MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
I concede that [i]even among members[/i] there was a (as good as) majority in favour Jezza (49%), that majority grew through registered members (84 %) and affiliated members (58%) many of whom do not hold the same tenets of the Labour Party.
Notwithstanding the various arseholes such as myself throwing our votes in the ring for the price of a pint, it's apparent that those that back Jeremy, DO NOT back the Labour Party. Jezza's lot are for different ideology, and rather than ride on the back of an incumbent, they should define their politic and seize what votes they deserve.
It's obtuse to claim that the Labour Party are both SDP and SWP in outlook. It's time for a split to preserve one or the other, and it's time for the SWP to stand on their own two feet, fight for themselves, rather than freeload.
They get power and roll out left wing policies?
Do you think Eagle realises she's just cannon fodder before the real battle for the Labour party?
Cannon fodder suggests an endless supply of expendable casualties. If there's one thing the plotters are lacking it's willing volunteers to go over the top.
And a plan.
That's two things then.
@Stoner my 2p is that the Labour Party has been hijacked by a combination of SWP and Momentum - in many cases it being the same thing as a party within a party is not allowed.
Theresa May is on Newsnight talking about corporate reform to make society more equal. Whether she actually means it or not, time will tell
What a surprise Tory leader kicking ball into an open goal vacated by Labour's lurch to fhe left and the collapse of the LibDems.
BTW Faisal Islam today said the Tories "were Western democracy's most successful election winning machine" now where have I heard that before ?
Angela Eagle said today that Cornyn wanted immediate trigger of Article 50 so if there was a HE with him as Leader that would be another strange twist, a Labour Party campaigning for immediate Brexit ? Does he have a plan we could see 😉
[quote=Stoner ]It's obtuse to claim that the Labour Party are both SDP and SWP in outlook. It's time for a split to preserve one or the other,Which is it? The current party either [i]does[/i] have both SDP and SWP outlooks [i]or[/i] there is no need for a split
That's two things then.
I did LOL, and there's now rum & snot on the keyboard.
Which is it? The current party either does have both SDP and SWP outlooks or there is no need for a split
too much rum, Onion. Cannot compute.
I concede that even among members there was a (as good as) majority in favour Jezza (49%), that majority grew through registered members (84 %) and affiliated members (58%) many of whom do not hold the same tenets of the Labour Party.
Let's add some context to that statement.
The total amount of votes Corbyn got from registered supporters (I know that's what you meant) was 41,217. The total vote he got from everyone was 251,417.
So even if all registered supporters who voted for Corbyn were either SWP members or Tories their affect on the result was not significant.
It weren't them what won it.
Ernie - I wouldn't disagree for a second. Corbyn clearly has overwhelming support from party members.
Mind you, Nigel Farage had overwhelming support from his party members too, and what good did that do them at the last general Election?
Do you think Eagle realises she's just cannon fodder before the real battle for the Labour party?
Labour doesn't remember the decent tradition of the stalking horse, an honourable trade, Frank Field would have been ideal
Mind you, Nigel Farage had overwhelming support from his party members too, and what good did that do them at the last general Election?
Not a lot because no matter who the UKIP leader is people tend not to vote for UKIP.
It is generally accepted that Nigel Farage was UKIP's greatest asset. Replacing him wouldn't have helped them.
EDIT : Actually I withdraw that first comment - having Nigel Farage as leader did help UKIP, there's no doubt about that imo.
agreed Stoner....
Teamhurtmore - Member
I wish Corbyn would form a real left wing party. [b]He has a cat in bells chance of moving the LP significantly from the centre ground.[/b]Let's have a genuine socialist party and then we can see how much genuine support there is and what impact it can make.
[b]POSTED 12 MONTHS AGO #[/b]
But it wouldn't have been as much fun
Labour doesn't remember the decent tradition of the stalking horse, an honourable trade, Frank Field would have been ideal
Labour are just a bit sh*t at all this coup stuff. They should have done it to Blair when they realised he's gone mad, just like the Tories did to Maggie. And right now the Labour party look like they couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery. Problem is the Unions and too many people involved, look at the Unions right now moaning at wanting to wait till a week Tuesday till the NEC meet to decide what happens next, quick acting they aren't!
Jeremy Corbyn and his acolytes are concentrating their efforts on unseating Angela Eagle from her parliamentary seat in 4 years time for disloyalty
Hold on, hold on.
Is there any evidence Corbyn and his colleagues are actually doing this?
As far as I'm aware it's the local party that's doing it. Who aren't controlled by Corbyn. Don't get all tabloid on us binners.
Interesting report here in the Daily Telegraph :
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/11/angela-eagle-abandoned-by-media-in-favour-of-andrea-leadsom/ ]Angela Eagle urges voters to join Labour and help her oust Jeremy Corbyn before an election[/url]
[b][i] I believe I can. I’m not a Blairite. I’m not a Brownite. I’m not a Corbynista. I am my own woman. A strong Labour woman.” [/i][/b]
That's not a comment which the Daily Telegraph agrees with. From an article written in the Daily Telegraph when Angela Eagle was a Labour minister :
[b][i]The Brownite forces were commanded by Angela Eagle, a junior Treasury minister who failed to live up to her name. This was an Eagle which could not fly, and could only flap her wings in a despondent fashion as she trotted out the evasive Brownite reaction to the economic crisis: "It is undoubtedly caused by global events originating outside our borders." [/i][/b]
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/3419130/Commons-sketch-Brownite-troops-facing-their-Stalingrad.html ]Commons sketch: Brownite troops facing their Stalingrad[/url]
BTW the article continues with :
[i] Unfortunately for Miss Eagle, Mr Cable opened by quoting what she had said as recently as 2 April, when she accused the Liberal Democrats of tabling a motion which read "like the storyboard for Apocalypse Now, or perhaps even Bleak House", suggesting as it did that "we are facing an 'extreme bubble in the housing market' and the 'risk of recession'."
With what scorn Miss Eagle dismissed those fears: [b]"Fortunately for all of us...that colourful and lurid fiction has no real bearing on the macro-economic reality."[/b] [/i]
I believe I can. I’m not a Blairite. I’m not a Brownite. I’m not a Corbynista. I am my own woman. A strong Labour woman.”
Imagine if a bloke had said this and replaced "woman" with "man". How utterly droll.
To be fair, I could see Ed Milliband saying it.
it's apparent that those that back the Parliamentary Labour Party, DO NOT back the leader.
FTFY
I wonder what may have been if people had just got behind him?
Angela Eagle - voted for Trident, voted for the Iraq war and did not oppose the Tory welfare cuts. She's a typical neo-liberal politician and I suggest these are decisions that the new wave of Labour supporters do not approve of and is why Corby will go down fighting. He was voted in based on a different set of values.
Morning comrades!
Are the tractor production figures in yet?
Are the tractor production figures in yet?
Labour are going to adopt the Green Party agricultural policies and so tractors, red diesel etc are banned.
binners - Member
Morning comrades!Are the tractor production figures in yet?
No, but the elimination figures for the pesky underclass are on target.
Eagle was just on BBC Breakfast now in a bit of a strop. Deeply unimpressive stuff. Surely this is just a stalking horse campaign, whether she realises this or not?
If so, it won't achieve its aims as JC is refusing to go quietly. I can't see any option for the NEC which doesn't end up splitting the party.
@martinhutch - I agree. Very stroppy about being challenged about her previous voting habits. I.e. wasn't able to confidently defend her previous decisions and wanted to brush over them. Not very good imo.
Tractor production is up, every thing is awesome and you my dear leader are the best there ever will be....
So on the news this morning the 2 sides of the labour party are getting the lawyers in, and preparing to fight it out in the courts, like rats in a sack.
Its a bloody good job there's nothing important going on that might require an effective opposition. Maybe that requirement may be even more pressing than it was this time yesterday now the Tories have decided to forgo the arguing and get on with doing what they do.
No... we won't be doing that. We'll be setting about each other instead! And its going to drag on for the forceable future. Theresa May must think all her birthdays and christmases have come at once Because whatever she decides to do, she'll be doing it unencumbered by anything as inconvenient as an opposition. Which is handy.
Everyone should perhaps sit down and read this....
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Its funny, yet not. The last time the Militant lefties hijacked the Labour party led to 18 years in the political wilderness, where the Tories got to do what they liked. What is it they say about those who don't learn from history?
@Binners...do you support Angela Eagle?
Edit: Just seen your last post. You're clearly a closet Tory/Blairite..oh well.
If Angela Eagle isn't a stalking horse, and she's the proper candidate then the labour party really is ****ed! Between her or Corbyn its a case of would you like your huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread?
On Today, the opinion polls are saying if the Tories called an election now, they'd absolutely walk it.
Don't worry though. Len McCluskey is on saying 'don't worry about the polls......'
Which shows you exactly where the labour party is presently as regards being electable.....
it's not a priority
would you like your huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread?
There's a lovely little artisan bakery in Islington that makes the most divine sourdough, dahhling.
Breadist ! (burn the class traitor etc)
I wonder what may have been if people had just got behind him?
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I'm not sure what your worried about Binners? May has clearly staked her claim to the centre ground. Lots of Milliband type slogans etc. Just vote May at the next election if you think Labour are too lefty or have no chance of winning.
Interesting how its seen as an own goal for Labour to leave the (left of) centre ground and the Tories to occupy it. I wonder if Labour moved further to the left would the Tories follow ?
. I wonder if Labour moved further to the left would the Tories follow ?
They will go far enough to appeal to enough people to get elected. It's what any party who wants to take power in a majority need to do.
Its a bloody good job there's nothing important going on that might require an effective opposition. Maybe that requirement may be even more pressing than it was this time yesterday now the Tories have decided to forgo the arguing and get on with doing what they do.
That reflects the differences in where the parties draw their talent* from. The Conservatives draw from people who start and run their own businesses - people who are driven towards a goal and will get on with doing whatever they need to in order to get there. The Labour Party draws from people whose idea of success is sitting in a draughty hall signalling more virtue than the identical argumentalist sat next to them - they would much rather fight amongst themselves than make the world a better place.
* relatively speaking and excluding careerists on either side
CTK - do you [b]*really*[/b] mean to recruit for the conservatives rather than see a moderate Labour Party? If so, give them a call on (0) 20 7222 9000 I'm sure that they would let you hand out some leaflets.
Unfortunately Cranberry, I think you're right.
When the Brexit vote came in the other week, which party did you expect to collapse into infighting? The Tories. They haven't. Well... they have, but its been swift, brutal and decisive.
The present goal of various factions of the labour party is to score minor points against each other, Peoples Front of Judea style, which are of no consequence to anyone outside the party.
The Tories only have one goal. Power. Attaining it, then holding on to it.
The present labour party appears to have not the remotest interest in that.
We can sit and have an endless discussion about that treacherous bastard Blair though. Thats where the future lies
Tragic!
Labour need an aspirational message. Corbyn has predictably failed as he is not a leader, he is not a candidate of optimism, he is not forward looking. His whole career has been about protest and not following the party line, as per cranbury's post above - he's a world champion argumentalist
With what scorn Miss Eagle dismissed those fears: "Fortunately for all of us...that colourful and lurid fiction has no real bearing on the macro-economic reality."
Sadly for Labour ernie of the two candidates Corbyn and Eagle she has the greater economic credibility
[b]Reg:[/b] All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Blairites ever done for us?[b]Attendee:[/b] Brought peace?
Err, OK, that might not totally work as an example.
There are reports they were going to cal lthe programme "Corbyn - the first year", but changed it in case he doesn't make a full year.
Guess the theme song to the Blairite's...
'There's no other way' by Blur.
I do hope this obsession with middle ground, neo-liberal politics goes soon and people have the confidence to have distinctly different parties that are true to their beliefs..maybe then we'd get rid of all the lies they have to peddle to cover up their true motives....
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"Bastard wall, I'll make it learn".
How about something to the left of Blair, but to the right of Corby? A sort of pragmatic compromise arrangement?
I can guarantee that if you suggested that to either faction, they'd just tell you to **** off!!!
So its difficult to see where you go from here. Well.... its not. It's easy. Permanent, unopposed Tory government. I just can't cope with thinking about that at the moment 😥
he's a world champion argumentalist
Takes one to know one.
Radio four had it right this morning. The Tories sorted their house out with brutal efficiency, while labour have formed a committee and are staging a sit-in.
If this is true it's bizarre that Labour are so unorganised.
[i]So outrageously inept is Jeremy Corbyn’s regime that Labour failed to mount a fight last week against the £1,200 charge for employment tribunals, which has seen a 70% fall in claims. Richard Burgon, the new shadow lord chancellor, simply missed its huge significance, and with no whip the government won by an astounding 135.[/i]
Also I think it's safe to say Eagle is a stalking-horse, probably a good job as she is not PM material for sure.
I do hope this obsession with middle ground, neo-liberal politics goes soon and people have the confidence to have distinctly different parties that are true to their beliefs
so what are their beliefs...
..maybe then we'd get rid of all the lies they have to peddle to cover up their true motives....
...and motives?
Very strange, but also strange that Labour MPs would vote any other way but against. What the hell were they thinking!If this is true it's bizarre that Labour are so unorganised.
What the hell were they thinking!
You credit the present labour party with 'thinking'? 😆
The factions are so concentrated on their petty little civil war that the Tories could walk this type of policy through the house all day, every day, painted purple, with balloons and streamer hung off it, and they wouldn't notice
but also strange that Labour MPs would vote any other way but against.
Strange as it sounds, many MPs haven't got a clue about upcoming parliamentary business. They have to be whipped into the lobbies or they just sit around in the bar badmouthing Jeremy. No effective whip system - no voting.
Takes one to know one.
😀
The Tories sorted their house out with brutal efficiency, while labour have formed a committee and are staging a sit-in.
This is hardly a surprise. Labour, despite recent events, are still a democratic party, it's central to their ideology and structure. The tories however, only listen to members as a courtesy. They are a ruthless machine designed to win power. The power in the tories rests with the old boys club and the 1922 committee. Nothing happens without their approval, and they have the power to appoint and unseat prime ministers pretty easily. The labour party used to have backroom power brokers in the form of the unions, but their influence was diluted by successive new labour leaders in favour of the members and MPs. Democracy is great right up to the point where it doesn't work.
hels - Member
The Tories sorted their house out with brutal efficiency
I think the Labour PLP have been piss poor, if they stuck forward their best candidate instead of Eagle it could have been sorted out quicker.
I am pro Corbyn but cant really see a way back, I feel the PLP should be made to pay! MWAA HA HA !
I think the Labour PLP have been piss poor, [b]if they stuck forward their best candidate[/b] instead of Eagle it could have been sorted out quicker.
Who?
Labour are a ****ing disgrace. Sad thing is I don't relly see a credible alternative to Eagle or Corbyn in the current crop. SNP looking like the only effective opposition at the moment. Do the LibDems still have any MPs?
I think the Labour PLP have been piss poor, if they stuck forward their best candidate instead of Eagle it could have been sorted out quicker.
If they had just got on with their jobs instead of working against their leader it might never have come to this.
Honestly. I keep saying this but it seems pretty obvious that all this drama is a direct result of the actions of the PLP. They deserve to lose and humiliatingly so. If they do get rid of Corbyn they will still lose.
And yeah, if you aren't going to vote Tory vote for someone else. FFS we managed it up here, we have one MP a piece from the "major" parties. Vote Green or Libs or whatever, grow some balls and vote properly instead of this tactical cop-out nonsense.
Who?
As I said I am pro Corbyn but surely there are 50 better than Eagle?
Dan Jarvis? Widowed ex serviceman gets my vote [/swoon] I know nothing about him though.
Chuka? Chuka is happy enough to say whats wrong with Corbyn- step up!
A lot of Labour members could be swayed by the prospect of someone who looks like they could smash an election. But nobody will be persuaded by Eagle who would, without a doubt, do worse in a G.E than Corbyn.
If they had just got on with their jobs instead of working against their leader it might never have come to this.Honestly. I keep saying this but it seems pretty obvious that all this drama is a direct result of the actions of the PLP. They deserve to lose and humiliatingly so. If they do get rid of Corbyn they will still lose.
100% agree. Burnham can do it, why not anybody else?. All the people who wouldn't work with Corbyn from the beginning can shoulder the blame for the situatiuon Labour is in. A united and diverse team from the outset would have been smashing the Tories by now.
And lets not forget it was Corbyn, Kendal, Cooper or Burnham to choose from. Corbyn was the most impressive by a mile!
I imagine most general leadership candidates realise that its best to be the next-but-one leader. The last leadership contest had some decent candidates not least Andy Burnham. However, he can see its best to be Mayor of Manchester. Momentum has re-created the toxic Labour Party of the 1980's - it took all Kinnocks efforts to set the stage for Blair/Brown. No one wants the Kinnock job.
Interestingly the momentum / Labour supporters webpages still refer to the 2015 contest.
Who on earth thought Party membership should be £48 whilst voting for a leader costs £3 - Labour are not fit to manage a p.ss up in a brewery
Dan Jarvis is clearly waiting for 2020.
It may all be a bit like this by the time he wakes up, though.
Andy Burnham has played a blinder in 'doing a Sadiq'. Remaining nominally (but vocally) loyal but at the same time extricating himself from the impending car crash. He'll walk the Manchester mayoral elections, I imagine he'll do a really good job, then he's ready to take over the leadership when labour goes down to its heaviest ever electoral defeat at the next GE.
One thing he's proving (like Sadiq just did) is that he's better at politics than the rest of the labour party
If they had just got on with their jobs instead of working against their leader it might never have come to this.Honestly. I keep saying this but it seems pretty obvious that all this drama is a direct result of the actions of the PLP. They deserve to lose and humiliatingly so. If they do get rid of Corbyn they will still lose.
Abso-flippin-lutely.
jambalaya - Member
The last leadership contest had some decent candidates not least Andy Burnham
Andy Burnham and who?
Burnham has failed in the last 2 leadership elections he seemed to freeze on both occasions.
Cooper: Zero chance of winning anything ever!
Kendal: Would appeal to the Tories, but got 2% of vote from Labour members.
they would much rather fight amongst themselves than make the world a better place.
That's not true, even though it looks like it. The Labour party does want to change the world for the better, why else would anyone become a labour mp? Why else would anyone want to give more money to the state?
They just aren't usually very good at changing the world, that's the problem.
If they had just got on with their jobs instead of working against their leader it might never have come to this.
Yeah except Corbyn has spend 30 years plus not working with his colleagues, so understandably they aren't that warm to him. FFS he backed Benn against Kinnock despite Kinnocks 'mandate' so Corbyn can't talk. Loyalty goes 2 ways. Can you imagine if you'd had a work colleague who spent all his time fighting you and the company strategy? I doubt you'd be rushing to work for him either.
Andy Burnham has played a blinder in 'doing a Sadiq'. Remaining nominally (but vocally) loyal but at the same time extricating himself from the impending car crash. He'll walk the Manchester mayoral elections, I imagine he'll do a really good job, then he's ready to take over the leadership when labour goes down to its heaviest ever electoral defeat at the next GE.
Momentum and the Unions are backing Tony Lloyd to be the Labour candidate so it is quite likely he wont be a candidate.
Andy has always seemed to me to be a great guy who is so scared of saying the wrong thing, that he says nothing - which post Milliband and the 2015 GE wasn't going to work.
Same for a lot of these 'centrists' (which in my mind is just a way of saying I want everyone to be able to vote for me, so I can't offend either side).
It's like they know that being in the centre is how to win an election, but they just don't know what policies will be considered in that way, so they go along with war, they go along with remain, they go along with cuts, but then as soon as the public seem to have had enough, they suddenly get all righteous and blame it all on the Tories.
Do we think they'll try and keep Corbyn off the ballot ? Seems a nuclear option so I say no.
@ctk yes Cooper and Kendell (not enough experience yet). Tom Watson is biding his time as is Hillary Benn.
Edit: if Labour want to win they'll have to find a way to put Blair/Iraq behind them, well behind them. The last Labour government had very tough anti-terror laws, the current party would do well to do the same. Those policies didn't lose any votes.
Momentum and the Unions are backing Tony Lloyd to be the Labour candidate so it is quite likely he wont be a candidate.
So Tony Lloyd gets himself parachuted into another cushy well-paid number after being elected Police Comissioner to manchester, then immediately appointing his campaign manager to be his deputy on an enormous salary, despite neither of them having any knowledge of policing.
Hurray for the reformed labour party under Jeremy eh? More 'jobs for the boys' then? 🙄
If they keep Corbyn off the ballot, then 160,000 people who've joined since September 2015 will be rethinking their party membership.
While Corbyn doesn't come across as being terribly charismatic, there's been a massive surge in people who see the left as offering a solution to a great many problems that Thatcherism can't answer.
If they keep Corbyn off the ballot, then 160,000 people who've joined since September 2015 will be rethinking their [s]party membership[/s] £3.
So what ?
I suspect the 160,000 are not £48 party members but £3 "rent-a-vote's"
Do we think they'll try and keep Corbyn off the ballot ? Seems a nuclear option so I say no.
Well to be precise they will require him to be nominated, which may amount to the same thing. It seems to be their only chance of success so I think they will try, but the rules look pretty clear to me, he doesn't need to be nominated.
They'd need to change the rules, and I'm not sure they've even got the necessary majority on the NEC to do that. Unions were apparently flying delegates back from their 5-star villas to make sure.
If they keep Corbyn off the ballot, then 160,000 people who've joined since September 2015 will be rethinking their party membership.
I doubt they're members. They're Ernie and his three quid communists, and should **** off and form their own party if they're so convinced of their electoral appeal. Rather than re-run the Militant Tendancy disaster of the 80's all over again. Because the results will be the same. Endless Tory rule, allowed to do what it wants, unopposed. We've even got the female PM in place ready.
Because one things for bloody sure. In all these chancers, lining up behind Corbyn, with their own dubious hard left agendas there will be a fair old amount of people like this. Seriously.... even Ernie must be honest in asking is this what we want to return too....
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Bargain-bin, rabble-rousing, posturing demagogues with their self-glorifying, bollocks-to-everyone agendas? Seriously? Because thats where it'll end
If they use the word 'Members' then it can't refer to the £3ers - they are 'Supporters' afaik
You'd think he has to be, and then when he wins again all hell breaks loose. All the while the Tories are un-opposed.
In fact if you were a radical PM now is a perfect time to smash through as many controversial policies as possible the next election is still far away and opposition at its weakest.
Here's an article (no doubt partial, but interesting nevertheless) on how Angela Eagle got to be elected:
http://wire.novaramedia.com/2016/07/how-angela-eagle-got-to-be-mp-for-wallasey/
and [b]motives[/b]
@thm....oh the irony... 😀
In all these chancers, lining up behind Corbyn, with their own dubious hard left agendas there will be a fair old amount of people like this.
I keep seeing this written, yet I'm not aware of what makes Corbyn "hard left".