party described variously as ‘a smear’ and as ‘mood music’ being manipulated by political opponents of Jeremy Corbyn.
“There has been nothing more disheartening in this story than the suggestion that this is more about politics than about substance. The worst of mistakes, in trying to address this problem would be to treat it as a political attack which requires a political solution.”
He added: “Zionism is a movement celebrated by people right across the political spectrum, all over the world, and requires no endorsement or otherwise of the particular policies of any Israeli government at any time.
“But to those people who have nevertheless sought to redefine Zionism, who vilify and delegitimise it, be under no illusions – you are deeply insulting not only the Jewish community but countless others who instinctively reject the politics of distortion and demonisation.”[/i]
Nah, misses the nail totally and slams down right on the thumb.
It's about as eloquent as your prose Jamba.
Is this anti-semitic?
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I cannot believe, given the glorious Bank holiday weekend many of us have had, that some of you appear to have spent all of it in front of a computer, arguing on here. The question you must ask yourselves, is 'what have I actually achieved?' Whilst it's good to engage in debate and discussion, unless you are actually going to go in with an open mind and be willing to see things though another point of view, you're just going to be pissing into the wind. I've not read all the preceding posts, but a quick glance suggests nothing more than the boringly predictable polarised guff you find all over the internet. A regurgitation of hasbara, little else.
Jambalaya; I've noticed you do seem to come in for a lot of stick on here, and I'm really not a fan of making things personal, but I think you would really do yourself a favour by stepping away from your keyboard a lot more often. The naivety and insularity of your arguments really don't help you in such a debate at all. You're by far from being alone on here in this, but you do stand out as being painfully lacking in self-awareness, to the point of ridicule. You cannot simply twist, distort and ignore facts to support your argument, it really does you no favours. As important an issue as this is, I'm really unwilling to engage with it on here, because it's clear we will not reach any sort of intelligent consensus whilst people are so polarised and entrenched in their views. Having said that, I think there are several who could wind it in when it comes to criticising and even insulting you; it's fine to expose another's argument as weak, facile or incorrect, but resorting to ad hominem attacks to make another look inferior, is the mark of insecurity.
Anyway; the sun is shining and I for one won't be stuck in front of a computer all day if I can help it. Good day to you all.
Exactly. It just does exactly what every other piece I've read seems to do and that's saying that "Labour has a problem with anti-semitism" without evidence other than - "Look! Someone else said that 'Labour has a problem with anti-semitism' therefore it must be true".kimbers - MemberNah, misses the nail totally and slams down right on the thumb.
You cannot simply twist, distort and ignore facts to support your argument, it really does you no favours.
He really doesn't care, he's been masturbating furiously over his keyboard for the last 4 days straight at the thought of Corbyn being in trouble.....
it's fine to expose another's argument as weak, facile or incorrect, but resorting to ad hominem attacks to make another look inferior, is the mark of insecurity.
Its the result of long periods of time having to deal with someone who does this
You cannot simply twist, distort and ignore facts to support your argument, it really does you no favours.
Zionism is a movement celebrated by people right across the political spectrum, all over the world, and requires no endorsement or otherwise of the particular policies of any Israeli government at any time.
Utter bollocks or its true and I am a zionist...tough to tell.
“But to those people who have nevertheless sought to redefine Zionism, who vilify and delegitimise it, be under no illusions – you are deeply insulting not only the Jewish community but countless others who instinctively reject the politics of distortion and demonisation.”
Oh the irony he wants to lecture me on the politics of distortion and demonisation.Its not my fault that every time i criticize israel folk treat it as me criticising jews of which this thread has numerous examples.Its just more of the same false argument that to attack zionism - which has been redefined in much the same way anti semitism has been redefined , neither mean what they once did- is attacking jews ;its not its attacking Israel and zionist cannot defend how israel behaves hence they shout racist.
Saudi a nation state and major Western ally benefitting from direct in-country US military assitance
Yep - these are the guys!!
In evidence to the committee, both Harneis and Save the Children’s Grant Pritchard described the bombing they had witnessed on the ground as “indiscriminate”, corroborating careful investigations by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and UN experts, which all described the same pattern.In her evidence, Josephine Hutton of Oxfam remarked that attacks on hospitals, schools and aid agency warehouses are so frequent that it is now “pretty hard” to see them as accidental. The committee itself acknowledged that the “evidence we have received, from humanitarian actors operating on the ground in Yemen and respected human rights organisations including UN commissioned evidence, unanimously suggested that humanitarian law is being breached”.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/05/saudi-arabia-bombs-yemen-tories-human-rights
Its odd isnt it he spends ages warning us of the threat of islamaphobia ,being exported from saudi, and then he defends them on this thread
Tories be being racist as well
Cannot wait to hear jamby give them both barrels for their racism it will be deafening wont it.
I mean he wont just ignore it and just attack labour will he
As stated all parties, and indeed STW, has a tiny tiny minority of folk who are racists. It is not the preserve of one party.
Tories be being racist as well
Yeah, but its not like the tories have ever pretended to be nice people is it?
and we haven't had 20 odd years of the 'loony right' running to the press and then social media jumping up and down pointing fingers and shouting words ending in ist and ism and demanding action be taken against anyone they don't like for some total non event and none story, have we?
Labour party - hoist on their own petard!
What percentage of anti semitism is contained in these words?
"It's scary to see horrifying developments that took place in Europe begin to unfold here, because if there is one thing that is scary in remembering the Holocaust, it is noticing horrific processes which developed in Europe – particularly in Germany – 70, 80, and 90 years ago, and finding remnants of that here among us in the year 2016.""The Holocaust, in my view, must lead us to deep soul-searching about the nature of man. It must bring us to conduct some soul-searching as to the responsibility of leadership and the quality of our society. It must lead us to fundamentally rethink how we, here and now, behave towards the other."
"There is nothing easier and simpler than in changing the foreigner,"
This passage in particular is interesting, given the recent [s]justified outrage[/s] bollocks
"[b]There is nothing easier and simpler than fear-mongering and threatening. There is nothing easier and simpler than in behaving like beasts, becoming morally corrupt, and to act sanctimoniously."[/b]"On Holocaust Remembrance Day, it is worthwhile to ponder our capacity to uproot the first signs of intolerance, violence, and self-destruction that arise on the path to moral degradation"
Yeah, but its not like the tories have ever pretended to be nice people is it?
So you're ok with your party being racist as long as they've never pretended to be nice people? Sounds about what I'd expect from the likes of you to be honest.
@clodhopper I have in 4 years here never made any personal remarks but in you're case I'm going to make an exception and say you'd don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about. In my 35 year career I have travelled extensively and soent a huge amount of time throughout the Middle East and in Malaysia and Indonesia. I have also worked with and for a broad variety of Jewish people of quite baried political leanings. My views are based on that experience.
What I need to do is my business and if I wanted your opinion on it I would have asked. I didn't ask so you can be assured I don't give a t0ss about your 2 pence.
Israel stands on the threshold of a materially stronger relationship with the US, Obama has never been "a fan" as he's found the Israelis don't care for his desire to "leave a legacy" as seen by his idiotic deal with Iran. If Trump wins he'll effectively reverse it btw. Jews are leaving Europe in their 10'000s as they don't feel safe, most are going to Israel where despite the Hamas attacks they know they will be protected. They'll pay their taxes there and strengthen the Jewish homeland with their talent and expertise,
This thread was about anti-semitism in the Labour Party, something I have seen first hand on many occasions and something I have commented about on here months if not years before the story "broke". Finally the press have taken note and moved to publish what many of us have known to be the case for many years and a situation which the election of Corbyn and his terrorist apologist tendances have only inflamed, he's an (unintentional) recruiting sergeant for anti-semites and extremists.
I see the usual suspects are doing all they can to avoid discussing the real issue of anti-semtism in the Labour Party including the list of senior elected officials who have been suspended. As the Chief Rabi said himself, thise trying to distract attention from the real and [b]severe[/b] issue are part of the problem
😯
I cannot discuss it as one post tells me they have all joined recently because corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser and then the next post says that they are all senior and presumably been there for years
No jamby folk are reluctant to indulge in your anti labour bigotry because an actual rational debate is impossible and your contradict yourself, fact dont matter and you just keep saying things - Any evidence to support the thousand fleeing due to fear? I am getting sick of asking you for a csource on this point,
All partied have a very small number of members who are racist neither party is racist in any real degree and anyone who says otherwise is putting their own politics before the facts which is pretty tragic
I despise the tories I think they serve the rich and the powerful but I am not as daft as try and characterise them as racists as i am not irrational
you can type toss btw where as trying to avoid the wear filter is an actual offence
The real problem is that Zionists have decided that anyone who criticise israel is a racist they are now trying to suggest that anyone who does not agree with them is a racist. Its a pathetically weak argument.
There is no anti semitism anywhere on this thread just he usual suspects who cannot defend israel engaging in name calling and shouting racist as even they know they cannot defend israel on any moral or legal basis.
EDIT: too late to edit, @clodhopper but you should read some of the Israel related threads including those around the time of the 2014 Gaza war, this one is positively polite by all parties in comparison
Junky you'll have to be a bit more specific
Know you love the IDF Jambolocks:
[b]
IDF military chief backtracks after appearing to compare Israel to Nazi Germany[/b]
'It's scary to see horrifying developments that took place in Europe begin to unfold here', he said [/url]
What percentage of anti semitism is contained in these words?
"It's scary to see horrifying developments that took place in Europe begin to unfold here, because if there is one thing that is scary in remembering the Holocaust, it is noticing horrific processes which developed in Europe – particularly in Germany – 70, 80, and 90 years ago, and finding remnants of that here among us in the year 2016.""The Holocaust, in my view, must lead us to deep soul-searching about the nature of man. It must bring us to conduct some soul-searching as to the responsibility of leadership and the quality of our society. It must lead us to fundamentally rethink how we, here and now, behave towards the other."
"There is nothing easier and simpler than in changing the foreigner,"
This passage in particular is interesting, given the recent [s]justified outrage[/s] bollocks[b] "There is nothing easier and simpler than fear-mongering and threatening. There is nothing easier and simpler than in behaving like beasts, becoming morally corrupt, and to act sanctimoniously."[/b]
"On Holocaust Remembrance Day, it is worthwhile to ponder our capacity to uproot the first signs of intolerance, violence, and self-destruction that arise on the path to moral degradation"
Here's some pictures of the IDF to cheer you up:
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ultimately, there are many good people on both sides, whose lives are being degraded by the aggressors in the conflict... however, things get trickier when the aggressors in the conflict include the government themselves and a program of indoctrination:/p>
about what?
