[Closed] justice: FAIL

Well he clearly went beyond the bounds of "reasonable force"

If I was taken hostage and handcuffed by a criminal I'd feel fairly strongly that my life was in danger.

Seems that would've been a better approach. It should have been prison for thief and slap on the wrists for the victim of the original crime.

Although it *could* be argued that giving the scumbag a good shoeing was wrong, no-one knows what he had threatened to do to the guy's family. I'm pretty sure that if someone tied up my loved ones I'd be right pissed off and would probably hit first and think later.

Fantastic.

I think I need to know if he picked up the metal pole after the cricket bat broke, or was he battering him with both the cricket bat and metal pole simultaneously before I pass judgement 😉

Clearly he'd get bonus points for using both simultaneously!

The man's a star. It's an epic FAIL for sure.

Justice failed long before that incident, that serial scummer should never have been out on the streets.

That said, I it looks like Mr Hussain went a little way past protecting himself/family/possessions and tread on the toes of our nationalised justice industry.

I actually agree with a lawyer

The court was unable to sentence Walid Salem with sufficient harshness, or Munir and Tokeer Hussain with sufficient compassion.

"It's difficult to believe that this outcome reflects the thinking of the public, or the interests of justice

He did overstep the mark with the beating but many others would have as well. However breaking a cricket bat on his head and fracturing his skull is probably a bit harsh.

I dunno
You can use reasonable force + a bit if nobody [who matters] is looking but you need to draw a line somewhere

Should have used the old police defence 'He fell down both flights of steps in the bungalow while trying to escape M'Lord'

I dont doubt everyone feels that he went too far - but perhaps the measure of reasonable force or even an allowance for incitement should come into the calculation.

The sad fact is that the original crime incited someone with no prior criminal intent to carry out what was considered by the court to be an even greater crime. The escalation may be the householder's fault, but the initiation was the mugger's and that ought to be considered a defence not only of property defence but also, to some degree protection beyond "reasonable force".

I agree with the lawyer, if the scum knew that he was likely to get a kicking for his actions maybe he would have thought twice about tieing his family up.

Maybe he thought he was unlikely to get a kicking as the justice system will protect him; which is appears to have done.

Its wrong on every level the fact he used more than reasonable force is not in question.

Stoner - why should you be entitled to use more than "reasonable force"?

He has got a reasonably short sentence for an assault of that severity so I think the provocation ( not incitement) was taken into account. Indeed he could have been charged with attempted murder

However It does seem harsh on the surface - a tinge of racism perhaps? Maybe a suspended sentace could have been managed.

However we have professional judiciary and I trust them to make fair decisions based on the facts - which none of us know

This isn't going to stop anyone doing the same is it? I'll still fight back as well as I am able if I ever get in a similar situation and if my family has been threatened I'm liable to go in a little harder that is absolutely necessary. I'll worry about the court proceedings once I no longer feel under threat.

Like this chap, he's only dangerous to people who threaten his family with knives and tie them up, everyone else is perfectly safe. The severity of the scentence has done nothing but inflame the media and will no doubt simply victimise someone who is presumably normally a law abiding person.

I don't like the very light sentence for the armed robber, but I'm pretty sympathetic to the sentence for the cricket-bat-breaking-on-skull revenge attack.

It's hard to get the full context from the article, but it sounds as though he was beyond self-defence, nevermind being way beyond reasonable force. I don't like these sorts of stories. Every day, ordinary, decent people beat up thieves, muggers and those who dish out casual unprovoked violence. The overwhelming majority of them are not prosecuted. This guy appears to have gone completely beserk, nearly killed someone and was prosecuted. He is the exception, not the rule. 🙂

However we have professional judiciary and I trust them to make fair decisions based on the facts

Saving that one for the next time you talk about miscarriages of justice 😉

Is there not some way of using the newly redundant X factor phone system to check whether or not these cases reflect the thinking of the public? 😉

The thing is, if the "victim" was dealt with by the "justice system" he'd probably be out on the streets doing the same in no time, confident that he'd be unlikely to do time. The defendant went a bit too far but quite honestly, if you tie people's families up etc you deserve everything that is coming your way.

provocation ( not incitement)

Quite right. Brain stall this morning.

Im trying to emphasise the point that Samuri made a lot better than I managed. Namely that "wider" society is not at risk from the instantly provoked attack - even if it goes beyond reasonable defence along the way. Id almost suggest that the mugger doesnt deserve any defence in law from whatever the home owner dishes out (short of murder). Maybe have manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility as the highest available sanction 😉

Junkyard - Member

However we have professional judiciary and I trust them to make fair decisions based on the facts

Saving that one for the next time you talk about miscarriages of justice

Fail. amateur juries decide on guilt or innocence. Professional judiciary decide on sentence.

Not he same thing as a miscarriage of justice. This chaps guilt is not in doubt - its the amount of punishment he has received that is being questioned.

I'm sure that everybody on this forum would like to say that they would stay in "control" given the situation. But would they?????

There but for the grace of god eh.

Personally, I don't know that if I was in that position as too whether I could have used just enough force, or go too far

One cause of miscarriages can be misdirection of a jury by a judge during trial feel but can we stay OT?

A gang of men chased one man down the road and beat him with a cricket bat, metal pole and hockey stick until he was left with permanent brain damage. Whatever had happened before, thats not self defence or justified, its mob vigilantism.

Lots of papers seem to be focusing on the fact the robber didn't get a prison sentance, and missing the point that he couldn't be given one because of the injuries he recieved.

Makes us all a lot less safe if burglars think that they can't be harmed by the people they are burgling. Welcome to Britain.

I'm sure that everybody on this forum would like to say that they would stay in "control" given the situation. But would they?????

last time i checked 'not being in control' didn't get many perpetrators of violent crime off the hook

I don't like the very light sentence for the armed robber, but I'm pretty sympathetic to the sentence for the cricket-bat-breaking-on-skull revenge attack.

It's hard to get the full context from the article, but it sounds as though he was beyond self-defence, nevermind being way beyond reasonable force. I don't like these sorts of stories. Every day, ordinary, decent people beat up thieves, muggers and those who dish out casual unprovoked violence. The overwhelming majority of them are not prosecuted. This guy appears to have gone completely beserk, nearly killed someone and was prosecuted. He is the exception, not the rule.

+1 to this really, sounds like the threat had passed. Does seem to suck the intruder didn't get a sentence but not sure what to make of the "not fit to plead" bit of the article- if that's because of his injuries it muddies the waters a bit.

He should have called the plod first, and then given him a minor kicking, before getting a 'friend' to really do him over, later - so he wouldn't get the blame.

Although you have to wonder how he made his millions, and maybe there is something we don't know...

What he did was wrong but I don't think he should have got a custodial sentence.

Would we have been more accepting if he'd done it with a set of bombers?

When hitting someone with a cricket bat I imagine it's difficult to get a feel for reasonable force, you don't want them to get up and start hitting you back so make sure your first strike is effective. I imagine you just swing as hard as you can, pretty certain that's what I'd do.

I think you'd get an idea of how hard you were hitting the blokes head when the bat broke.. 🙂

Elevate the men to hero status! Got everything he deserved.

I'll worry about the court proceedings once I no longer feel under threat.

That's exactly how I feel to about the situation.

So you think a bit of vigilante justice is OK?

What about necklacing? Kneecapping?

TBH bashing him on the head is excessive, there are plenty of other parts of the body to aim at that would cause mucho pain/injury, ensure he wouldn't do it again and not get you sent away for breaking his skull. He must have ****ted him pretty hard to break the bat in three.

There is a line to be drawn over which you can't step but if you have totally lost it how rational can you be?

Although you have to wonder how he made his millions, and maybe there is something we don't know...

er, maybe he was just a successful business man?!

what struck me is that the original criminal, the one who TIED UP A FAMILY AT KNIFE POINT was free to walk the streets with 50odd previous criminal convictions...!

WTF is someone who is CLEARLY a danger to society doing being allowed out free!?
i just don't get it.

perhaps the actions of his victim will now make him reconsider any future criminal activities.

imo someone with 50 criminal convictions has nothing AT ALL to add to society, and is a pretty worthless human being.

*awaits TJesq responses blaming society for a grown man's actions*

oh, and fair play to the victim for breaking a cricket bat!!
(but i do agree that a prison sentence is perhaps neccessary for the victim in this case, its only fair i guess)

imho the judge got it right. There is no comparison to the Tony Martin case since he lay a trap for the intruder(s). The guy was [i]probably[/i] subdued and no longer of a threat and they just gave him some street justice.

Mind you, when the SAS took out the perpetrators of the Iranian embassy siege, they executed them (armed or unarmed) and even tried to take one back indoors for execution. It was only the news helicopter above that saved him.

Yeah, easy to condemn the bloke for going too far but hard to know how you'd react in reality.

My wife was held up at knife point a few years back. Considering he got caught and no one got hurt, we're both glad I wasn't there at the time. Not because I'm some hard nut psycho (ho ho, believe me I'm so not), but you never know how you're going to react in that situation. I'd have probably got a good stabbing for my efforts no doubt.

I'm pretty sure the fear and rage was still kicking at high volume when he was dealing out the pain and stopping to question "am I over doing this?" probably doesn't factor.

I'd have been in favour of a suspended sentence myself.

A few years back Duncan Ferguson, former Dundee United and Rangers (playing for Everton at the time IIRC) footballer and arch thug who had already served time for assault. [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2748887.stm ]surprised a burglar and gave him a bit of a slap, resulting in a trip to hospital[/url]. Drunken Duncan as he was known hereabouts was not prosecuted.
He is however, white.

hungry monkey - Premier Member

*awaits TJesq responses blaming society for a grown man's actions*

I have never said that thank you very much.

wait a minute, beyond reasonable force? **** that, someone holds you hostage in your own home (and i'm sure there would have been many a threat banded around) get some rough justice and he's the victim.

If you break into someones house then the owner hould have the right to defend themselves, ****ers lucky he's not kneecapped or dead.

Say what you like but the americans have got it right, someone breaks into your home and you can shoot them

May seem extreme, but i would get the first heavy object i could get my hands on and beat that scum until i got bored, and that takes a long time

BBSB

there is a difference between one person hitting someone with their hands and several people dishing out a sustained beating with weapons that leaves someone brain damaged

Got to laugh at this place. One day there is a thread about the supposed dangers of Sharia law ("they'll chop yer 'and off y'know"), and the next we're condoning vigilante mob beatings.

Would it have been okay if they had stoned him instead of using a cricket bat?

The guy clearly stepped quite a long way over a "reasonable and proportional use of force".

note the 'esq' TJ... just waiting for some namby pamby liberal to come along saying that he just hasn't had the same opportunities, and that prison is bad, and that we should educate etc etc etc 😉

however, some people are just a waste of space.

He was clearly trying to flee when he was cornered and beaten by two men with weapons.

Their mistake is NOT placing a knife in the c*nts hand before the cops arrived.

Say what you like but the americans have got it right, someone breaks into your home and you can shoot them

True that! That's why there is virtually no violent crime in America. 🙄

A gang of men chased one man down the road and beat him with a cricket bat, metal pole and hockey stick until he was left with permanent brain damage. Whatever had happened before, thats not self defence or justified, its mob vigilantism.

Lots of papers seem to be focusing on the fact the robber didn't get a prison sentance, and missing the point that he couldn't be given one because of the injuries he recieved.

This.

It's unfortunate all round but the court has to send a message that vigilantism isn't acceptable.

These chaps beat a guy half to death. Vigilantly justice is the last thing we need to encourage. 🙄

when the SAS took out the perpetrators of the Iranian embassy siege, they executed them (armed or unarmed) and even tried to take one back indoors for execution. It was only the news helicopter above that saved him.

Everyone knows there are "licence to kill warrants" under the cairn on top of Pen-y-Fan which make you immune from prosecution. 😉

[i]there is a difference between one person hitting someone with their hands and several people dishing out a sustained beating with weapons that leaves someone brain damaged [/i]

..or a beating dished out by a professional athlete with a criminal record for violence and retaliation by the family of a middle aged man who has been held at knife point.
And as I pointed out a little bit of skin pigment can make a world of difference.

I did wonder that to BBSB - however there is still a major difference between one person using their hands and a group of people with weapons.

I did think Ferguson should have got more of a sentence at the time

a little bit of skin pigment can make a world of difference

ffs 🙄

So all judges are white racists, I do love STW.

 

Enfit - who said that - although it is true that non whites get harsher sentacing for the same crimes.

However it would seem reasonable to wonder if racism had played a part in this.

I'm glad the guy is locked up, what kind of lunatic chases after someone with an bar and a bat when his family have just been tramatised by a kidnapping and mugging? He should have stayed with them and made sure they were ok, and waited for the police and ambulance to arrive. The irony is that his actions may well have contributed to one of the thieves not getting a custodial sentence and possibly spending the rest of his life on disability benefit.

As for the rest of you advocating what he should have done (put a knife in his hand etc) and sharing your violent wet dreams on here about what you'd do in a similar situation, calm down, take a deep breath and go for a ride, it'll help make the voices go away for a bit.

Obviously I was wrong, it seems he's a proper businessman

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Hussain_Munir_291785713.aspx

Still surprised that he got that kind of sentence if there were no other 'issues' that the police/judge knew.

Where's Batman at times like these?

The thing is, the guy who held up the family at knife point HASN'T got away scott free, he took a serious beating. If you factor in the vigilante justice as part of the sentencing then it's easier to see why the judge wouldn't pass a further sentence.

However the guy who dished out the beating did it of his own free will, admittedly provoked, but still, beating someone up is against the law and should be punished.

That's how I think the law works (or has done in this instance). The fact that I'm also firmly in the camp of burglars/intruders leaving their human rights at the door when they break into my house is beside the point.

yea, they probably got it right.

IF he'd come home to find his family tied up and an armed man thretening them, then stoving the back of his head in would probably have been reasnoble force, I'd follow that sentiment as fas as killing him. As they'd chased him out the house, anything more than aprehension was unsreasnoble force. But thats not to say I wouldn't have left him in an even wose state.

can we get the title at the top of my IE changed to "stw - home of the Daily Express reading hard man"

FFS, you losers!

A few years back Duncan Ferguson, former Dundee United and Rangers (playing for Everton at the time IIRC) footballer and arch thug who had already served time for assault. surprised a burglar and gave him a bit of a slap, resulting in a trip to hospital. Drunken Duncan as he was known hereabouts was not prosecuted.
He is however, white.

Don't know whats more staggering, that you can't see the difference between one man attacking someone in his own home with his fists and four men chasing a man down and beating him with weapons until he's brain damaged, or that you instantly assume its because of race..

I would bet my bike there's a vast proportion of us who are delighted that the burglar got a severe thrashing. As Padowan pointed out above, he hardly got away scott-free for his crimes. If his brain recovers enough to mull over this incident I'll bet he wishes he never broke into that house and I'm guessing he may not offend again anytime soon. A good result.

As for the defendants I applaud the principle but it does sound like they went a step (or two) too far. But then sometimes don't the "goodies" have to be prepared to go one step further than the "baddies"?

I think the courts got this one right.

TBH bashing him on the head is excessive, there are plenty of other parts of the body to aim at that would cause mucho pain/injury, ensure he wouldn't do it again

yeah, like smacking him in the crotch till his balls were mashed. or the back of the neck. or a chelsea smile - Zack!

if someone done that to my family i'd probably kill them. i've got a bit of a temper at times.

i think the original victim's biggest mistake was being seen/caught with the cricket bat. like i said in the first post, i'd get the guy taken away sharpish and then dump the c*nt somewhere remote and hope that he dies.

If somebody has just tied you and your family up, and you manage to get free, I think it's entirely reasonable to make sure the guy who did it is immobilised so he can't come straight back and do some more harm.

I think what might happen if somebody threatened me with a knife or gun, and I managed to disarm him. At that point I would have the weapon and he would be very very angry and scared.

I would put money on him being a better fighter than me, so the likelihood is that he would get the weapon back and use it. So the only safe course for me would be to render him powerless.

Isn't this thread redundant as the judge pre-empted it in his summing up?

"It may be that some members of the public, or media commentators, will assert that the man Salem deserved what happened to him ... and that you should not have been prosecuted and need not be punished,” he said.

"However, if persons were permitted to take the law into their own hands and inflict their own instant and violent punishment on an apprehended offender rather than letting justice take its course, then the rule of law and our system of criminal justice, which are the hallmarks of a civilised society, would collapse."

lol at all the internet hard men on here 🙄

Never realised middle aged software developers/cycling enthusiasts were such tough guys before.

Lets face it grumm it'll turn into a fight-club website shortly...

i'd probably kill them

😯

i think the original victim's biggest mistake was being seen/caught with the cricket bat. like i said in the first post, i'd get the guy taken away sharpish and then dump the c*nt somewhere remote and hope that he dies.

Then get done for kidnapping and attempted murder? 🙄

I think all the keyboard ninjas need to chill out and go for a ride.

Having given the matter further consideration the judge's comments about vigilantes is pretty spot on. I am sure pretty much 100% of us on here are decent folk but if vigilantes were given the green light, who would draw the line between living (on the whole) safely in our homes or living in perpetual fear that some thug, backed up by partial "witnesses" might not concoct some cock and bull story to justify attacks on anyone? Sort of sounds like anarchy to me.

I believe the outrage people feel and the ambivalence felt about the sentencing comes down to a perceived failure of the Law to deliver justice, whatever that may be. So, first of all work out what justice is, decide how it would further society then design an appropriate punishment. If the judge felt the chap should go to prison even in part, because not imposing a custodial sentence would/could give a green light to less desirable people to take the force of Law into their own hands then the sentence is right.

The defendant may not have had time to sit back or rationalise about his actions, for obvious reasons, but we, as truly disinterested parties, can. The fact that we can consider the action, the cause and the implications of our decisions, mean that we can live in a relatively civilised society.

Meanwhile, I have been held at knife point. I was not robbed, I was not stabbed but in a fit of misjudged bravado I took the knife off the bloke. When he had gone I was more relieved than anything else. I felt sick, weak at the knees and just glad it was over. All I wanted to do was sit down. I certainly wasn't going to go running after him. Adrenaline I guess but it didn't make me half kill the bloke.

I fail to see the Justice Failure in this case , is it that courts of law don't live up to some peoples Death Wish fantasies?
The Robber with previous for we know not what was hunted down in the street and battered to the point where he can not follow what goes on around him,can't understand simple concepts and can't give instructions in his own interests. That is what being unfit to plead means. It took a group armed with wepons some effort to do that . No matter what the provocation they are clearly evil vengeful scum who rightly belong in prison . Imagine what they would do to you in a parking dispute or road rage incident.
The Robber is equally an evil sh!t and should by rights be in prison for a long time as no doubt he would be but for the Brain Dammage.

The quote from the Judge appears spot on "However, if persons were permitted to take the law into their own hands and inflict their own instant and violent punishment on an apprehended offender rather than letting justice take its course, then the rule of law and our system of criminal justice, which are the hallmarks of a civilised society, would collapse."

I think the guy's lucky he wasn't in the states!He'd probably have a lump of lead in him instead of brain damage!

cricket bat braking into 3 bits , cheap crap bats.

i sometimes struggle to sleep at night, worrying about all the helpless misunderstood bad guys out there.

they all need a hug, it's so unfair.

(i cannot manage to raise even the slightest sympathy for salem)

Weird reading all this. I have met Munir a couple of times and was pretty much amazed when this first happened.

I've got no sympathy for Salem but comparing his sentence with the other 2 is absolute nonsense- he got that sentence (as people have tried to point out in this thread, but seemingly without any success) because the brain damage he suffered left him unable to plead, and so unable to be tried and sentenced normally. If they'd not left him brain damaged, he would have been able to plead and would have been sentenced differently.

The judge summed it up well: "The prosecution made it plain that there was no allegation against you, Munir Hussain, in respect of the force you used defending your family."

That's what a father should do and the right thing too - Protecting his family first. Whatever comes later is irrelevant.

As for the robber his luck finally runs out and deserves what he gets.

When I first read this I thought that exceeds reasonable force.

After thinking about it overnight, I have changed my mind. The criminal attacked this guy's family. If he got away then he or his associates were likely to try again and probably with more force the next time.

So now if anyone is raising a collection to buy him a new cricket bat, I'm in.

[i] Nick - Member

I'm glad the guy is locked up, what kind of lunatic chases after someone with an bar and a bat when his family have just been tramatised by a kidnapping and mugging? He should have stayed with them and made sure they were ok, and waited for the police and ambulance to arrive. The irony is that his actions may well have contributed to one of the thieves not getting a custodial sentence and possibly spending the rest of his life on disability benefit.

As for the rest of you advocating what he should have done (put a knife in his hand etc) and sharing your violent wet dreams on here about what you'd do in a similar situation, calm down, take a deep breath and go for a ride, it'll help make the voices go away for a bit. [/i]

Applause. Spot on.

youve got to ask yourself . what would chuck norris do ? 😉

I had to laugh.

What did he hit him with? One of those 99p Tesco's bat & ball sets?

He obviously didn't smack him with a Gray-Nicholls finest. You could probably knock a house down with one of those before it broke 🙂

" he was struck with a cricket bat so hard that it broke into three pieces."

What is wrong with the UK? You used to make really good cricket bats, where did it all go wrong?
- keith, Beziers, France, 14/12/2009 19:20

Nick - Member

I'm glad the guy is locked up, what kind of lunatic chases after someone with an bar and a bat when his family have just been tramatised by a kidnapping and mugging? He should have stayed with them and made sure they were ok, and waited for the police and ambulance to arrive. The irony is that his actions may well have contributed to one of the thieves not getting a custodial sentence and possibly spending the rest of his life on disability benefit.

As for the rest of you advocating what he should have done (put a knife in his hand etc) and sharing your violent wet dreams on here about what you'd do in a similar situation, calm down, take a deep breath and go for a ride, it'll help make the voices go away for a bit.

+1

[b]Thread closed[/b]

Whilst i have no sympathy for the burglar, i do feel that the brothers were handing out retribution, not self defence and in that respect i think they went OTT.
The family were in a position of perial when held captive, but the guy escaped. Hence it cannot be argued that the beating they dished out was self defence, as they were not in peril by that point.
At what point is pumelling someones head in judged to be acceptable and resonable?
Nothing is black an white, but i can see where the judge is coming from. Without laws, where does it end?

Nothing is black an white

<ahem> IGMC

lol @ BBSB

ahwiles - Member

(i cannot manage to raise even the slightest sympathy for salem)

rascist.