So at least some people do regard it as hate speech,
There is always someone who will find anything offensive / call it hate speech.
Perhaps it might be useful to have some reaction from a member of the Roma community to explain their perspective.
If you ever watch Chris Rock's N word sketch, the audience is full if black people laughing their tits off.....
If you can’t tell the difference between a joke about genocide and genocide itself you really are going to struggle in this thread…
Um, I can clearly tell the difference, anyway, it was a joke, sorry
Watching that Ricky Gervais clip (yes, I still find him funny) immediately brought this to mind...
NSFW ... a bit sweary...
It's relevant to lots of other posts in this thread as well... well worth a watch... but I repeat... very sweary... headphones on if you're at work, or feeding your toddler...
I don't mind Jimmy Carr but it was a crap unpleasant joke, even if he thought he was making some smart point.
Jimmy Carr is living proof of cancel culture being largely a figment of imagination.
His apparently justification for the joke is that it plays on prejudices against gypsies.
People in the UK have prejudices against disabled people too - infact I'd argue that that gets far more attention within comedy than gypsies, cirtainly within the last 20 yrs, and I suspect that's why he chose to go that route.
He can afford to pack it in now, I’m sure.
Perhaps he had an unexpected tax bill to pay?
If you ever watch Chris Rock’s N word sketch, the audience is full if black people laughing their tits off…..
Isn't that completely different though?
It's ok to make fun of your own culture - but if someone from another culture made the same jokes people would be offended....
Perhaps if Jimmy Carr were a Romany it would have been ok....
I'm not a fan and not seen the show, so clearly ideally qualified to give unbiased comment...
Which is I dunno really? As a joke it's close in construction to Bernard Manning one (how to describe a racist joke without inadvertently telling it?) whereby he says that joking aside, what he really wants is, listing a bunch of ethnic groups at length, for everyone to get together all as one group to -quick punchline- assault another ethnic group. Only difference is in the 70s he'd tell that on mainstream telly. Seriously...
On the other hand, Carr is speaking in a different time to an audience he assumes will be anti racist. An the joke is kind of at racists, whilst making a right on audience grit their teeth in an épater le bourgeois kind of way. And if, like Alf Garnet or the Pub Landlord not all his audience will get that, so what?
Well I guess for me let's just say Jerry Sadovitz turns the dial excruciatingly further, whilst clearly no success and being hardest on himself, and looking to shock a white middle class and he assumes guardian reading audience out of their complacency... But why I'll never go and see him again is wondering what I looked like to the younger, female, Indian subcontinent family origin members of the audience. Beyond uncomfortable... Which kind of may be the point though I think poorly judged. As so too the Carr one albeit on a lower level. Though he clearly thinks he's going for something he should probably leave it...
Surely the only way we can gauge whether or not it’s OK is Rachel Riley’s reaction
Don't be a bigger bellend than usual JHJ.
Watched it a few days after release and remember thinking on the whole it was a funny special. Re watched it at the weekend to see if I’d missed something, still found it funny!
I think people struggle with the fact that stand up is just an act, the same as someone on tv or in a film. Al Murray isn’t a little englander, Stewart lee isn’t that far left wing, Anthony Jeselnik doesn’t like dropping babies. To me it’s the same as an actor in a film using the racist language, just because it came out their mouth doesn’t mean they think/mean it
bigger bellend than usual JHJ
Don't get jealous about the size of my bellend... 😉
I think the Holocaust material would have been a bit much if that's all there had been but luckily Jimmy managed to keep it light by throwing in the usual rape jokes and a fair sprinkling of material about child sex abuse. Phew!
Surely the only way we can gauge whether or not it’s OK is Rachel Riley’s reaction
Don’t be a bigger bellend than usual JHJ.
Of all the comments on the thread, that's the one that wound you up?
Haha, yep, I thought JHJ's comment was a bit of light relief.
I saw the set live a while back, with my son. Jimmy Carr did paedo jokes, incest jokes, holocaust jokes... etcetc. Things that aren't at all funny, made funny by a comedian. It was brilliant.
He even did a paedo joke actually to my son..!
He even set up the holocaust joke by saying here's something that will offend everyone...
He's actually wading in and making a statement about what comedians can and can't joke about.
Then this happens. I just saw it as a "Later... " piece at the start of a news programme.
I haven't watched any of the news reports or read up on it, because it is so BLINDINGLY ****ING OBVIOUS what the hard of thinking will be saying, that I don't need to.
It's not the first Holocaust joke he's told. He's told one before about a school mate getting caught masturbating in the showers on a school trip, with the punchline subsequently revealing that school trip was to Auschwitz. That joke came at the end of of string of increasingly (potentially) offensive jokes that he was telling to test the limit as to what you can joke about. When he told that joke, everyone laughed, although it was the kind of laugh bourne as much out of shock for having told something so horrendously offensive that all you can do is laugh.
Nothing should be offlimits for comedy and there was a lot of push back from the comedy community when the UK passed laws making it an offence to tell certain jokes based on religion etc.
Jokes are societies (safe) way of exploring how it really feels about a thing. The mistake people make, when they found a joke offensive, is to think that that automatically means the comedian is sanctioning the thing they are making fun of. Of course if they are doing that then that's deeply problematic and in our history we have found some comedians to be guilty of that. Bernard Manning springs to mind.
But the role of the 'jester' in playing back to society its moires, foibles, values and hypocricies is hugely important part of maintaining cohesion and for reinforcing our values. Jimmy Carr treads a fine line and for sure he will upset a lot of people. But until I think he really does mean it when he says that killing the gypisies was a good thing, I will be OK with him telling that joke.
For those who don't think it's funny, that noise that keeps coming from the audience is laughter 😉 (wink because the comment is tongue in cheek before you attack me)
To laugh at this joke doesn't mean you are racist, it's funny because of the juxtaposition between what the audience expect is coming next (holocaust was bad thing for everyone) and what Carr says (holocaust nobody thinks of the upsides) that's largely how jokes work. To hear it again, not so funny as you know the punchline and the surprise is lost. (I don't think it was his A-material FWIW)
That being said I worked with a guy who liked Frankie Boyle because he thought he actually was racist and hated immigrants - in line with his own beliefs - Frankie has since been found not to be racist by a jury in a Court of Law but I can understand how people may see his on stage persona as being so.
As someone whose grandfather died in Auschwitz I feel I should contribute to this thread. I haven't really talked about it before but he was a huge influence on my life even though I never met him. In my eyes he died a hero.
He got drunk one night and fell off the guard tower.*
*This joke is obviously not being told by the actual BruceWee but by the 'character' BruceWee who is a joke telling persona I created.
It's very clever because I'm first subverting expectations by starting with a sombre tone before moving onto a highly offensive punchline.
It's also very clever because I'm posting it on a thread where people are arguing that it's OK to make offensive jokes that aren't actually all that funny so you don't know to what extent I believe the guards were the true heroes of the holocaust and to what extent I'm making fun of people who find the joke funny.
It really is the perfect joke because racists can find it funny on a surface level, racists who like to pretend they aren't racists can find it funny because it's so 'clever', and anyone who doesn't find it funny is obviously a bed-wetting snowflake lib-tard.
He’s told one before about a school mate getting caught masturbating in the showers on a school trip, with the punchline subsequently revealing that school trip was to Auschwitz.
Now that is actually funny, and arguably much less offensive.
Jokes are societies (safe) way of
... making a living.
That being said I worked with a guy who liked Frankie Boyle because he thought he actually was racist and hated immigrants – in line with his own beliefs – Frankie has since been found not to be racist by a jury in a Court of Law but I can understand how people may see his on stage persona as being so.
Al Murry / Pub Landlord suffers the same 'fate', the positive thing about all that it, Al often subtly challenges the stereotypes that his character portrays and, should at least give his audience who aren't in on the joke a different perspective.
The mistake people make, when they found a joke offensive, is to think that that automatically means the comedian is sanctioning the thing they are making fun of. Of course if they are doing that then that’s deeply problematic and in our history we have found some comedians to be guilty of that.
Comedy treads a fine line. Shows I grew up with in the 70s like Are You Being Served or It Ain't Half Hot Mum - were they portraying sexist/homophobic/racist attitudes to support and promote them, or to mock them and highlight their stupidity and maybe make the audience question their own beliefs and attitudes?
It's not always as clear cut as our current simplistic "black or white" social media led world view would like it to be.
Shows I grew up with in the 70s like Are You Being Served or It Ain’t Half Hot Mum – were they portraying sexist/homophobic/racist attitudes to support and promote them, or to mock them and highlight their stupidity and maybe make the audience question their own beliefs and attitudes?
Those shows have not aged well. Aside from the offensiveness, they just aren't funny.
[i]To laugh at this joke doesn’t mean you are racist, it’s funny because... etc[/i]
Wow, imagine being someone who needs this shit explained to you. Certainly glad I'm not one of those.
Aside from the offensiveness, they just aren’t funny.
Much like Carr...
Should have tried it out on Tyson Fury first perhaps. I'd pay to watch that.
The other side to this, is Comedy dividing line of punching up, or down.
Not long ago, it was pretty simple, the likes of Bernard Manning, Roy Brown and Jim Davidson made jokes about Minorities and Women (who were under represented in Comedy) they punched down, which was bullying really.
The likes of Ben Elton and Alexie Sayle made jokes about authority figures and inequality, they punched up.
It still stands today, superficially it seems that Jimmy Carr is punching down, he's staying horrible things about a minority group that is persecuted, but that's not the point. Genocide of minority groups isn't funny. I think Carr, like a lot of US based Comic is doing with his "career ending jokes" is punching up at Cancel Culture.
Those shows have not aged well. Aside from the offensiveness, they just aren’t funny.
Conversely, Benny Hill back on TV again, does not feel as offensive as it used to be and there is a lot of comedy genius.
Regardless of what you think of Jimmy Carr's joke, I can guarantee you there will be/has been an upsurge of abuse towards travellers using words similar to what he said. Traveller kids in schools will be getting bullied with it, guaranteed.
Jimmy Carr isn't stupid he will have known that would happen and did the joke anyway. 'Hey it's just comedy not my fault' doesn't really wash with me.
You used to have people saying 'I agree with Alf Garnett'. Comedians should be free to put it out there and its success judged by the size of the paying audience. I've never laughed so much as at Jerry Sadowitz offending everyone. Its dangerous once people start putting themslves up as the repressive moral adjudicators and its often not too difficult to find the people they are quite happy to discriminate against.
It’s not always as clear cut as our current simplistic “black or white” social media led world view would like it to be.
I completely agree and that was the point I was making. You can't automatically assume that the offensive joke is sanctioning the thing being made fun of but you also cannot automatically assume that it's not. In the 70s it is easy to see that a lot of comedy was made at the expense of those marginalised groups (which is why they were marginalised back then) and yet the fact that there were groups we poked fun at is one of the ways we were able to recognise the wrong we were doing.
It’s not a funny joke. It’s not meant to be a funny joke. It’s meant to make you think. Particularly if your instinct was to laugh or smirk. I don’t believe Carr is in the least bit racist. But I do believe he is wants to make people feel uncomfortable at their innate reaction. And think.
Maybe he’s trying to stay edgy rather than turning into a
MacintyreFrankie Boyle type presenting some dull chat show?
FTFY. I used to like Frankie Boyle before I saw him laughing along to David "pineapple on his head" Baddiel's fake statistics about Corbyn.
Yep, I’m sure the audience all went to the pub afterwards and had a think about what they found funny about Jimmy’s jokes. Oh, I laughed, but I was being post-ironic.
All this guff reminds me of is the old ‘I’m not racist, but . . .’ bollox.
"I'll tell you one good thing about the war in Afghanistan, with all the troops getting injured, we're going to have a shit hot 2012 Paralympic team"
That's a Jimmy Carr joke from over twenty years ago, his stand up has always been offensive like that, if you don't like it don't watch it.
If you want to be pissed off by something he's done, start with the massive tax dodging.
Yep, I’m sure the audience all went to the pub afterwards and had a think about what they found funny about Jimmy’s jokes.
We all talking about it now aren't we?
It’s not a funny joke. It’s not meant to be a funny joke. It’s meant to make you think. Particularly if your instinct was to laugh or smirk. I don’t believe Carr is in the least bit racist. But I do believe he is wants to make people feel uncomfortable at their innate reaction. And think.
Nicely put.
First they came for Chubby Brown...
The difference between the 'showers' joke and the roma joke is the target of the comedy. the shower joke is about someone with all the luck in the world (the teenagers going on the school trip) but still not respecting boundaries - the roma joke was just a straight punch down because it's about a minority, it's the kind of joke that Bernard Manning and their ilk used to do (I'm old enough to remember Bernard and I'm glad he's not around anymore). I think he knew it wasn't ok but told it anyway and will deserve the criticism.
He’s told one before about a school mate getting caught masturbating in the showers on a school trip, with the punchline subsequently revealing that school trip was to Auschwitz.
That like a lot of JC's jokes, is about the story leading you to a different place than the actual punchline, it's funny because it flips the story to somewhere you weren't expecting.
This time the punchline failed to do that and the joke wasn't good, I also don't think it was some conscious effort to get people thinking about the subject matter.
He tries to push the limit on acceptable, and takes the piss of everyone including himself, I rather like his act. But sometimes he gets it wrong, I hope he accepts and acknowledges that rather than claiming he is a victim of cancel culture.
There is nothing worse than comedians whining about cancel culture, blubbing how unfair it is that people don't like their jokes, they are worse than Hitler.
Baddiel’s fake statistics
The same Baddiel who had a long standing Joke about a coloured footballer at the start of his career?
As the Holocaust victim said to God on getting to heaven "you had to be there"
it’s the kind of joke that Bernard Manning
It really wasn’t.
"It’s not meant to be a funny joke. It’s meant to make you think."
My issue is that it won't work for morons, they will just have a laugh thinking it's ok because carr told it.
There is nothing worse than comedians whining about cancel culture, blubbing how unfair it is that people don’t like their jokes, they are worse than Hitler.
Agree - but JC hasn't done any of this, quite the opposite really.
Im not a big fan of JC. Trying to shock for the sake of it, without any real intelligence, but just my Opinion (and I have no problem with the most offensive jokes)
I watched most of that show and found it pretty poor. The Holocaust joke was for me making a point of people’s covert racism towards travellers(see channel 5 most nights), and bringing it out into the open…
