[Closed] Jordanian pilot - sensible debate thread

chip - Member
If it was irrelevant IS would not be doing it.

Honestly, I don't understand the significance of the method of death, if we are going to play that game we will be here all day. It's war, it's brutal. I'm sure the jordanian pilot firing off rockets from 20,000ft is discriminate and humane.

Murder is murder.

chip - Member
And the woman was part of a bunch of terrorists who killed 60 people in a hotel bombing.

So, you are for the death penalty?

btw, to make it clear, I'm condemning both sides.

When I saw the news this morning about the execution of the failed bomber and film of angry Jordanians demonstrating, I thought - "Oh, so NOW you're upset?"

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/images-emerge-of-gay-man-thrown-from-building-by-isis-militants-before-he-is-stoned-to-death-after-surviving-fall-10019743.html ]Depravity[/url]

seosamh77

Honestly, I don't understand the significance of the method of death, if we are going to play that game we will be here all day. It's war, it's brutal. I'm sure the jordanian pilot firing off rockets from 20,000ft is discriminate and humane.

Murder is murder.

Their methods are calculated for maximum media impact. They could have just put a bullet in any of the people they've murdered on camera but that wouldn't be as sensational. They only have to decapitate or burn one person to set the worlds media alight.

Apparently the burning was a calculated move to antagonize the Jordanians. Presumably some middle eastern societies are somewhat desensitized to execution by decapitation.

i'd suggest an eye for an eye is the simplistic view here.

I cant get my head round this. Still cant.

wrecker - Member
i'd suggest an eye for an eye is the simplistic view here.

I agree, but that's not the difficult bit, which is that they had publicly stated that they would execute the prisoners if the pilot was killed.
They killed the pilot. Nowhere to go from there.

We'll agree to disagree.

So, you are for the death penalty?

For certain crimes, or criminals I would not shed a tear.
But would want no ceremony or glorification.
And would not want the procedure changed in anyway for these people as others have suggested but treated the same as everyone else.

chip - Member
So, you are for the death penalty?
For certain crimes, or criminals I would not shed a tear.
But would want no ceremony or glorification.
And would not want the procedure changed in anyway for these people as others have suggested but treated the same as everyone else.

We'll agree to disagree.

The big question for me is where does all of this end? Do we end reliance on oil and leave them to their own devices turning large swathes of the region into a no-go zone? Will that placate them? What about when they get their caliphate and decide they want to expand?

I'm anti-war, but that's when we're talking about government vs government, country vs country etc. This is an entirely different ball game. I can see this descending into a long and bloody war. Troubling times ahead.

Energy security is the only way. Which is why pouring money into the progress trap of fracking is so stupid, we should be aiming to lead the way in renewable technology.

If IS in its entirety could be rounded up and put in prison for the rest of there natural, I would be happy with that. But don't think that will happen.
IS left to murder and rape its way across Iraq and the levant unchecked or anywhere for that fact. Can't be allowed to happen.

IS are murderous thugs using their take on religion as an excuse for there actions.

What on earth prompts anyone on here to actively seek out a video they know will show another human, being burnt alive?
You'll be knitting next to the gallows next.

I watched it and in some ways regret doing so.

It wasn't out of some twisted desire to see another human die, but I felt compelled to see what happened, how the captors acted, try and discover what was motivating them and in doing so try and figure out in my mind why the hell anybody would do this.

I once had the opportunity to visit Buchenwald (Nazi concentration camp site) in East Germany. I knew before i went what the day would be like, what I would see and hear, that it would be incredibly depressing, but I still went as I felt that shutting out what happened was the wrong thing to do and that seeing and understanding was better. Weirdly, watching the IS video evokes similar emotions of despair and disbelief that humans could treat other humans in the way they did.

The wrought iron entrance gates to Buchenwald have an decorative arch above them which still survives, on it are the words 'Jedem Das Seine' or 'To each his own'. In some ways I can't help think there is a parallel between the Nazis and IS, in that it's their way or no way.

After viewing, my main emotion was sorrow and thinking how the Pilot's family would deal with such a thing happening.

My other emotion was anger and that the perpetrators have lost all sense of humanity and reasoning and the only way this would be solved would be by extreme military action against them.

The Iraqi woman suicide bomber probably wasn't a terrorist; she was probably forced, blackmailed or coerced into carrying the explosives.

Not difficult to wind up the Jordanians - our view of Jordan is coloured by the favourable impression that (I hope) we get from meeting Palestinian Jordanians; 70% of whom have a university degree and very many of whom are working in professional jobs outside Jordan. Meanwhile back in the Hashemite Kingdom, true Jordanians are a completely different kettle of fish - they dominate the armed forces and the government and are a deeply traditional, tribal society of people who I've always found a bit rough. I'm not surprised they chose revenge, even though in doing so they descended to the same moral level as the ISIS psychopaths.

If it's true that ISIS are funding themselves by selling oil, I can't understand why the coalition hasn't simply blown up the oil installations - or is there too much American investment at stake? There's also the small issue of the environmental damage it would cause.

Lifer - Member

Maybe you should read up on it before using it to back up you assertion. Smallpox reached the Incas before the Spanish. Also where the hell did you get your El Dorado theory from? The BBC soap?

Nope. I was just being "funny" with the term as I could easily use the term land of gold.

The Spanish would also have been massacred if they didn't have help from tens of thousands of native allies who were the Incan's enemies. Superiority of arms is a red herring.

I knew there is a possibility you were going to argue that the Spanish had some sort of help from other tribes. The bottom line is that without their weapons they could not progress as they were. In the end, the Incas ideology was wiped out ... with the help of their own people, disease, weapons and the nature. Most importantly the Spanish played a bit part in quicker their demise using weapons.

Slightly different in topic ... I bet you are now going to say slavery in Africa is their own doing isn't it? Bear in mind, there are many different tribes in Africa where some would enslave the others or help out the slave merchants to enslave others.

Oh, if you're sure. You know, with your obvious grasp of history you've already shown.

Most obviously your opinion is weapon cannot destroy an ideology which I disagree. For example, any nation with a single ideology is simply that. North Korea for example has one single ideology whether it is a form of communism or the cult of worshiping dear leader your choice. Yes, they will shoot you or "rehabilitate" you if you decide to go against their prevailing ideology.

What were the terror tactics the Spanish used, duckman? And how is that relevant to fighting IS?

It is similar in the way that the one that prevails will win. In this case the Spanish with their advantage in weapon technology.

The Incas are not similar in anyway. It was a 40 year war of genocide against a population weakened by disease with the purpose of conquest.

Weakened by disease did not wipe their ideology out but weapon and converting the people did.

I think you are being to idealistic about reality.

I watched it and in some ways regret doing so.

I just couldn't do that. I'm not judging you in anyway. I simply wouldn't want that imprinted in my memories for life.

Once on liveleak I was watching some vids (parquer of however you spell it), grazing then below it suggested another from Vietnam of a Policeman. I clicked watched and carried on. I've never wanted to watch anything remotely like that since.

What will happen now. ie with Jordan? Will they ramp up their involvement/be attacked etc?

El Dorado was completely seperate from the conquest of the Incas FFS. That was my point.

Lifer - Member

El Dorado was completely seperate from the conquest of the Incas FFS. That was my point.

FFS I was referring to the "land of gold" or the conquest of new land in the name of the Spanish King in those days. It was just a "funny" term.

🙄

Bull. And it was the Queen of Spain who ordered/allowed the conquest of the Incans in the name of Spain.

Lifer - Member

Bull.

Explain your views on North Korea if you think otherwise. What say you?

Weapon can kill off ideology, I win. Yes? 😆

Very simple, ideology needs promotion, promotion needs people, weapons destroy people, weapons destroy promotion and hence weapons destroy ideology. Yes?

Lifer - Member

Bull. And it was the Queen of Spain who ordered/allowed the conquest of the Incans in the name of Spain.

Ok, in the name of Queen as you wish. The conquest was in one of their name anyway, King or Queen.

chewkw

Weapon can kill off ideology, I win. Yes?

If you're so desperate to prove the point that ideas and ideologies can be eradicated through brute force and violence why don't you list some, as opposed to flogging a dead horse re: Incas.

I see the sensible debate thread lasted long

What's needed here, and probably wouldn't go amiss in Syria, is a picture of some ickle fwuffy kittens. Awwwwwww....

[img] http://wallpaperswide.com/kittens-wallpapers.html [/img]

chewkw - Member
Explain your views on North Korea if you think otherwise. What say you?

You mean refute YOUR view on North Korea, I never mentioned it. Anyway:

For example, any nation with a single ideology is simply that. North Korea for example has one single ideology whether it is a form of communism or the cult of worshiping dear leader your choice. Yes, they will shoot you or "rehabilitate" you if you decide to go against their prevailing ideology.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/02/north-korea-is-religion-allowed ]A North Korean talks about North Korea[/url]

Like anywhere in the world, when things get too much and life gets unbearably hard, people like to know what is ahead of their future. Spiritual beings can help in this regard, and as a result, many North Koreans invest their money in fortune-telling. North Koreans, you see, would rather trust the spirits than the party or nation.

and

[url= http://www.nknews.org/2013/09/from-kim-to-christ-how-religion-works-for-north-koreans/ ]From Kim to Christ[/url]

Ever since the Christian movement arose, many pastors and missionaries went to China to reach Chinese and North Koreans, some actually helping North Koreans with basic subsistence matters. By sharing Christianity through Biblical teaching, they encouraged North Korean people to return to their country to be missionaries. In this way some North Koreans actually gave up defecting to a third country and returned to North Korea to give out Bibles.

Other Christian defectors who were caught and repatriated to North Korea secretly kept their faith and shared it with their own family there. These people however, are a minority and the government is searching madly to crack down on them. But this doesn’t mean there is absolutely no religion at all. Humans are inherently weak beings and life’s worries, anxieties and expectations increase when life gets tough.

Weapon can kill off ideology, I win. Yes?

Sure. Except, you know, facts again.

There is still a lot of YT videos liked to this execution still up for viewing. I really don't know why they are still there and not taken down...

The comment earlier about censoring Jerry Adams was an interesting parallel.

I didn't open any, I don't need to see this. Just the thought is bad enough.

Apologies for sidetracking the thread I just get pissed off with his constant baseless witterings.

There is a push on the media, growing increasingly strident, to claim that what ISIS are doing is "nothing to do with Islam".

I don't agree. The Islamic religious variant is at the very root of the depravity, in the same way that the politics of the French Revolution was at the root of "The Terror".

It didn't just suddenly spring out of a vacuum.

Mr Woppit

I don't agree. The Islamic religious variant is at the very root of the depravity, in the same way that the politics of the French Revolution was at the root of "The Terror".

It didn't just suddenly spring out of a vacuum.

Islam is a component of it, but it's not the very root of depravity. Wherever you have poor people living in a state of violent flux you will see violence. Whatever the predominant religion is, it will be manipulated or bent to suit the needs of those who want to carry out violent acts.

In Northern Ireland we had "Christian" preachers proclaiming that killing a Catholic was no worse than killing a dog, since they didn't believe in Christ and were already damned to hell according to some sort of version British Isrealism being taught in slum estates. And of course there were any number of Catholic priests involved in the IRA, not least the ones who regularly took took the confessions of IRA killers to absolve them of those sins.

Jordan has the death penalty as does the US, China, Saudi etc. It's part of the their legal process. The Jordanians knew the pilot had been killed which is why they wanted proof of life before releasing the prisoners.

IS carries out these acts as they believe it weakens their enemies resolve, not the Western military but the more liberal populations they are trying to influence. Their policy of killing prisoners certainly causes their local enemies to flee in many cases. Also for their own supporters or potential recruits these killings are seen as a show of power and control. The twisted logic is that the more of them who may die as the result of allied air strikes will mean more martyrs going to heaven to collect their 70 virgins and more recruits who will be drawn to the fight.

@globalti, the lady had a suicide vest which failed to exploded despite repeated attempts to set it off (in an attempt to kill mostly Palestinians btw). She certainly qualifies as a terrorist to me.

On videos we all make our own choices, I've never watched a hostage beheading video but I have seen numerous videos of ISIS members executing prisoners and displaying severed heads.

I believe in right and wrong and good and evil.
Not biblical evil, satan and such like but that there are good good men and woman and evil men and woman.
And you cannot fight evil with a strongly worded letter. You need good men and woman prepared to use violence in the name of whats right.

A dead terrorist and a dead pilot are not equal in my eyes.
It is not just the method of death that separates them but motive.

A celebrated american sheriff was at an awards ceremony when a woman noticed he was wearing his side arm.
"You expecting trouble sheriff"
"No mam, if I was expecting trouble I would have brought my rifle"

If all good men were hand wringers we would all be ****ed.

jimjam - Member
Islam is a component of it, but it's not the very root of depravity. Wherever you have poor people living in a state of violent flux you will see violence. Whatever the predominant religion is, it will be manipulated or bent to suit the needs of those who want to carry out violent acts.

+1

Funny you used the word vacuum Woppit, that's exactly what they sprung out of. Syria destroyed by civil war and Iraq destroyed by, you know, us.

@ jimjam

Before ISIS there was al Qaeda and the Taliban. Before that there was the Mujahedeen. All these organisations are inspired by the writings of their [s]Prophet[/s] Poppet and his requirements of jihad against "the unbeliever". With each successive sinkage to a deeper level of what I choose to call "depravity" - from the bombing of non-muslims to the bombing of their own kind to the shooting of women in stadiums meant for sport to beheadings to throat cuttings to throwing people off buildings to immolation - you will hear the shout "Allah U Akhbar".

Religion.

jimjam - Member
If you're so desperate to prove the point that ideas and ideologies can be eradicated through brute force and violence why don't you list some, as opposed to flogging a dead horse re: Incas.

I was asked to provide reference etc so I did. Like I said the case of Incas perhaps is a total form of ideology wipe out while the rest might not be hence I used Incas as example.

Lifer - Member

Yes, they will shoot you or "rehabilitate" you if you decide to [u][b]go against[/b][/u] their prevailing ideology.

A North Korean talks about North Korea

Yes, try to do it publicly see if that ideology gets wipe out.

For for spreading Christianity to N. Korea? Ya, do it opening see if that ideology get promoted.

Ideology is simply just an ideology. Without people promoting let's see how far the brilliant ideology can go. Do you think ideology will simply jump out to brainwash the people? HHmmm?

A bit like saying guns kill is it not? If you don't pull the trigger do you think the gun will jump up and shoot you? You are going to say remote control ghost now aren't you? 😆

Similarly, if an ideology does not get promoted by the people how far do you think that ideology will progress? Hmmmm? Why do you think the Christians need to sneak their way back to N.Korea? Why not promote it openly hmmmm?

Yes, dead people can't promote ideology.

🙄

Lifer - Member

Apologies for sidetracking the thread I just get pissed off with his constant baseless witterings.

You might be good in your arguments but you are simply too idealistic to be practical.

Mr Woppit - Member

@ jimjam

Before ISIS there was al Qaeda and the Taliban. Before that there was the Mujahedeen. All these organisations are inspired by the writings of their Prophet Poppet and his requirements of jihad against "the unbeliever". With each successive sinkage to a deeper level of what I choose to call "depravity" - from the bombing of non-muslims to the bombing of their own kind to the shooting of women in stadiums meant for sport to beheadings to throat cuttings to throwing people off buildings to immolation - you will hear the shout "Allah U Akhbar".

Religion.

What were Mohammed's requirements of Jihad then Woppit?

Lifer - Member
Apologies for sidetracking the thread I just get pissed off with his constant baseless witterings.

Just ignore him, like the rest of us. 😉

What were Mohammed's requirements of Jihad then Woppit?

Presumably you know how to use Google. Do your own homework.

Without wading through the entire thread, I assume it's been raised that the pilot was probably killed in early Jan, meaning all bargaining for his life afterwards was completely pointless?

And I assume it been pointed out that Jordan didn't release the female bomber in return for the Japanese journo, which is what IS wanted.

I also assume it's been mentioned that the UK didn't send Abu Qatada to Jordan because of their human rights record.

It's a massively complicated circle of events where a lot of cultures and ideologies are not fitting too well together.

Mr Woppit - Member

@ jimjam

Before ISIS there was al Qaeda and the Taliban. Before that there was the Mujahedeen. All these organisations are inspired by the writings of their Prophet Poppet and his requirements of jihad against "the unbeliever". With each successive sinkage to a deeper level of what I choose to call "depravity" - from the bombing of non-muslims to the bombing of their own kind to the shooting of women in stadiums meant for sport to beheadings to throat cuttings to throwing people off buildings to immolation - you will hear the shout "Allah U Akhbar".

Religion.

Mr. Woppit you need to look a bit further back and understand who the Muhahadeen were.(Summarising) Freedom fighters led by Ahmad Shah Massoud, funded by the U.S to defeat the Russians, based on assurances by Thatcher and Reagan that they would recieve support to build a democratic Afghanistan if they succeeded.

Reagan and Thatcher reneged, leaving them at the mercy of ****stani extremists (the taliban) leading to civil war. During the Afghan civil war the Taliban offered a truce to Massoud, he could lead the country if he inforced sharia law, he rejected this claiming he would rather die fighting for democracy.

It's not an entirely dissimilar story to what is currently happening in Iraq.

chewkw - Member
Similarly, if an ideology does not get promoted by the people how far do you think that ideology will progress? Hmmmm? Why do you think the Christians need to sneak their way back to N.Korea? Why not promote it openly hmmmm? Yes, dead person(s) can't promote ideology.

So you accept there are Christians in North Korea?

So

Weapon can kill off ideology

hasn't occurred in Noth Korea, despite their best efforts.

Mr Woppit - Member

"What were Mohammed's requirements of Jihad then Woppit?"

Presumably you know how to use Google. Do your own homework.

Sorry I thought you had something in mind when you wrote it, I'll be back!

Curses! I agree with the Wopster! I hate it when that happens.

To say that this is nothing to do with Islam is preposterous, and is counter-productive as it immediately hobbles the discussion. It is everything to do with Islam.

The central tenet of the IS ideology is that the more liberal (everything's relative Eh?) westernised form of Islam is actually a perversion of the faith. And that their hardline interpretation is the One True Path. So they regard Musilms who practice anything short of their zealotry, as as anti-Islamic as U.S. infidels.

What we're dealing with is fascism. But it is specifically it is Islamic facsism

So to say that 'it has nothing to do with Islam' is just plain stupid! Any answers, or solutions' surely have to come from within the Islamic community itself, surely?

Mr Woppit - Member

What were Mohammed's requirements of Jihad then Woppit?

Presumably you know how to use Google. Do your own homework.

I agree with Mr Woppit in this case.

Mr Woppit - Member

Lifer - Member
Apologies for sidetracking the thread I just get pissed off with his constant baseless witterings.

Just ignore him, like the rest of us.

😆 He knows he agrees with me.

Lifer - Member

So you accept there are Christians in North Korea?

So

Weapon can kill off ideology

hasn't occurred in Noth Korea, despite their best efforts.

The original question was weapon cannot kill off ideology which I disagree.

In the case of N.Korea, that Christian ideology was wiped out in that land until it was re-introduced / sneaked in again.

This is very different from the fact that it cannot be wiped out or destroy by weapon. 🙄

[b]edit: if you lot agree with Mr Woppit and Mr Woppit agrees with me vice versa does that mean you lot now agree with me? Therefore, I am right throughout ... 😆 [/b]

"Fight for the sake of Allah those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. Allah does not love the aggressors" (2:191)

"kindle a fire for war, Allah extinguishers it. They strive to create disorder in the earth, and Allah loves not those who create disorder" (28:78)

chewkw - Member

In the case of N.Korea, that Christian ideology was wiped out in that land

Not going to hold my breathe, but any evidence that it was wiped out?