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is it only anti-semitism that matters?
Whatabout...
Most of us have condemned repeatedly the abuse that Abbot receives.
We know racism is worse amongst the supporters of other parties. But, when responding to a report specifically about AS in Labour... accepting the findings and apologising should not include such whataboutisms... not the time and place.
Some of you have taken part in it.
Whataboutery is sometimes fatuous but sometimes it's just making a valid comparison or pointing out double standards - this is one of those times.
What you are doing is accepting and legitimising the fact that when unacceptable abuse can be used to denigrate the Labour Party, then it's fair game for exploitation.
Nobody is defending racism, directed towards Dianne Abbott, or anybody else
What we're saying is that when an independent enquiry concludes that under your 'leadership' (or lack of...) an atmosphere where racism was tolerated has developed and then not been adequately dealt with, a degree of contrition might be in order, and here's a crazy idea... an apology.
A proper apology, like you actually mean it. Not a sulking toddler saying 'sorry, not sorry'
Instead, telling everybody to stop being horrid to you isn't really the way to go
Though hardly unexpected
There are double standards. But an apology that moans about problems elsewhere is a dud apology. And as for complaining about the public thinking AS is far worse than it is in Labour... well a proper unqualified apology from Corbyn as regards the findings of the report would help to start to dispel that perception.
It's funny binners, I don't remember anti-semitism being a big issue for you until it became a useful stick to beat JC with. Remind me of your decades long history of fighting against racism?
But what good is it doing anybody other than De Pfeffel and his mates to keep banging on about it?
You seriously think they're going to shut up about it? AS will stalk Starmers leadership every bit as much as Corbyn's. They're already going after Angela Rayner and others in the party despite the apologies they and Starmer have made. They won't stop until the Starmer leadership goes the same way as the Corbyn one. The witchunt will continue, the slander will continue, and the failure of the labour party to defend itself will continue. This isn't going to stop because Starmer throws himself at the mercy of people who want to see him and the labour party destroyed.
It’s funny binners, I don’t remember anti-semitism being a big issue for you until it became a useful stick to beat JC with. Remind me of your decades long history of fighting against racism?
Does everyone have to publish a full list of their left-wing credentials before being allowed to criticise St Jeremy, or is it just me?
Because that, in itself, is actually potentially Binnersist 😛
So what should Starmer do? Say he doesn't accept the EHRC report findings? It's not up to him (or Corbyn or anyone else for that matter) to decide whether to accept them or not - the findings are what they are within the statutory remit of the EHRC. It's his job to act on them which he's doing. The rest is whataboutery and grum bling...
er, editing away attempted levity...
He’s had his previously impeccable reputation as an opponent of racism
sorry, his what? Corbyn has at the very least a personal blind spot when it comes to AS and at worst could reasonably use some advice. (some examples: celebrating murals depicting Jewish characters, standing on platform with people who think the blood libel is real, authoring glowing forwards to books written by avowedly anti Semitic authors)
so his credentials here are not “impeccable” by any standard
Mainly you because I don’t think you really give a toss about AS, apart from how it helps you to denigrate someone who, despite his flaws, has helped more people than you ever will.
That's a bold statement. You're actually saying there that I don't care about antisemitism?
Just to reiterate... That's what you're actually saying there.
I know you don't like me, and never miss an opportunity to have a dig, and frankly I couldn't give a monkeys what you think of me. But I really think that's a step too far and is glaringly offensive. As well as being untrue.
I'll give you a minute or two to edit that and apologise before I do something I've never done before and report a post on here
That’s a bold statement. You’re actually saying there that I don’t care about antisemitism?
I think you care far more about having a useful stick to beat JC with. That much is obvious.
Again... have a read back of what you're accusing me of here, and have a think about how that comes across, while you've still time to edit it and apoligise.
Theres no way I'm sitting back and have you throw accusations like that at me
Report away
Done
Theres no way I’m sitting back and have you throw accusations like that at me
Welcome to the club of being accused of things you're not. Not nice is it? That's the nature of witchunts, the more you protest your innocence, the more guilty you are. I think its about time everyone wound their necks in.
Indeed.
Stop making this about Binners, or yourself... it's not... it's about a report into AS in Labour that should have been accepted by all involved, and resulted in unqualified apologies from all with a senior role in Labour during the time the events unfolded. Others managed it. Corbyn thought that he couldn't, or shouldn't... whatever... his choice.
All I will say, is that posting lots on here is a sure sign of my deteriorating mental health. This is the only social media I still bother with, probably time to give this up too. I thought leaving FB would prevent getting into stupid arguments.
Indeed... let's stop this being personal.. it shouldn't be. None of us are the guy this thread is about. Comments on his actions should not be taken by anyone as a personal attack on anyone posting here. Those defending his actions should not be attacked personally for doing so.
Anyway, someone was asking last night what utopia looks like. Anyone interested in alternative solutions to the current deadend one way ticket to destruction should read the following..
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/murray-bookchin-post-scarcity-anarchism-1
or as a pdf..
It's a much more interesting subject than anti-semitism 😉
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I'll post a public reply to Binners' complaint as he's chosen to make the complaint public.
I've not read the whole thread and it looks like this argument has been simmering for several pages now at least. I do not believe that it's within our remit - or indeed, fair - to be picking sides in an ongoing spat. There's also an argument of "live by the sword," if you're going to choose to participate in heated debates about difficult subjects then you need to accept that others are going to argue back.
That said, personal abuse is in breach of the forum T&Cs. Is that what's happened here? Potentially, yes.
But the discussion has moved on since then, including discussing the accusation, making clean-up awkward and messy. Would making the last page disappear achieve anything?
So I'll just say this, as others have already suggested. Please play nicely people, this squabbling just creates more work and grief for us. If this carries on we won't be playing "he said she said" and trying to unpick it, we'll just give you both a holiday.
</mod>
Anyway, I thought you two were mates?
binners and I have kissed and made up via PM, and we are now lovers. Apologies for the sidetrack everyone.
Indeed. All sorted
We’ve just disappointed that with lockdown we couldn’t go out somewhere nice for dinner
Just a few beers would be nice.
I'm beginning to think this thread should be closed. It's a bit of an irrelevance now? Just like it's subject, it should be allowed a graceful retirement on the allotment.
Wise words.
Just like it’s subject, it should be allowed a graceful retirement on the allotment.
Some pictures of Jeremy at the allotment earlier, having reduced Labour's MPs to a sustainable number. 🙂
Stolen from elsewhere
I see we've arrived at the bi-annual festival of claiming a Labour party led by anybody who isn't Jeremy is indistinguishable from the Tories.
So, a quick summary of what moderate Labour party did. You can just skip forward to Iraq if you like, but the facts still remain...
https://twitter.com/threadreaderapp/status/1323298560226566145?s=2
Jonnyboi,
You should have copied and pasted that whole link. Well worth a look for any contributors to this thread.
Pah, that's not a revolution so I am out.
I should like to recommend that in the future politicians should be forced to invest in computers, printers and telephonic recording devices. How these clever trolls make all these awful threats and slurs without leaving evidence is a scientific wonder of the modern world.
Given his lack of ability to spell I'd like to see some fact checking on those claims.
But yes, New Labour definitely did some good and are massively preferable to what we have now. I don't see anyone claiming otherwise so it's yet another straw man.
I'd argue massively increasing the use of PFI was a disaster that he conveniently doesn't mention also.
But yes, New Labour definitely did some good and are massively preferable to what we have now. I don’t see anyone claiming otherwise
I do (dazh) If Starmer did similar things to Blair that would be no good and not worth voting for (i.e. keeping Tories in power instead of having Starmer because he is not a revolutionary)
Just gonna leave this here
Just gonna leave this here
Just gonna leave this here
Let me guess, that'd be Jerremy, Len and Seamus under that blanket.
The ginger ones are definitely Marxists!
Chairman Meow?
Grum wins.
So, a quick summary of what moderate Labour party did. You can just skip forward to Iraq if you like, but the facts still remain…
Excellent. Perhaps we could do a balance sheet to calculate how many dead brown people we should tolerate in return for Sure Start.
Perhaps we could do a balance sheet to calculate how many dead brown people we should tolerate in return for Sure Start.
Starmer is not Blair. Quite easy to picture him improving domestic policy, as Blair & Brown in some ways did, without going on some big USA attached international oil and family revenge war.
I never voted for Blair (or Brown, or Miliband) but I did vote for Corbyn, and I will vote for Starmer. He is not Blair2.
Starmer is not Blair. Quite easy to picture him improving domestic policy, as Blair & Brown in some ways did, without going on some big USA attached international oil and family revenge war.
I was responding to a post about new Labour: I made no comment about Starmer.
I’m just trying to encourage people to stop wallowing in the past, and engage with today. I agree with Dazh… time to let this thread gracefully retire.