[Closed] Ken Livingstone steps in to calm antisemitism row in the Labour Party.

Abbott on Marr this morning.

Apparently she was campaigning against anti semitism before it was fashionable.

#hipster

Just how removed from reality must the leadership of the Labour Party be to think that putting Diane 'White people love to play divide and rule' Abbott up as a spokesperson to try and calm the waters in any form of race allegations was a good idea?

Seriously, someone has actually sat there and thought "I know, we'll send Diane in to defuse the situation"

Well if at first you dont succeed 😉

Did the party actually do this or is it just because she has such a media presence? Genuine question as she would not be my first choice.

Knowing the bbc currently, they had the choice of a few and thought 'oooh Diane Abbott - she'll put her foot in it - that'll be good telly'

bbc currently, they had the choice of a few and thought 'oooh Diane Abbott - she'll put her foot in it - that'll be good telly'

Which would be all the more reason for the well tuned press team of the leadership to stamp on it. She's not just front bench, but a shadow cabinet minister FFS, do you really think that the press team just leave her to pitch up at TV studios and say what she likes?

So presumably Finklestein was roundly denounced as anti Semitic?

The BBC with it's particularly mendacious notion of impartiality is running out of bullets ...

So presumably Finklestein was roundly denounced as anti Semitic?

Sounds like Aboott did what she is told - it's an smear campaign don't you know

Diane always does as she's told

but to cite him as an example of 'Jewish' attitudes is to ignore the fact that he is an uncompromising maverick in this debate.

The claim is that repating what the Jewish son of holocaust survivors posted was a sign of anti semitism.
He may well be a maverick but its gonna be damn hard to prove he is anti semitic

Do his views suddenly become anti semitic when a non jew repeats them?

"Diane 'White people love to play divide and rule' Abbott up as a spokesperson to try and calm the waters in any form of race allegations was a good idea?"

I found it quite funny until I wondered if JC and JMcD are so isolated they can't get anyone to speak for the party on this topic, which makes me feel a bit sorry for them. They ain't young and they stood for the leadership with the best of intentions.

"Do his views suddenly become anti semitic when a non jew repeats them?"

Nope, nor do they become non-racist just because a Jew posted them.

Personally, I don't think the image was racist, but the identity of the poster is irrelevant: Some people hate their own family, some people hate their own race. It's still hate, its still prejudice.

Would a bloke down the pub saying 'All the Blacks should be deported to Africa' make him a Rastafarian? It is all about context.
I think it is perfectly possible to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic or racist. But Livingstone citing Hitler as a way of denigrating Zionism is pretty offensive I'd have thought.

Which would be all the more reason for the well tuned press team of the leadership to stamp on it. She's not just front bench, but a shadow cabinet minister FFS, do you really think that the press team just leave her to pitch up at TV studios and say what she likes?

It puts a different complexion on this whole issue, doesn't it?

Sounds like Aboott did what she is told - it's an smear campaign don't you know

I think [url= https://colinrtalbot.wordpress.com/2016/05/01/the-lefts-problem-with-anti-semitism/ ]this [/url]is a good summary of the issues.

The idea of creating a Jewish state in Palestine – Zionism – was a minority one amongst Jews before WWII and the Holocaust. It was opposed by most of great powers, including Britain. It was also opposed by most left-wingers, but not all.

WWII and the Holocaust changed that forever. The need for a Jewish homeland was an overwhelmingly obvious consequence of the catastrophe that engulfed European Jews.

In the Balfour Declaration of 1917, the United Kingdom became the first world power to endorse the establishment in Palestine of a "national home for the Jewish people." The British government confirmed this commitment by accepting the British Mandate for Palestine in 1922 (along with their colonial control of the Pirate Coast, Southern Coast of Persia, Iraq and from 1922 a separate area called Transjordan, all of the Middle-Eastern territory except the French territory). The European powers mandated the creation of a Jewish homeland at the San Remo conference of 19–26 April 1920.[6] In 1948, the State of Israel was established.

There is a difference between a homeland and a state, Begin was regarded as a terrorist by the British government and certainly the Army serving in the area post WWII.

Possibly but its hard to see how they can have a homeland that is not a sate

The second point is true and it would be false to pretend it was some sort of smooth transition we always supported.

However the other author is being one sided as there was commitment prior to WW2 and the British were not "opposed" though they may have been resistance to certain outcomes and barrier to settlement. However I am not sure it's fair to say we were always against it and certainly not as un nuanced as that piece.

"However the other author is being one sided as there was commitment prior to WW2 and the British were not "opposed" though they may have been resistance to certain outcomes and barrier to settlement. However I am not sure it's fair to say we were always against it and certainly not as un nuanced as that piece."

It was written in a blog to sketch out the pre war status quo. In context it's fine - the world wasn't wildly in favour of a Jewish homeland, after the war it became the best of a bad lot of options. True enough for the purposes of the blog.

@mefty yes an interesting read.

When Israel was first established the Soviet Union believed it would key a key ally against US in the region, numerous Kibutz with strong left wing ideals where set up and left wing ideals in Israel was strong inckuding from many Eastern European Jews. However, the Israelis recognised that the US would be thier stronger ally and many European Jews where relocating there so links grew stronger. They also saw a post war Soviet Republic would be a place of freedom.

IMHO today many left wing supporters of the Palestinian cause are doing so as a proxy for their hatred of the US, as the piece says those organizations they support are not interested in a two state solution, nor of Jews and Arabs living together. Nor are those organizations seeking a modern, liberal society or indeed democratic society. That doesn't matter to them as long as they ' stick up two fingers' to the US and the Isrealis, ie Jews.

Obvious correction

They also saw a post war Soviet Republic would [b]not[/b] be a place of freedom.

Also, many on the left think there are votes to be won via their anti-Israel stance. Cynical politics.

today many left wing supporters of the Palestinian

I'm sure there are some who feel that way, but IMHO the vast majority just want to see a peaceful settlement and an end to Israeli abuses , without any sort of ulterior motive

@kimbers I hope you are right

From Sky News

[i]Meanwhile, Jewish donors are reported to have abandoned the party, including Sir Ronald Cohen, the social investment pioneer who donated more than £2.5m to Labour under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.

He told The Times: "There is no room for racism among the values of the Labour party. If the leadership does not stamp out racism now, racism will stamp out the Labour party."[/i]

I think Jerry Adams was jealous about all the publicity Ken's been getting

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/02/gerry-adams-defends-n-word-tweet-django-unchained ]N word[/url]

Gerry Adams is worried about being considered a bigot!? Reminds me of when he was distancing himself from terrorists after 9/11.

I think the left's position on Israeli isn't really complex, it was a supporter of Israeli, right up until the point it became a US puppet right wing state.

As Kimber points out, for a lot of folk it's not a Jew/Arab thing it's a Stop acting like a warmongering bully state to your immediate mostly defenceless neighbour thing...

Meanwhile on Planet Jamba

the left think there are votes to be won via their anti-Israel stance. Cynical politics.

Do you really believe this rubbish you keep typing?

"mostly defenceless"

Defenceless, but endlessly willing to attack.

Or defend, depending on your point of view.

the world wasn't wildly in favour of a Jewish homeland

I have no idea, short of revisionism. how one can argue that the Uk was against a Jewish homeland as it is just not true.

Of course the holocaust changed the landscape but the "true enough" means hopelessly one sided and misleading. I am not going to read the musings of someone who want to inaccurately describe the past as i assume they are just as inaccurate about the present.

IMHO today many left wing supporters of the Palestinian cause are doing so as a proxy for their hatred of the US,

Really ? i always thought unwavering support for israel was marked by a sign of islamophobia, You often find the most vocal Israel supporters are also the ones constantly reminding how much the world is under threat from radical islam which will blight europe.

There is almost no limit to the [s]stupid[/s]creative reasons you will give for dislike of israel ....its what she does dude- and banding around ever more ludicrous reasons is just another insight into your [anti left] bigotry/difficulty with facts and nothing else.

many on the left think there are votes to be won via their anti-Israel stance. Cynical politics.

You never did explain what the statement meant about arabs in Israel and their nationality - would you like to have a go now or are we just glossing over you being wrong again?

Both views have racists neither side is typified by it.

Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to avoid justifying their own views whilst engaging in ad hom attacks,

So if you dislike israel you are a racist who hates Us - what other reason could there be ?Its a pathetic[literal meaning] line of attack.

Defenceless, but endlessly willing to attack.

Perhaps they are listening to the Israeli critics of Holocaust victims who they say should have offered more resist to the Nazis.

nickc - Member
...As Kimber points out, for a lot of folk it's not a Jew/Arab thing it's a Stop acting like a warmongering bully state to your immediate mostly defenceless neighbour thing...

It's pretty straightforward. Let's Godwin this again.

If the Nazis had managed to invade and occupy Southern England and hold it, would we be anti-caucasian for opposing it and supporting the oppressed Northern English?

outofbreath - Member
"mostly defenceless"

Defenceless, but endlessly willing to attack.

"Or defend, depending on your point of view."

AFAICT there's no element of defence. They chuck missiles at Isreal to provoke military response so we all call Isreal the aggressor which furthers the aim of getting rid of Isreal.

What other purpose could the random missiles and border stabbings serve?

You should watch this:

what other purpose could the random missiles and border stabbings serve?

A large part is despair IMO. Of course if the US would support them with nice new precision weapons like they give the Israelis their fire could be a lot less random.

would we be anti-caucasian

what other purpose could the random missiles and border stabbings serve?

It becomes a chicken and egg situation what one side does "justifies" the other. However the simple fact is that what Israel does will lead to what the palestinians do. The peace has to start with them stopping being such ****s to the palestinians who need to immediately respond by ending , massively ineffectual, bombing and recognising a two state solution.

Its unlikely either side will be making these moves as they prefer to "defend" themselves by bombbing the others who are the baddies.

This is no road map to peace.

* all people have the right to self defence. If your neighbor stole your garden , then started stealing your electricity and your food eventually you're going to do something "bad" back to them.

"Its not "right""

I didn't say if I thought it was right or not, I just said why I thought they did it.

Also worth a watch:

if you steal the land from people and then steal some more land from the people

Worth remembering that much of the Land on which Israel was built was bought fair and square from the Palestinians

Worth remembering that much of the Land on which Israel was built was bought fair and square from the Palestinians

Worth remembering that a whole lot more of it wasn't.

right up until the point it became a US puppet right wing state.

The US isn't particularly a huge fan of the current Israel state. In the past the US has spied on Israel as they don't trust them and also gone to big measures to stop them getting involved with Iran and the like. When Obama wanted to bring Iran back in from the cold, he did it without support from Israel. John Kerry said when he went to tell Netanyahu up front what was planned, Netanyahu briefed the press first against the US policy, then screamed at Kerry for 30 minutes, in what Kerry described as the most unpleasant meeting he'd ever been in.

Probably the only road map to peace would be to lock the Israelis and relevant surrounding Arab countries in a room, along with the 5 UN security council members and hammer out a deal. But due to various self interests that ain't going to happen.

Worth remembering that much of the Land on which Israel was built was bought fair and square from the Palestinians

Worth remembering that a whole lot more of it wasn't.

No, it was ceded in battle after unsuccessful attempts at wholeescale ethnic cleansing of the Jews by the surrounding arab states.

edit:

@ Junky - go on then.... or are we witnessing another Junkyardtastic history fail?

"Probably the only road map to peace would be to lock the Israelis and relevant surrounding Arab countries in a room, along with the 5 UN security council members and hammer out a deal. But due to various self interests that ain't going to happen."

Or for both sides to stop any kind of violent act immediately and permanently and sort out the details of a deal afterwards at their leisure. That ain't gonna happen either.