Now, before I start, I'm not accusing Armstrong of child abuse. The thing is, it struck me just now while watching the news that these are both powerful blokes who've done a lot for charity and - temporarily at least - put themselves beyond reproach. So which comes first, the power, corruption or the philanthropy?
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Did he ever get his refund?
They may also both be innocent of the crimes they are being accused of.....
Well Lance did go out with one of the Olsens so you are underselling your thesis.
They may indeed be innocent. And all those liars out there may indeed just be doing it for the glory. Alternatively it might all be the CIA.
In many ways Lance is quite similar to Hitler...
Has Lance been gassing Jews as well now ? 🙄
Did he ever get his refund?
top lolz
So which comes first, the power, corruption or the philanthropy?
always the philanthropy - the Nurenburg ralley was originally planned as charity fun run.
In many ways Lance is quite similar to Hitler...
I don't think the song is accurate.
It's amazing the the level of the corruption, yes there was always suspicion but this is epic. I think the bigger story is how the UCI will be implicated and if they decide to burn Armstrong given the dirt he could dish.
So which comes first, the power, corruption or the philanthropy?
Do mean in what order are these things acquired or which is most important to assessing them [Lance and Jimmy] morally?
If we're discussing morality, I think all aspects of their personalities are important - you wouldn't absolve someone of moral wrongness on a large scale, just because they engaged in large-scale philanthropy. I would argue that Savile is worse as he physically harmed people whereas Armstrong committed much indirect harm through damaging the sport etc.
I think Saville is innocent until proven guilty however it looks like the evidence is stacking up and its all coming out at the BBC.
If he did this not only was it harming people but kids as well.
Not followed all the Armstrong stuff but surely the UCI/USADA has to accept that they were at best inept at worst culpable.
If you compare the retorts of the apoligists and fans, then clearly yes.
In reality they are obviously far removed from each other, but ultimately both are despicable (yes, the scale and emotive impact is different) for their behaviour and the ways in which such behaviours have impacted others.
The corruption issue comes first.
It is everywhere. It is poison. It needs to be killed.
I don't think their crimes can be compared directly at all. Utterly different as you say palookah.
It's really the massive scale charity work which suddenly looks like it's main purpose for the celebrity is to provide them with cover. Lance's tweet last night that all he was thinking about was Livestrong while all the allegations were being published made me feel a bit queasy, and now I think I know why. "Don't challenge me, all I care about is charity and other people".
ones dead and has no ability for defence (however guilty or immoral his crimes "could be")
the other has tired of the witch hunt and has refused to comment / partake anyfurther (much to the fury of the witch hunt posses.
At worst if guilty Lance did nothing more than play the same game as many others in prof.. cycling and cheated himself / his sponsors / some of his peers.
I dont see how sexual abuse in anyway can be compared to SPORT ?
Maybe you could pop into a local centre that tries to help victims of sexual abuse and ask their views on Lance ?
Please report back on here with your findings..
nwilko - Member
ones dead and has no ability for defence (however guilty or immoral his crimes "could be")the other has tired of the witch hunt and has refused to comment / partake anyfurther (much to the fury of the witch hunt posses.
At worst if guilty Lance did nothing more than play the same game as many others in prof.. cycling and cheated himself / his sponsors / some of his peers.I dont see how sexual abuse in anyway can be compared to SPORT ?
Maybe you could pop into a local centre that tries to help victims of sexual abuse and ask their views on Lance ?
Please report back on here with your findings..
Two minor points on this;
Firstly it's not a witch hunt. It's an investigation into doping activities led by the relevant Anti Doping Authority. A witch hunt is very different and sometimes end in a scene like this;
[img] http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhgcnKUN5gkCqz0YAyM6yL2Q0LUW_8atFGUb02PwtgSj7YumllHU9-tP7jhA [/img]
Secondly, I don't think Jimmy actually has to be alive for him to be proven innocent. Other people have been cleared of convictions posthumously.
I'm not comparing sexual abuse with sport. I'm just questioning whether there is a similar (self serving) motivation for these particular individuals' fundraising activity.
Apparently when the family removed savilles headstone, all that was left was a small hole and a bush, its what jimmy would have wanted!!
I don't think the song is accurate.
very good!
As said above you cant compare an abuser very easily to a cheating sportsman. The only real parallel that comes to mind for me is that when something looks too good to be true it normally is wrong.
The silly investment returns some fund managers promise only to be discovered as ponzi scheme fraudsters later on is another case.
In our desire to conjure up heroes and stars we often encourage cheats. Winning seems too often to be the goal at any cost whether as a celebrity, or in sport.
Unfortunately we as humans are inherently weak. maybe thats a control to stop any of us getting too much power?
As they say on TV "it's good - but it's not [i]right[/i]" 😯rob jackson - Member
Apparently when the family removed savilles headstone, all that was left was a small hole and a bush, its what jimmy would have wanted!!
mother Theresa was a keen charity type that used it as a cover for her reactionary politics- did jimmy pay her a visit ?
Both men both did or do charity work so yes similar.
As for the rest no.
A strange coincidence that the JS story comes out so soon after his death? Were the producers not so confident of the evidence to face up to legal challenge? I don't see how the apparent victims or JS can get any real justice now, a real potty that this didn't come to police notice while he was alive.
As an aside I bid on the JS estate auction for a few bits of memorabilia, what a relief I didn't win anything!
I think some of it did come to police attention prior to his death - wasn't he interviewed in 2008 about an allegation?
the other has tired of the witch hunt and has refused to comment / partake anyfurther
It's always the witches who complain the loudest about witch hunts.
At worst if guilty Lance did nothing more than play the same game as many others in prof.. cycling
If you really still believe that, maybe you should go and read the docs. Or if you can't be bothered, the press reports of them make it clear he was no ordinary doper.
STW is amazing. A cheat is the same as Paedaphilia or Boris is likened to Boris.
You can't compare a cheat to a paedophile... That's just ridiculous 😯 I'm not defending Lance but come on..
Don't get me wrong. I'm not comparing their crimes, just their motivation for the great philanthropy, and the "I'm too big and saintly to be challenged" bit.
IMO it still doesn't compare, lance did charity work as a result of his own experience with cancer, Jimmy did charity work to get the opportunity to abuse vulnerable children...
It's not comparable IMO
There's probably a thread in the making claiming Lance to be such a thing, and this thread will be the evidence
jonjones262 - MemberIn many ways Lance is quite similar to Hitler...
Godwins law in 7 posts on a paedo / doping thread? Awesome work! 😆
lance did charity work as a [s]result of his own experience with cancer,[/s] means of enhancing his own image and getting other people to pay his legal bills
That may be, but it wasn't done to get the chance to abuse children...
Like I said before, I'm not defending what he's done but comparing him to Saville because they both did charity work is just daft...
IMO they did charity work for totally different reasons...
Jimmy fkd 7 year olds, Lance only fk'd up 7 years of cycling
I think that when people become famous they get so much adulation they start to feel an immunity and impunity. The likes of Blair, DSK, Wulff and Sarkosy assume that their position means they'll get away with just about anything, and generally they do. In fact about the only mud that really sticks is taking too much interest in children as the worst will always be assumed.
JS was the originator and orchestrator of evil abuse. It began and ended with him with no allegations of group activity so far.
LA is/was a pawn in a game that allowed cheating to fester it started well before he got involved but then he became the key player and influencer of the game; however people above Lance i.e. UCI as an organisation have even more to answer for than Lance.
The only similarities are that they both hid behind the charity and that others colluded in cover ups, I don't beleive (or perhaps don't want to beleive) the DG of the BBC knew categorically what JS was up to but do believe the UCI was fully aware of what was going on at USPS.
I'd be more inclined to think of Lance as a Bishop than a Pawn
He's like the Jeffrey Archer of cycling.
Made it big, does a bit of cheating, denies and covers it up, gets found out, goes to prison and still makes a fortune from his books.