[Closed] Jordanian pilot - sensible debate thread

binners - Member
Curses! I agree with the Wopster! I hate it when that happens.

To say that this is nothing to do with Islam is preposterous, and is counter-productive as it immediately hobbles the discussion. It is everything to do with Islam.

The central tenet of the IS ideology is that the more liberal (everything's relative Eh?) westernised form of Islam is actually a perversion of the faith. And that their hardline interpretation is the One True Path. So they regard Musilms who practice anything short of their zealotry, as as anti-Islamic as U.S. infidels.

What we're dealing with is fascism. But it is specifically it is Islamic facsism

So to say that 'it has nothing to do with Islam' is just plain stupid! Any answers, or solutions' surely have to come from within the Islamic community itself, surely?

There is a shitload of finance behind IS, take away the finance and IS crumble.

I agree it's fascism, I disagree it's particularly Islamic fundamentally though(it is a tool being used aye, but it's not fundamental to destoying the ideology), as with everything in the world, power, control and money take centre stage.

If you want to defeat them, follow the money and cut that short, but there will be so many dodgy fingers in that pie I doubt it's likely.

It is about religion at its worst and at this moment in time in Iraq that religion happens to be Islam that is being used in this way. It is not fundentally due to Islam itself as I see it no differently from any other religion.
It's people choosing to use its influence to the gain.

Something that has happened since the start of time.
Proportioning any blame to Islam risks isolating good people of that faith and even driving angry young men towards twisted ideology.

To me its religion at its worst being manipulated by bad people.

Agreed. It's all about power and control. Religion is just a means to an end. But you're not going to make any progress by simply saying it's nothing to do with it. It is!

chip - Member
It is about religion at its worst and at this moment in time in Iraq that religion happens to be Islam that is being used in this way. It is not fundentally due to Islam as I see it no differently from any religion.
It m

binners - Member
Agreed. It's all about power and control. Religion is just a means to an end. But you're not going to make any progress by simply saying it's nothing to do with it. It is!

Lifer - Member

chewkw - Member
In the case of N.Korea, that Christian ideology was wiped out in that land

Not going to hold my breathe, but any evidence that it was wiped out?

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4431321.stm ]Ya, your BBC sop opera here ... [/url]

"But many Christian analysts believe that churches in North Korea are merely propaganda fronts aimed primarily at appeasing a foreign audience. " (BBC, ya, I know you will disagree etc ...)

Oh ya ... Christianity was already in N. Korea since 1781 (something like that) but somehow never taken off big time I wonder why.

Religion is the tool, you can't blame a tool but those who wield it.

I don't disagree with that article at all, but it doesn't for a moment suggest that Christianity 'was wiped out in that land'.

@chip, well said (right / wrong post)

@pimpmaster, yes it was noted earlier that Jordan had proof (blog post from a known IS member) that the pilot was burnt to death at the start of Jan. I don't think Abu Qatada was mentioned, there we had a situation where he might be tried based on evidence obtained through torture. Until we could have a legally binding assurance that that wouldn't happen and we changed our law he was able to stay. Jordan has had a chequered human rights record and was recently critisied as it will not accept Palastinain refugees from Syria but we (you) are trying to judge them by our liberal Western standards and the Middle East doesn't work on that basis.

What on earth prompts anyone on here to actively seek out a video they know will show another human, being burnt alive?
You'll be knitting next to the gallows next.

My thoughts exactly!

Knitting or catching?

Lifer - Member

I don't disagree with that article at all, but it doesn't for a moment suggest that Christianity 'was wiped out in that land'.

If that is not a wipe out I don't know what is.

Anyway, need to work now or I would be kicked in the backside ... arrghhh ... someone is till wrong on the interweb ... arrghhh ... 😆

Will debate later ...

quick edit:

chip - Member

Religion is the tool, you can't blame a tool but those who wield it.

There you go Lifer ... ^^^. Get rid of the people and you are left with a book.

someone is till wrong on the interweb

Not for long if you'll go and do some work 😉

Wipe out means ceased to exist.

There is no evidence in that article that Christianity, or other ideologies, have ceased to exist in North Korea. It says the churches are just propaganda, but my previous link makes it clear that it is practised in private anyway, so churches are inconsequential to that.

chewkw - Member

"chip - Member
Religion is the tool, you can't blame a tool but those who wield it."

There you go Lifer ... ^^^. Get rid of the people and you are left with a book.

Eh? What does that mean? Who's been got rid of?

What were the terror tactics the Spanish used, duckman? And how is that relevant to fighting IS

I didn't say they did...quote away though,Chewkw has obviously touched a raw nerve.

Not at all, I just (mis)read a cropped quote on page 3 rather than your full post on page 2, apologies.

And was in full swing 😳

ISIS/ISIL or whatever they're called this week are sub human, I suggest the authorities treat them as such.

I'm happy for this government (frankly any government will do) to flatten the regions ISIL/ISIS control, good riddance to a region that is by and large a shithole.

....and aid workers, contractors, journalists etc need to stop going over there!....don't put yourself in the firing line when this group of sadistic bastards are in charge.

An absence of foreigners in their country means they'll have to turn their attention to their own people....and frankly I couldn't care less if they want to butcher each other.

deviant - Member

I'm happy for this government (frankly any government will do) to flatten the regions ISIL/ISIS control, good riddance to a region that is by and large a shithole.

Nice to you see you promoting genocide. Or you just classing everyone in IS controlled areas as an enemy combatant?

Not fussed either way, the region needs to be taken back to square one and start again....it's beyond help.

If you want a slightly more 'humane' way of doing it just abandon the region economically, no aid, no trade, pull up the drawbridge and watch the area wither away slowly instead....agree with the media blackout idea too, don't mention them, ban their propaganda from Twitter, don't show pictures or videos etc, make the region and representatives from the organisation 'persona non grata'....they'd have too much to sort out at home to worry about 'the west' (hopefully) and would certainly have to rethink their approach to publicising their campaign if they effectively didn't have any publicity any more.

Either way, f##k 'em.

An absence of foreigners in their country means they'll have to turn their attention to their own people....and frankly I couldn't care less if they want to butcher each other.

@deviant, if we pulled out the Russians and Chineese would step in to fill the economic void and gain political influence there. Not really constructive for the West.

deviant - Member
Not fussed either way, the region needs to be taken back to square one and start again....it's beyond help.

If you want a slightly more 'humane' way of doing it just abandon the region economically, no aid, no trade, pull up the drawbridge and watch the area wither away slowly instead....agree with the media blackout idea too, don't mention them, ban their propaganda from Twitter, don't show pictures or videos etc, make the region and representatives from the organisation 'persona non grata'....they'd have too much to sort out at home to worry about 'the west' (hopefully) and would certainly have to rethink their approach to publicising their campaign if they effectively didn't have any publicity any more.

Either way, f##k 'em.

An absence of foreigners in their country means they'll have to turn their attention to their own people....and frankly I couldn't care less if they want to butcher each other.

The problem there is these areas are not wholly submitted to IS / Sharia law. Most living there are innocents in a terrible place. Do you abandon them too?

There's also the political vacuum that destroying them would create. It's a holy hotpot. There would be massive scraps to fill it.

jambalaya - Member
@deviant, if we pulled out the Russians and Chineese would step in to fill the economic void and gain political influence there. Not really constructive for the West.

and we wonder why the place is a shit storm! 😆

deviant - Member

Not fussed either way, the region needs to be taken back to square one and start again....it's beyond help.

If you want a slightly more 'humane' way of doing it just abandon the region economically, no aid, no trade, pull up the drawbridge and watch the area wither away slowly instead....agree with the media blackout idea too, don't mention them, ban their propaganda from Twitter, don't show pictures or videos etc, make the region and representatives from the organisation 'persona non grata'....they'd have too much to sort out at home to worry about 'the west' (hopefully) and would certainly have to rethink their approach to publicising their campaign if they effectively didn't have any publicity any more.

Either way, f##k 'em.

The only part of that entire post I agree with is **** em. But the rest of your post and the one before is just staggeringly stupid/ignorant and shows a complete lack of understanding of how the world works. You might as well have written

deviant - Member

I saw these guys on the news, the news said they are bad so I don't like em. Let's drop bombs on them. My mate Barry down the pub knows some stuff, he says we should nuke the whole middle east and take their stuff.

f##k 'em.

binners - Member
Curses! I agree with the Wopster! I hate it when that happens.

[img] [/img]

I think STW shows the great resilience of humanity where amongst a discussion on the murder of a fellow human by fire we can start kissing each other

Why do some locals call IS dash?
Bloke on R4 this morning repeatly used that term.

Deviant;One of the reasons that air strikes have taken So long to have an effect is because they are embedded right next to the schools,residential areas etc,people who didn't really ask for IS to take their area over. So what is your plan B?

Ok first read this [url= http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/02/03/how-to-win-the-war-against-extremism-in-one-very-difficult-step/ ]point of view[/url]

Then consider that the best way to destroy IS and their Caliphate is just to hem them in, ensure they can't get supplies in and leave them to it... why? Because:
> the farmers have only managed to sow 30% of their normal crops
> they may have oil wells but can't refine it in bulk
> low oil prices mean the bottom has dropped out of the black market for oil

So currently they have no money, soon they will have no food. Attacking them (and looking at their social media information) just fuels their extremist narrative.

At the same time the ruling classes need to take a long hard look at whether their wealth is trickling down to the masses.

jambalaya - Member
I think STW shows the great resilience of humanity where amongst a discussion on the murder of a fellow human by fire we can start kissing each other

😆

I wouldn't touch you with a bargepole.

Why do some locals call IS dash?
Bloke on R4 this morning repeatly used that term.

@DaRC - you cannot hem in the whole of Syria and what about the millions of innocent people who are caught in the middle of what 50,000 ISIS fighters ?

duckman, there is no plan-B....civilians are classed as collateral damage in instances such as this I believe.

I know no more or less than anybody else in this thread, everybody in here is getting 2nd hand information from TV news, Internet sites, radio news and published news....really unless we have some genuine Middle East experts in this forum who have worked or lived there then everybody is getting their information from the same sources....but it doesn't stop some posters desperately trying to come over as more high-brow or informed than the next wannabe expert.

I'm happy to acknowledge my lack of expertise on the region.

It doesn't change the fact that I'd still happily see a government acting on my behalf flatten the area, its inhabitants (innocent or otherwise) and treat the area afterwards as the worlds largest landfill site.

Insane.

So currently they have no money...

Assuming that rich arabs stop funding them too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11052919/How-Isil-is-funded-trained-and-operating-in-Iraq-and-Syria.html

"During the war in Afghanistan, Saudi supporters could donate money directly at their mosque with no government supervision."

It doesn't change the fact that I'd still happily see a government acting on my behalf flatten the area, its inhabitants (innocent or otherwise) and treat the area afterwards as the worlds largest landfill site.

Stalin - your cab's here.

deviant - Member
but it doesn't stop some posters desperately trying to come over as more high-brow or informed than the next wannabe expert.
.

not advocating genocide is not hi brow! 😆

Lifer - Member

[s]Insane.[/s] Retarded or trolling

Fixed.

DaRC_L - Member

> they may have oil wells but can't refine it in bulk
> low oil prices mean the bottom has dropped out of the black market for oil

So currently they have no money, soon they will have no food. Attacking them (and looking at their social media information) just fuels their extremist narrative.

According to the Brooking report linked earlier in the thread, IS are making $2 million a week smuggling oil from Iraq and Syria, and are worth approximately $2 billion.

Unfortunately funding doesn't seem to be an issue for them.

"No money"

ISIL where widely rumoured to have been selling oil on the black market through / to Turks, that has stopped/slowed down from what I read.

When they took over Mosul the central bank allegedly had close to $1bn in cash.

jambalaya - Member
The Arabs invaded Europe and got as far as Tours in central France before being repelled. I have no doubt ISIS would dream of a re-run.

That's a bit disingenuous as Europe and France didn't exist, and the Umayyad's didn't stay above the Pyrenees during the winter or found any towns. It was more raiding parties interested in money, it's thought they were heading towards Tours because of the wealth of the cathedral.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03pm7dv ]In Our Time - Battle of Tours[/url]

explains it well.

deviant
ISIS/ISIL or whatever they're called this week are sub human, I suggest the authorities treat them as such.

-

you cannot hem in the whole of Syria and what about the millions of innocent people who are caught in the middle of what 50,000 ISIS fighters ?

AS to the millions of innocents some will be supporters and some will be ex-supporters of IS. Barring on the ground military action, which for IMO is worse than pointless if it involves western troops, by limiting IS access (i.e. as much as possible) to munitions, money and food then (hopefully) IS will be torn apart. Or the millions of innocents who must outnumber IS will tear them apart.

To my mind, like Afghanistan (and to an extent NI), fighting extremism cannot be done with outside force. It has to be an internal change.

All the time the liberal west is meddling it fuels the fundamentalist message.