Jeremy Corbyn

Although I'm sure you will question the validity of the poll.

Well it was obviously biased as they asked people who weren't in favour, which is tantamount to sympathising with terrorists, if not worse.

I hadn't seen the one in the Independent - but I would agree YouGuv isn't conclusive because the polling companies look for balance across the whole sample and it won't always follow that the regional subsets are statistically valid, but I was surprised when I saw it. The "narrative" from the SNP was very much that the Socts had a very different attitude - but they would say that wouldn't they.

And you jambalaya, are such a gift to all lefties on here

I feel you should be on my christmas card list.

People here seem to need a Pantomime villian and so it's all good fun really. Ignoring me means you all get to blame the right wing press and political donations etc for things you don't like rather than acknowledge theyre are compelling counter arguments.

@kona - JC said all the deaths where the result of ... therefore included Henning

@tmh, all well, here in Paris partly so Mrs B can vote in the regional elections - looks like first round will be 30% FN, 30% UMP, 20% PS so the socilaists are unlikely to make it into the second round next week in many of the new super-districts. Then winners will be decided not least based upon whether socialists will vote for the UMP to keep FN out. FN predicted to win Calais and Provence at least. Pretty stunning in one of Europes most left leaning countries.

It is. You can't simply confirm or refute an argument based on the credibility of the person stating it.

I have a nigerian uncle who just needs your help e-mail on its way.

rich-mars - Member
But who are the trolls?

The ones with the bloody great planks in their eyes - the chief and his posse have their favourite well in truly in their sights at the moment, despite pretending to ignore him. Sad, but hardly new. Always someone to pick on.

Thanks for the biblical reference

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

Glad you are above all the playing the man stuff.

As for pretending to ignore well really THM oh the irony. 😆

Another THM standard response aka 'If you can't win an argument, just dismiss everyone in it as beneath you'.

People here seem to need a Pantomime villian and so it's all good fun really.

That's a pretty obvious admission of trolling ^^^^ (which is against the forum rules might I remind you 😉 ).

And yes I try and ignore him (because of the constant trolling and refusal to accept factual evidence) but sometimes I end up seeing bits of his posts here and there. Not got round to doing the killfile thing yet.

@ernie, I have a rule never to troll, I certainly don't bother to try and dress up my posts in political correctness though.

@footflaps I think in 3 years you could count the arguments I've lost / been on the losing side here on the fingers of one hand, ie 4 or less 🙂 i can't think of a single one either where anyone has posted facts to prove me wrong. I suspect the EU referendum I'll come oit on the wrong side of in 2017, lets see but the Remain posters here have the upper hand result wise I think

Back to one of my favourites from 18 months ago which was that immigration would be a serious election issue and that UKIP wouod be a threat to the left. As I'm watching the results show in the French regional elections we have in Calais an area historically PS (left wing - Hollande) the first round results are

FN 40.7% (Le-Pen)
UMP 25% (Sarkozy)
PS 18%

So The socialists are out and unless their voters vote for "Sarkozy" in the run-off Le Pen will win (which was predicted befire the September attacks). They look elsewhere too.

outofbreath - Member

It is. You can't simply confirm or refute an argument based on the credibility of the person stating it.

...but even if it wasn't playing the man rather than the argument isn't very nice

You seem to misunderstand what happened there. Jamba told a blatant lie, which was refuted almost immediately with transcripts and video of what Corbyn actually said. Pointing out someone's lies is neither an ad hom or playing the man.

@ernie, I have a rule never to troll

That's very interesting I'm sure, but I have never accused you of trolling so I don't know why you feel the need to tell me.

You seem to misunderstand what happened there.

You're going to have to post the words I said that make it 'seem' that way because I can't see anything. I said trolls use the ad hom a lot and I defended the idea that the as hom fallacy is an err, fallacy.

Wasn't any misunderstanding in the words you quoted by me.

Ah, so you were just making a random observation about ad hom attacks, not referring to anything in particular? REason I ask is, looking over the last bit of the thread, I can't see what else you could be depicting as ad homs...

Mr Corbyn, who was speaking at a Stop The War rally, said: “I am pleased that we started with a period of silence for Alan Henning and all those others that have died in this appalling conflict.
“Because we have to remember them and remember that the price of war, the price of intervention, the price of jingoism is somebody else's son and somebody else's daughter either being killed or being killed by somebody else.”

Okay, well, let's take it one step at a time. Is it true or false that

Corbyn [said] that [Henning's] death was the "result of warmongering and jingo-ism"?

@kona - JC said all the deaths where the result of ... therefore included Henning

Do you genuinely not understand the meaning of those words or do you just think you can brazen it out? 😀

My mistake in these regional elecrions any party wth 12.5% makes fhe run off (unlike Presidential elections which are onky the top 2). Still left are so far back its hard to imagine they can recover

More preliminary results in and previously left wing areas have them relegated to third in all except Brittany.

A real lesson for Labour, and indeed Tories, here as in 2007 Front Nationale polled just 7%, they are now at 35-40%

I have a rule never to troll, I certainly don't bother to try and dress up my posts in political correctness though.

@footflaps I think in 3 years you could count the arguments I've lost / been on the losing side here on the fingers of one hand, ie 4 or less i can't think of a single one either where anyone has posted facts to prove me wrong.

Brilliant and of course not just like I have a rule never to copy and paste. 😆

There Is one on this thread of you being wrong but as KB notes you brazen it out so they dont just count.

Once I realised what you were up to I have really started to appreciate what you do.

, I can't see what else you could be depicting as ad homs...

You think the most ad hom-esque thing this thread is someone pointing out a fake quote?

Do you know what ad him means?

I did say "the last bit of the thread". Though for some mysterious reason you decided to cut that off when you quoted me.

Just explain why you think pointing out an incorrect quote is an ad hom.

What about the Alistair Carmichael thread,where you insisted NS had backed Cameron,despite the fact she clearly didn't or the thread you started to abuse Alex Salmond for giving most of his salary to charity? If that is your idea of a win,the bar must be set really low.

outofbreath - Member

Just explain why you think pointing out an incorrect quote is an ad hom.

I don't.

Northwind- member

Pointing out someone's lies is neither an ad hom or playing the man.

See?

@kona, I'm with the Telegragph on this one, not "brazening" anything out. I'm with the Guardian and Tristan Hunt on the Stop the War lot as I posted on the Syria thread. I'd see that as clear political neutrality in terms of source.

In no way shape or form would I ever see the murder of a volunteer aid worker as having equal status to his murderer or any other IS militant, not in any regard. So as I said I'm with the Telegrapgh the remarks where disgraceful.

I see Corbyn has been getting the message in that he Tweeted very promptly after the terrorist stabbing to say it was shocking and his thoughts where with the victim. He skipped the sympathy for the attacker and his motives and skipped blaming jingo-ism.

Bit random to cite it in a response to a post about ad homs then.

In no way shape or form would I ever see the murder of a volunteer aid worker as having equal status to his murderer or any other IS militant, not in any regard. So as I said I'm with the Telegrapgh the remarks where disgraceful.

@footflaps I think in 3 years you could count the arguments I've lost / been on the losing side here on the fingers of one hand, ie 4 or less

Alternatively, you could have a poor memory, inability to count, or extreme reluctance to admit when you're wrong.

FN 40.7% (Le-Pen)
UMP 25% (Sarkozy)
PS 18%

A good question, the old FN of 10 years ago it would have been the BNP, now its much more mainstream with a mix of UKIP style nationalistic and socialistic policies. Opponents try to protray FN (and UKIP) as extreme right wing parties but their strategy is far braoder than that. FN have made their bigggest gains in areas which have traditionally voted for the left. In the local elections last year they won councils which had previously been communist as voters switched.

My only rationale for making the comparisons is to point out that underestimating such a threat and/or assuming it will only hurt the traditional right wing parties is a mistake. FN is really hurting the left wing vote

So what happens in France must happen here 😕

Alternatively, you could have a poor memory, inability to count, or extreme reluctance to admit when you're wrong.

If Labour want to form a government Corbyn was absolutely the wrong choice, that's somehting recognised by pretty much all of the senior figures, past and present, in the Labour party. Aside from his Trotskiest policies he never conducted his political career as anyhtung but a protest politician, he took no regard with his statements amd his actions as he never expected to be a leader. As such his cupboard is jam packed with skeletons. As a rebel and political outsider he has very little political support amongst MPs. Having the name badge saying "leader" doesnt mean you are automatically in charge

the vast majority of them don't post regularly or at all on these political threads.

The anonymity of that thread allowed them to do so without feeling public embarrassment. 🙂

jambalaya - Member

i can't think of a single one either where anyone has posted facts to prove me wrong.[/b]

At least twice in this thread alone 😆

@ransos its hard to be wrong in an argument about politics as numerous different views are perfectly legitimate.

You appear to be responding to something I haven't said. But anyway, you keep telling yourself that.

@ransos its hard to be wrong in an argument about politics as numerous different views are perfectly legitimate.

But it's very easy to post a pack of lies. As you consistently prove.

If Labour want to form a government Corbyn was absolutely the wrong choice, that's somehting recognised by pretty much all of the senior figures, past and present, in the Labour party.

So democracy is an illusion then, that's what you're saying effectively?

@ransos its hard to be wrong in an argument about politics as numerous different views are perfectly legitimate.

This is something you fail to understand and then just tell us all how you are alway correct

How many folk are calling you a liar? It may be water of a ducks bath but i am nit sure how many folk need to do it to get you to reflect on the drivel you post on here

Its almost like you wear it a sa badge that numerous folk are basically just saying liar . They are right what you say and what the facts really are are rarely even fleetingly related as this thread and your crass comments on the flooding shows

I dont expect you to change but the reaction is because what you say is often factually wrong and for you to say you are never wrong is either top trolling or desperately., desperately tragic

I suspect ignore your shit and letting grown up chat may be the best response here

jambalaya - Member
I think in 3 years you could count the arguments I've lost / been on the losing side here on the fingers of one hand, ie 4 or less

That is wonderful! 😆

So democracy is an illusion then, that's what you're saying effectively?

No he is not, his sentence has a condition and it has to be read in the context of that condition.

Aside from his Trotskiest policies he never conducted his political career as anyhtung but a protest politician

2) Corbyn is regarded as having been one of the best and most responsive constituency MPs out there. (Let's face it, it's not like ministerial positions have ever taken up much of his time). Do you think that is merely being a protect politician? George Galloway I would consider to be a classic protest politician of no substance.

which exactly are Corbyn's Trotskyite policies?

The non Leninist ones.

And presumably not the ones that he espouses in his regular Morning Star column.

To be fair I doubt that jambalaya really knows what he means by "Trotskiest policies", and simply used the term because he has seen Trotskyist being used as an insult and derogatory term in newspapers such as the Telegraph and Daily Mail.

used as an insult and derogatory term in newspapers such as the Telegraph and Daily Mail.

George Galloway I would consider to be a classic protest politician of no substance.

Are you questioning his indefatigability?

I'd go so far as to suggest he's been fagitated on several occasions.

So democracy is an illusion then, that's what you're saying effectively?

JY no of course whats happemed in France need not happen here but it would seem wise to take note. For the first time ever the North which was a left wing heartland (its the poorest area in France) has voted FN with the socilaists a distant 3rd. Some analysis on TV showed the FN have become the preferred party of the working class in many regions. The FN are anti immigration, anti EU/euro but they have generous welfare proposals - the basic message is this money should go to people who speak the language, embrace the culture and not to incoming foreigners.

George Galloway I would consider to be a classic protest politician of no substance.

You admire him for his skills in manipulating people (I.e. politics) rather than his decency and honesty?

I think the problem here is that your understanding of what politics should be about is different to most of us. You think it's a game to win, don't you?

[quote=jambalaya ]Corbyn is popular with the party faithful, but reinforcing their vote won't win Labour an election. Labour need to win votes in marginal constituencies.And he could do that by engaging with voters who won't turn out for the Tories [i]or[/i] the Blairite Labour party.

And he could do that by engaging with voters who won't turn out for the Tories or the Blairite Labour party

And he could do that by engaging with voters who won't was out for the Tories or the Blairite Labour party.

Nope, "more or less" on Radio four covered that. Not enough voters in the right place for that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p032804x

Corbyn is popular with the party faithful, but reinforcing their vote won't win Labour an election.

Corbyn being party leader didn't seem to bother voters in Oldham last week, in fact the Labour share of the vote increased. And yes Labour won.

Labour need to win votes in marginal constituencies.

Well that's what you personally claim but like many things that say it isn't necessarily true. Although you would say that wouldn't you.

Personally I don't think Labour needs to "win" votes to get a majority in parliament next general election, certainly not from the Tories.

Unprecedented apathy has descended on British politics in recent decades. What Corbyn needs to do to tilt the next general election in Labour's favour is to energize traditional Labour supporters who no longer bother voting due to the belief that "they're all the same", thanks largely to Tony Blair and New Labour.

And there is some evidence that Corbyn's leadership has energized politics - in two ways in fact imo.

Firstly the Oldham by-election showed some re-energizing of politics. Some feel that the 40% turnout was disappointing but in fact it was a very good turnout for a December by-election in a safe Labour seat.

Almost exactly 3 years ago when Ed Miliband was Labour leader there was a by-election not far away from Oldham in the safe Labour seat of Manchester Central, the turnout on that occasion was 18%, less than half the turnout in Oldham.

And the high Oldham turnout resulted in Labour getting a higher share of the vote - it seems very much that Labour supporters felt motivated despite the almost certainty of a Labour win.

Secondly, tens of thousands have joined the Labour Party since Corbyn became leader, the importance of troops on the ground during the election campaign and on election day cannot be over emphasized imo. Getting out your vote on election day can easily tilt a marginal seat in your favour.

Furthermore we now know that Labour Party members have a leader which they overwhelming support and believe in, probably for the first time in a very long time.

Large numbers of highly motivated and committed activists who see something which they can believe in, and feel is worth fighting for, are likely to achieve a different result to a handful of demoralized activists.

I have no idea if Labour will the general election in 2020 but I do believe that it isn't necessary to impress Tory voters that Labour make better Tories to win.

Not enough voters in the right place for that.

😆

EDIT : Do you understand what a Tory-Labour marginal means?

It means that there are a great deal of Labour voters.

And that it is vital from them to get out and vote on election day if Labour are to win. If not all as many as possible

What Corbyn needs to do to tilt the next general election in Labour's favour is to energize traditional Labour supporters who no longer bother voting

Some facts:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p032804x

Aside from his Trotskiest policies he never conducted his political career as anyhtung but a protest politician

1) which exactly are Corbyn's Trotskyite policies?

great conviction

Thanks outofbreath but I don't need to be told how important it is to get your supporters to actually vote on election day, I already know. And I've seen the result of success and failure.

It means that there are a great deal of Labour voters.

There are a great deal of Labour voters, this is true. 9,347,304 of them at the last national count.

However, Scotroutes was talking about "non-voters".

@ernie all good points the counter argument in Oldham where indeed the turnout was excellent for a by-election, was that Labour voters where 1) keen to endorse Corbyn and/or 2) terrified of a disastrous loss. In the end who knows and it was a very solid hold

Thanks outofbreath but I don't need to be told how important it is to get your supporters to actually vote on election day, I already know.

...when pre-conceived ideas meet facts.

..when pre-conceived ideas meet facts.

I think you'll find that it is a "fact" that if you manage to get 80% of your supporters to vote on election day you are more likely to win that if you only manage to get 70% of your supporters to vote, whatever some geezer on the BBC might have said.

I think the mistake of that BBC programme was to assume that middle class areas don't house a large number of disenfranchised voters.

Unfortunately I live in a tory stronghold 🙁 - my vote power is 0.1%

Unfortunately I live in a tory stronghold - my vote power is 0.1%

Do you really want to live in one of the red bits? 😯

[img] [/img]

[quote=konabunny spake unto the masses, saying][i]Aside from his Trotskiest policies he never conducted his political career as anyhtung but a protest politician[/i]
1) which exactly are Corbyn's Trotskyite policies?

He said "Trotskiest" politicies. I assume they are the ones Trotskier than all his other policies

Do you really want to live in one of the red bits?

Red bits are home, wish I was there now.

Do you really want to live in one of the red bits?

I already do. It's lovely.

I said it right near the beginning of this thread that for Labour to win the next election Tory voters have to move to Labour the data is clear. Yet ernie still won't go and crunch the data. Marginal seats matter most everyone knows it, apart from seemingly Corbyn and his supporters.

Do you really want to live in one of the red bits?

To be honest, where I live is very similar to those places, it's just that the political boundaries tie us in with Prestbury/Tytherington/Poynton
If I lived 500yds to the east I would have a voting power of 0.4 in a seat that changed from Lab to Con in 2010

If you overlay those red bits on the wilder parts of Britain, then I would say those are my ideal places to live.

Free of trolls though

The red bits are all inner city hell holes.

The red bits are all inner city hell holes.

Best keep away, then. Win win.

dragon - Member

I said it right near the beginning of this thread that for Labour to win the next election Tory voters have to move to Labour the data is clear. Yet ernie still won't go and crunch the data. Marginal seats matter most everyone knows it, apart from seemingly Corbyn and his supporters.

many that I spoke to simply thought that the Labour party had lost all direction. Myself included - voted green

Great idea lets take a very small self selecting group and apply the results to 60 million people. The Greens only came 2nd in two constituencies.

From the Fabian Society analysis:

Around 4 out of 5 of the extra (net) votes Labour will need to gain in English and Welsh marginals will have to come direct from Conservative voters.

It gives not real reason why this needs to happen and the point remains that the 9.5% swing it says is required in marginal seats coudl equally come from those who do not vote as they will be a larger % than the swing.

In each marginal seat, perhaps Labour will be able to gain 1,000 or so non-Tory votes
(over any gains the Conservatives make themselves). But that means at least 4 out of
5 extra votes will need to come from a (net) shift from current Conservative voters.

As far as I can tell they have not included non voters in their calculations and they claim only a 9.5 % swing is required in marginal seats

This can easily come from voters who currently dont vote

The article does not address, at any point, non voters so I dont think its reasonable to cite in countering this claim.

Around 4 out of 5 of the extra (net) votes Labour will need to gain in English and Welsh marginals will have to come direct from Conservative voters.

the article does cover that

far as I can tell they have not included non voters in their calculations and they claim only a 9.5 % swing is required in marginal seats

This can easily come from voters who currently dont vote

But converting a vote from your opposition is worth two votes (they lose one, you gain one) so relying on converting non-voters is more like trying to achieve a 19% swing.

Yebbut, you can't look at that and ignore the fact that they lost 40 seats in Scotland.

This, the best the Labour Party can hope for is a coalition with the SNP and thats fraught with danger for Labour as the SNP will only get stronger as a result. There doesn't seem a snowballs chance in hell Labour will win back more than a handful of those seats in 2020 and I suspect in May 2016 te SNP is going to give them a throoigh hiding in the Holyrood elections

On other business Caroline Lucas has stepped down from Stop the War Coalition saying that whilst shenis against air strikes in Syria she cannot support their stance on "other issues". Ball back in Corbyns coirt as to whether he attends their fundraiser. I expect joirnalists are researching StW speakers/members for those with terrorist sympathies so they can run the same headlines again with added spice( or dirt if you prefer) that Corbyn will be raising money with them.

and thats fraught with danger for Labour as the SNP will only get stronger as a result.

The journalist troll was a bit bit obvious, and from a member of hacked off a bit daft, in its desire to goad folK and I would be less blatant if I were you as not many seem to have spotted every post is designed for a reaction

FWIW i admire the one on the Quran where you did exactly what the OP was on about it, was touched by the hand of genius that one but this post 3/10 and that is mainly for effort.

Read a few more stories about Caroline Lucas. Seems it was a combination of a few controversial articles posted on their site which where subsequently withdrawn (one of which claimed Daesh was more like the International Army Hilary Benn referenced positively in his speech than the Labour Party !) Also a meeting at Westminster chaired by Diane Abbott where she refused to allow a Syrian speaker who wanted to speak in favour of air strikes.

Labour MP also hits the nail on the head with the statement that "Stop the War isnt so much anti war as anti West"

Quite something when the Green Party withdraw their supoort for an anti-war campaign group. Ball is firmly in Corbyn's court