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Are adapters fairly commonplace to allow a router to run on another manufacturers rail guide, from a Festool track saw in this case?
There's a guy making little 3D printed rail adaptors on eBay - I've got one for running a laminate trimmer along a mafell rail
https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/wegsisolutions?_trksid=p2047675.m3561.l2563
Couple of questions, I seem to find myself drawn to palm routers, assuming its decent any reason not to when the initial purpose is cutting Dados/Rabbets.
I'm also torn between two ends of the price bracket.
A Katsu
Or a Bosch GKF125
But I've no way personally of knowing whether one is better than the other. Anyone had hands on with these two machines?
I’ve nothing useful to add here but Routers for some reason scare the crap out of me. I actually stuff cardboard down my trousers to provide some extra protection as I have irrational visions of the bit breaking and spearing my manhood.
any reason not to when the initial purpose is cutting Dados/Rabbets
Housings/Rebates 😉
Couple of questions, I seem to find myself drawn to palm routers, assuming its decent any reason not to when the initial purpose is cutting Dados/Rabbets.
I’m also torn between two ends of the price bracket.
A Katsu
Or a Bosch GKF125
Palm routers are brilliant. Certainly a good gateway to routing.
Just don't try to do anything too meaty with them.
I've not got direct user experience with the Bosch, though we used to get a Bosch demo guy in my last work once a year and I was always really impressed with quality and features.
I have a little 12v Bosch driver which is mint.
I do have the katsu though and there is no getting around that it's brilliant for the money.
I think the fact that you can use Makita accessories with it and katsu with Makita, I would personally go katsu.
You can always upgrade once you get a feel for what you're wanting to do the most.
Cheap enough that you can knock yourself up a little mini router table with an additional one which would make many jobs easier and safer.
when the initial purpose is cutting Dados/Rabbets.
Dado construction is one of those things that Mericans go on and on about, 'cos they've got table saws. FWIW (not much), rabbets/rabbits is 'Merican too. Rebates is Brit.
I did a full custom kitchen with dado construction with a track saw. I wouldn't use a router, even on a track adapter. I certainly would not use a palm router.
Piece of pi55 with a track saw. Just make yourself a shim the thickness of the blade's kerf. Clamp up a straight edge. Cut #1: put the shim against the straight edge, put the track against the shim. Cut #2: take away the shim; put on offcut of the material that will be mating into the dado against the straight edge; put the track against the offcut. You now have the accurate edges of your dado. Hog out the material in the middle any way you care. Track saw is still dead easy for this.
Peter Millard is a goldmine. All killer / no filler.
Are adapters fairly commonplace to allow a router to run on another manufacturers rail guide, from a Festool track saw in this case?
Arf. You've seen the prices of Festool track.
Millard did a video on cross-compatibility of different manufacturers track with different saws, but mostly for cheap saw cross-compatibility. Festool/Makita/Triton are all 98% the same but Makita adds an anti-tipping lip on the back channel and Triton copy that. I've used Triton and Festool saws on Makita track. Hint: Never use more than one saw on a piece of track - no guarantee that the second saw won't trim back the splinter guard and make it useless for the first saw.
Another hint with the festool saw. Blades matter. The default blade is usually a detail 48T blade for cutting laminate without chipping. The saw will struggle if you start running it through thick timber, particularly for rips. It will stall and burn the work. Get lower tooth count blades appropriately if you need them. Also occasionally clean your blades. Meths or isopropyl alcohol work a treat.
Piece of pi55 with a track saw. Just make yourself a shim the thickness of the blade’s kerf. Clamp up a straight edge. Cut #1: put the shim against the straight edge, put the track against the shim. Cut #2: take away the shim; put on offcut of the material that will be mating into the dado against the straight edge; put the track against the offcut. You now have the accurate edges of your dado. Hog out the material in the middle any way you care. Track saw is still dead easy for this.
Dont suppose theres a YouTube video for that, just so I can verify my understanding of the process is correct.
Arf. You’ve seen the prices of Festool track.
Theres an attachment for the saw specifically for cutting grooves to width, oh how I laughed when I spotted the price...
@finbar I have a tracksaw and live in Chesterfield if you want to borrow it, or bring the wood over. Am away this weekend though.
Dont suppose theres a YouTube video for that
On a table saw, but it is the same idea as with a track saw/clamped straight edge combo...
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxUEJO55nl8jT-pVPLQuGUTlvDwidHGaQ2
I've got the Bosch palm router kit: https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/boschtools-ocs/palm-routers-gkf125cepk-119901-p/
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Very handy, I mainly use it with a half round bit for edging stuff. It has good dust extraction with the various base plates.
Has very little oomph though, so wouldn't want to try cutting deep rebates. Also, you need 1/4 inch bits for it, whereas a proper router uses 1/2".
Sorry for slight hijack, but did we settle on the STW approved tracksaw? Im a hobbyist, but retired an i could make use of one.
Any suggestiins for the sweet apot of performance and accuracy vs price?
I have dewalk xr 18v battery kit if thats significant, but happy to spend some money to get something that will last me and make a good job.
Ian
Sorry for slight hijack, but did we settle on the STW approved tracksaw?
As an absolute minimum Festool, but preferably Mafell.
but happy to spend some money to get something that will last me and make a good job.
IMO the only reason not to get a Festool plunge/track saw is the cost, which is a fair reason, they're not cheap.
But if money isn't an issue the answer has to be Festool. After years of using one it still impresses me!
Plus the range of adpators from 3rd parties for Festool is massive as it's the most popular 'serious' tool out there.
I went down the Mafell / Bosch route (same track design) and the choice isn't as good.
I have dewalk xr 18v battery kit if thats significant
A colleague has the cordless Dewalt. Nowt wrong with it apart from the garish colour.
I've got Makita. Very happy with it.
Peter Millard is again, a good source for comparisons.
Sorry for slight hijack, but did we settle on the STW approved tracksaw
I went from Triton to Festool and it is night and day. With the cheaper options you have to strive to achieve accuracy which comes built in with the better tools.
The Festool (mine is battery powered) has less power than the Triton but using an appropriate blade for the work in hand makes it a non-issue. The latest versions with the thinner kerf (1.8 vs 2.2 mm) blades have a much easier time of it.
Makita is the commonly referenced mid-range option and there won't be much wrong with it but last time I looked it lacked safety features for preventing kickback.
Last little thing is about battery power vs cable. Using the battery powered festool with the dust catching bag means ... no cables or hoses attached and really easy to manoeuvre and a completely portable option with great dust collection. Obviously a real dust extractor is better but I've taken my track saw to a timber merchants to break down sheet goods in the car park so they fit in the car. Obviously there are some merchants who'll do that for you with panel saws but when there's a bit of a rush on it is useful.
Anyone had hands on with these two machines?
No, but I've one of these and can recommend it:
whereas a proper router uses 1/2″.
Sorry, utter rubbish.
Or a Bosch GKF125
Or as 'in the borders' says, the RTO700, which i also have.
The plunge base on the RTO has a bigger footprint than on the GKF so is more stable, and the RTO also have other bases so overall it is more versatile.
You'll probably find it best if (whichever) lives mostly on the plunge base, as I've found that the small baseplate on the trimmer base, coupled with the weight being high up gives it a tendency to want to tip on edges were only half of that small trimmer base is sitting on the workpiece.
The RTO has an offset base and you can use the triangular baseplate off that to give the router when trimming considerably more stability.
I’ve nothing useful to add here but Routers for some reason scare the crap out of me.
Thats fair comment, they are actually a pretty dangerous powertool. They are top heavy, usually with the handles mounted in the middle so can have a tendency to want to flip over when holding them above the workpiece while running.
This is the offset base fitted to mine. You can see that it allows more of a footprint to sit on the timber so lessens the chance of it tipping over
Re. routers, I've got two very different options.
The beast is the Triton TRA-001. This is 2400W 1/2 inch and lives in the router table most of the time. It is a simple option for the router table because it has the riser mechanism built in. It can swing some seriously large bits and nothing fazes it. It was justified when I needed to template trim some 38mm oak worktops.
The other is a Katsu 1/4in. It is crude but is permanently fitted with a round over bit. Noisy and makes sawdust.
Once again, Millard is on hand to explain the n+1 theory of routers:
I cannot emphasise enough how much I've learned from Peter Millard and a few other youtubers.
The genius is in knocking up little jigs that enhance these tools. The fancypants Festool-esque solutions offer pricetags for fantastically engineered functionality but with a bit of ingenuity you can get 95% of the capability for pennies and a bit of time spent.
I cannot emphasise enough how much I’ve learned from Peter Millard and a few other youtubers.
What I like most about his stuff is the vidoes are short and to the point. Plus he obviously knows his stuff and all his tips are genuinely useful. One of the few YTers I sponser via Patreon.
I've been reading this thread and planning to chip in but others have mentioned what I was going to say before I got there.
However, as a maker of fine and expensive furniture I'd like to point out that there is no real need for expensive tools. Yes, they improve efficiency and are nicer to work with but they don't always improve quality.
Before I got my Festool tracksaw I used a really cheap B&Q circular saw for straight cuts. Using a fence (look it up) from a couple of pieces of chipboard it worked a treat. And I used a corded Black & Decker drill for ages too. I've re-visited some of those pieces recently and they're still pretty good.
I've been lurking here for a while, I've got a job to do on a door (pictures in the other thread if I don't trash it), and have been researching table routers, and now after this thread I've got all the bits on order to make my own.
It's a meta job that needs doing before the real job.
However, as a maker of fine and expensive furniture I’d like to point out that there is no real need for expensive tools.
You'll be saying there's no need to spend 4k on a push bike next! 🙄😉
You’ll be saying there’s no need to spend 4k on a push bike next!
Yes but they improve speed and are nicer to have.
However, as a maker of fine and expensive furniture I’d like to point out that there is no real need for expensive tools. Yes, they improve efficiency and are nicer to work with but they don’t always improve quality.
Burn the heretic
I had 4 doors to trim length wise, I could have got one of the fellow tradesman to get his festool 55 and hoover set up as a wee favour but I like buying tools and got an Evolution bundle for £180
Saw, 2x1400 tracks and 3 mini tracks that are just bigger than scalextric straights
I did the job easy, did the rail trim first and made sure I had a sheet of usb underneath blade set to 2mm deeper than the thickness of the door
I will probably just sell it all now might get nearly my £180 back as they sent me the wrong saw, it was the updated with the light/laser and all the bags to keep everything tidy when storing in the garage
Cheers all, I’m taking punt on the Makita linked to above (but not the 110v version.
Drop me a PM and I will send some cutters I no longer use in the post.
They won't be new or top draw but more than good enough to play with.
1/4 inch
Talk to me about bits
Is it a case of buying cheap, seeing what bits I do actually use before investing?
I only really need a couple to start with.
Trend. Unless you go fancy twist flutes
As above I can send you some to play with won't be new thou
Yeah Trend is the obvious name for router bits. If you are new to routering take your time to learn how a router behaves - it can do a lot of damage to a piece of wood! Really important to remember to tighten up fences/depth gauges properly after making adjustments. And not take off too much material in one go.
Make certain that you are confident of what you plan to do on a piece of scrap wood before attempting it on something that matters.
Apologies if I am assuming incorrectly that you don't have much experience.
It aways good advice they cut fleshi boney bits very well
Wealden Tools are good for router cutters, good quality and cheaper than trend.I'm still running an Elu 1/2" router that I've had for 30 years, it's been great but dust extraction is a ball ache.
Second Wealden tools. I get most of my cutters from there.
Rutlands are good for selection sets.
I used to buy them for the furniture making course I worked on and the quality was really nice.
Cheers all, I’ll take a look at Trend and Wealden
@pk13 thank you for the offer, very kind of you. I’m expect this to be done in grabs hours here and there so don’t mind taking a punt on buying tools so will go that route.
Ernie
Apologies if I am assuming incorrectly that you don’t have much experience.
You’re assuming correctly, total noob here. I’m approaching this on the basis that I’m learning how to use the tool safely first, the figuring out how to do the task I want. Then, if I’m lucky, how to do those tasks well. I’m quite a long way off wanting a well finished product.
https://www.trend-uk.com/courses
I haven't been on a Trend course as my use of routers is mostly limited to site work, eg hinges, locks, worktops, but have always fancied it as workshop routers must surely be the most versatile power tool. I reckon what you can do with a router is limited by what others have shown you and your own imagination.
Also a course would teach you important safety considerations. Routers can be very dangerous. They can do a lot of damage in a fraction of a second.
Also common mistakes ime are not fully tightening adjustment knobs, forgetting what depth it has been set, and unexpected damage/ loss of control due to direction of grain. Another obvious thing to look out for is not putting it down with the cutter still spinning and the plunge locked down. They can also chuck a lot of shit into your eyes.
Talk to me about bits
Is it a case of buying cheap, seeing what bits I do actually use before investing?
Probably best value when starting out is the selection boxes that Trend sell - a box of 8 -10 bits that cover most eventualities for the price of 3 or 4 if you bought them individually.
You can get cheaper sets but the Achilles heal is cheap bearings which can sheer off - which is a great way to suddenly ruin all your hard work. I would avoid buying cheap for anything that has a bearing on it - the bearings on better quality cutters are still a bit rubbish.
As you suggest - you'll wear out the ones you use most so those are the ones worth spending a bit more money on when you replace.
Ear and eye protection is the first priority for me they scream at just the right rpm to drive my ears nuts. And I've seen a cutter lose a blade (miss use)
Clamps lots of clamps good double sided tape for templates or even hot glue but still clamps.
Don't underestimate the vibration on the effects of cheap clamps.
Never be tempted to pull the cutter shank out of the collet for "just that few more MM of cut"
Direction of cut and grain will get you a lot on some hardwoods walnut and ash will kick like a pig beach is lovely to machine it's almost plastic.
Get the trend resin cleaner the eco friendly one use it on all your tct tools.
Make your own plastic radius tools basically a straight edge with a centre point that you bolt the router too.
They are very versatile tools but to understand how dangerous a 1/2 70mm 2 flute cutter can be I locked up the cutters in the last place I ran and checked the set up of some of the staff after an incident. it stoped them nicking the exotic stuff I had custom made too.
Take your time and you're fine extraction will be an issue if hand held that's why I mostly use a table now
Ear and eye protection is covered, all this talk of safety I’m likely to wear my chainsaw trousers!
@ernielynch those courses look great but very very far away. I’ve not seen anything locally either, might take another look at the Edinburgh area, I cant make regular evening courses which makes that option difficult.
So, clamps then. I’ve been using Irwin Quick Clamps for a few jobs, are they robust enough for the job?
Direction of cut and grain will get you a lot on some hardwoods walnut and ash will kick like a pig beach is lovely to machine it’s almost plastic.
Get the trend resin cleaner the eco friendly one use it on all your tct tools.
It’s going to be a while before I get near anything decent. I have a project lined up with is replacement for some shelving. But each shelf will be its own little “box” so I can try different things (e.g. pullout trays that work as a shoe rack, deep drawers that get used as a linen basket/rubbish bin etc). But that’s not going to be made out of anything expensive as there will be mistakes in design and build.
That approach also fits in well with available time, making each element a much smaller project time wise.
Understanding cutter rotation and feed direction is key for me in avoiding accidents. I've seen a lot of gnarly stuff happen when this isn't understood.
This article goes into it.
It's easy to get confused when you switch from hand-held work to table work.
As a general rule, always cut AGAINST the direction of cutter rotation.
I’ve been using Irwin Quick Clamps for a few jobs, are they robust enough for the job?
I would have thought so.
On the subject of courses, our local family run tool store runs their own router courses.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bessey-TG25-2K-9-84in-4-72in-cast-Iron/dp/B000JLSNZ4/ref=mp_s_a_1_13?keywords=Bessey&qid=1648581179&s=diy&search-type=ss&sr=1-13
My current fave for low profile head clamps a finer thread would make them easier to use one handed.
I think I’d missed those replies.
I’ve only seen them as I think I’m developing some sort of obsession with clamping options…
Can you have too many clamps, is that a thing?