Jeremy Corbyn

What @elephant says. Just watch Corbyn squirm on the Trident issue too.

Appearing on Marr with a hangover is probably not a wise strategy. More interesting to watch Watson's juggling (Trident, loyalty etc) but had to turn off when Gove appeared with his faux complements. Very nauseating - time for a quick lap of the Punchbowl I think?

I don't know how a Blarite should have been a bar to progress in Scotland. We had no bother sending 39 labour MP's out of 59 to Westminster in support of Blair AFTER the start of his illegal war in Iraq, when the rest of the UK was starting to see through him. We followed that up with sending an extra MP in 2010 in support of his successor. It seems the rUK electorate were possibly more angry with Blair's illegal war than we in Scotland were.

Labour now have a leader who wishes to get rid of the need for foodbanks in the UK and get rid of tuition fees for students. I know this is unpalatable to people who may not wish to see Scottish money spent on causes on the wrong side of the border.

On the luxury VAT things, where should we draw the line? Over 5k for anything thats not a car? Easy order from the EU. Cars - probably do the same. Yachts? well it was cheaper to fly to the south of France and sail it back.

[quote=teamhurtmore said]Appearing on Marr with a hangover is probably not a wise strategy.

Jezza's a teetotalist 🙂

Enjoy the Punchbowl !

Oops! Will do (and might bump into you one day. Wasn't you on Hankley with a bloke who looked like he-who-shall-not be mentioned yesterday was it?)

Corbyn is a nationalists nightmare. They would have liked a Blairite like Liz Kendalk in charge, and I don't doubt many McChe's hope he falls flat on his face.

I'd have thought the majority of mid-high end mountain bikes would be classed as a luxury, Canyon would like that 😉

[quote=teamhurtmore said]Oops! Will do (and might bump into you one day. Wasn't you on Hankley with a bloke who looked like he-who-shall-not be mentioned yesterday was it?)

Nope, due to a dodgy back I've only ridden offroad twice all summer 🙁

"More interesting to watch Watson's juggling (Trident, loyalty etc) but had to turn off when Gove appeared with his faux complements. Very nauseating"

I thought Watson and Gove both gave superb performances on Marr. Far better than Fallon yesterday.

I thought it was odd Corbyn didn't turn up on Marr but I figured this is going to be a busy day for him.

Corbyn is now inside the tent pissing out. 🙂

Enjoy thm, in Paris with terrible weather so no riding for me. Peaslake mtbo Oct 3 with my friend David if you can make it, would be a good chance the meet him if you can be patient enough to wait for me all morning.

Re Give's compliments the Tory lady minister on Sky yesterday was actually wearing a "#JezWeCan" badge !

85% of the £3 sign-ups voted for Corbyn, I sense a bit of mischievous behaviour

Don't think so. I think they were inspired to vote by him.

Yep I think the majority of those voting really do believe in him or are just incredibly disillusioned buy the alternatives. How that translates country wide will be seen in the months to come. It will be interesting to see not how gracious the losers are but the winners, if there is still scores to be settled or anger to the Blairites it will end badly/quickly. However if this is the stance of the labour party and their position then there are either MP's who can't morally stand or will just be towing the party line, should they be deselected?

Politics is all about the art of compromise. JC has enjoyed the freedom to be uncompromising with his fundamental principles. He won't have that now he's party leader and depending upon which compromises he makes will depend if he causes those who he has 'inspired' to vote for him decide to continue to follow him or accuse him of u-turning on a lot of his core principles. A lot of his core principles are incompatible with the modern world so this will be interesting.

57 pages in and this is almost a reasoned discussion. And you are talking happily about bike riding.

What's got in to you lot.. 😯

well lets hope he doesn't write any of these things down...
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even worse carve them out
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Politics is all about the art of compromise. JC has enjoyed the freedom to be uncompromising with his fundamental principles. He won't have that now he's party leader and depending upon which compromises he makes will depend if he causes those who he has 'inspired' to vote for him decide to continue to follow him or accuse him of u-turning on a lot of his core principles. A lot of his core principles are incompatible with the modern world so this will be interesting.

Best post yet.

If the housing bubble pops, or if there is another global economic crisis and second wave of bank bailouts, then Corbyn could prove to be an inspired choice.
Both events are quite likely to happen before the nxt election.

That needs to convince people that he has a sound economic plan to pay for the better life.

Where does it say life has to always get better? I would settle for a maintaining of living standards for those currently doing ok and a betterment of things for those at the bottom. Progressive betterment if you will.

And Sbob it's not all about you, though betterment for the people at the bottom of the pile will improve things for the rest of us low wage earners.

@Dragon. Beeching tackled the wrong symptom. The problem was in the big city depots but management were to weak/poor to sort it out and tinkered at the edges ruining something we will need to re-introduce in the future to maintain rural living standards.

I would settle for a maintaining of living standards for those currently doing ok and a betterment of things for those at the bottom. Progressive betterment if you will.

There comes a point where economically or out of "principal" you buy items abroad to avoid a luxury tax, my BIL imported his new car from Europe back in the day when you had the extra 10% tax

Indeed compromise starts immediately proving that there is no such thing as a conviction politician. The radio interview with McClusky (I think) this morning on the way to the ride was funny. So who compromises in Trident and how that is presented will be fun to watch - the media team will earn their pennies there.

Being in oppo is the easy bit. Taking tough decisions is the hard bit as poor Cleggie found out.

(Sorry to hear about the injury ATP. I always imagine anyone on a bike in the Hankely area is you!!)

athgray - Member

I know he is. So was Charles Kennedy. Still did not stop Alex Salmond and the SNP attempting to coax his good name to their cause when he was unable to respond.

If you're alluding to Salmond's observation that Charlie's heart wasn't in the No campaign, that's a matter of record- Charlie hated the Project Fear approach and was openly critical of it throughout- he believed it was tactically wrong and driving people into the Yes camp, and personally he was peeved that the negative campaign meant he didn't get to have the debate he was made for. He didn't need to be around to respond; he'd already said it publically.

But Salmond never claimed Kennedy for his cause, or suggested that he wasn't 100% in favour of preserving the union, that's just a bare faced lie. There's a world of difference between not being happy with Better Together, and being on the other side.

@ernie I recall the tax rates where 25 and 15 but perhaps I'm wrong

You are wrong. When Thatcher became PM there was a 25% luxury rate on yachts, obviously she didn't like the idea of hard-up rich people pay too much tax on their yachts so she slashed VAT on yachts to 15%.

To help pay for this tax relief for rich people she almost double VAT for everyone else by increasing the basic rate from 8% to 15%.

Previously UK consumers had enjoyed a basic VAT rate of just 8% partly because there was a 25% rate on luxury goods including yachts. Until Thatcher, champion of regressive taxes, came along.

Ironically it was her most regressive tax of all, the Poll Tax, which eventually destroyed her political career.

Sweet irony.

I don't mean Salmond was saying Charles Kennedy was supportive of indy, however IMO he used his flawed but generally amenable character for political advantage.

Then there was his absurd quote that Charles Kennedy would have reconciled himself in an independent Scotland. Of course he would have. We all will.

The SNP will do the same with Jeremy Corbyn. "It was us that led to this political change in direction. You have us to thank!"

athgray - Member

I don't mean Salmond was saying Charles Kennedy was supportive of indy,

When you said "did not stop Alex Salmond and the SNP attempting to coax his good name to their cause"? What on earth did you mean then?

athgray - Member

Then there was his absurd quote that Charles Kennedy would have reconciled himself in an independent Scotland. Of course he would have.

Yep, sounds absurd to me... Absurdly saying things that you agree with, how dare he? 😆 What was absurd, and sad, was watching the frenzy of people trying to make political capital from it all. Especially the point at which people stopped quoting Salmond, because it made it easier to pretend he'd said something he hadn't.

No need to be obtuse Northwind. Statements can be absurd for a variety of reasons. Salmonds was absurd because it a was it was a statement of the blatantly obvious, in an attempt portray him as one of Salmonds good guys.

On Corbyn, there will be people in Scotland who will never vote for him despite him apparently saying a lot of what they wish for. Inspite of what they say indy is the endgame.

No response to the first point then? Interesting, that.

You are wrong. When Thatcher became PM there was a 25% luxury rate on yachts

No there wasn't, in 1979 it was 12.5% on boats (all boats including canoes) - higher rate tax was introduced at 25% in 1974 on petrol, but expanded in '75 to a variety of luxury items like televisions, radios, cameras and sporting goods (but not golf clubs funnily enough) then dropped to 12.5% in '77

So, in fact Thatcher [i]increased[/i] VAT on yachts!

Interstingly enough, even though I wouldn't descibe myself as 'left wing' (just about left of centre probably) I actually found myself disagreeing with only 4 of the things Jeremy believes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34209478
with reservations about another 4. I wonder how much the Jeremy Corbyn political persona puts people off him. Sadly I think it means that unless something pretty radical happens in the world, he is going to gift the next election to the Tories.

Jambas - you are not alone in your ignorance (sic). This is what old Heath had to say

"Do you know what Margaret Thatcher did in her first Budget? Introduced VAT on yachts! It somewhat ruined my retirement" - 1992.

😀

No response to the first point then? Interesting, that.

BTW, a party that seeks political leverage from a perceived gallusness and argumentative fun loving nature of the electorate is what really saddens me, but it is a line that must work or they wouldn't do it. This lion is getting a bit tired of roaring. See what I did there?

perhaps Corbyn will have success with the UK electorate if he taps into a love of Pimms, pork scratchings and Chas & Dave for election broadcasts, unless UKIP beat him to it.

I wonder how much the Jeremy Corbyn political persona puts people off him. Sadly I think it means that unless something pretty radical happens in the world, he is going to gift the next election to the Tories.

I don't think people are put off him, it is only the right whingers who would never vote for labour anyway who have the knives out, And the unfounded attacks and lies thrown against are actually increasing his support.

If anything, unless the tories actually face up to the real reasons for his popularity and stop the baseless mud throwing and hysterical fear mongering they are going to gift the next election to him.

According to Wiki it was Dennis Healy who set rates at 25 and 8 as I posted @ernie. Anyway it doesn't matter who did it my point was that luxury vat bands are ineffective / don't work. The Elephant in the Room on VAT is food, they have it in Europe (France, Germany, Italy, Spain). It's political dynamite here but they seem to avoided social disaster by imp song it over there, the who,e EU game is integration of fiscal and tax policy so sooner or later we're going to get it assuming we remain in the EU.

@kona you could well be right on the VAT element, not sure about the special car tax. All I know is he imported the car to save money and that's just the sort of behaviour you see when artificial differences in pricing emerge through tax. That's the whole gig for Amazon etc.

I see Tom Watson has reiterated today he is pro Trident.

@MSP we'll have to differ on that last point. I very much doubt Corbyn will survive to the next election. In any case he'll be 67 by then too.

To help pay for this tax relief for rich people she almost double VAT for everyone else by increasing the basic rate from 8% to 15%.

Wow must have been a lot of yacht sales in those days to have such an impact.

ATG - never forget, the ends always justify the means!

In any case he'll be 67 by then too

So what? That is exactly the kind of nonsensical fear based propaganda I am talking about, trying to create a pretend narrative that being 67 years old is a problem. It reveals the right for what they are afraid and dirty, lacking any moral conviction other than the instantly turning to dirty tricks, next you will try and claim he was hungover during an interview.

[quote=jambalaya said]@MSP we'll have to differ on that last point. I very much doubt Corbyn will survive to the next election. In any case he'll be 67 by then too.

He's 66 now, will be 70 come 2020 election.

The media is full of lies and misleading crap. But mentioning someone's age is not a dirty trick, it's perfectly reasonable. (Or would have been if it had been correct.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34209478

ninfan - Member

No there wasn't, in 1979 it was 12.5% on boats

Yep, you're right. I've checked and apparently after lobbying from the Ship and Boat Builders National Federation and the Royal Yachting Association the Labour Chancellor Denis Healey halved VAT on yachts to 12.5% in 1974.

Which makes jambalaya's claim that the UK's yacht/boat building industry and jobs were destroyed by 2 years of VAT at 25% even more absurd. If it was 12.5% when we had a different rate for luxury goods (which jambalaya claims was a bad thing) how is the industry managing now the rate is 20% ?

And if higher VAT rates cost jobs, as jambalaya claims, how many jobs were lost when Thatcher almost doubled the basic VAT rate from 8% to 15% ? Or Cameron increased it from 17.5% to 20% ?

If VAT wasn't damaging their businesses why would there be "lobbying from the Ship and Boat Builders National Federation" and why would that lobbying be successful?

If there was another reason, and you know it, why aren't you telling us?

Because everyone always asks for lower taxes on their own business?

@kona you could well be right on the VAT element, not sure about the special car tax. All I know is he imported the car to save money and that's just the sort of behaviour you see when artificial differences in pricing emerge through tax. That's the whole gig for Amazon etc.

I suspect it was more to do with the car companies' behaviour in pricing UK cars well above continental prices which meant a continental dealt could order a LHD car for much less than a UK dealer could. You bought the car in Europe (usually Belgium) tax free for export, and then paid all VAT etc to register it in the UK. You weren't dodging tax, just manufacturers' attempts at market segmentation. Manufacturers then tried to stop continental dealers selling LHD cars, at which point the EU stepped on, stopped the whole affair, and car prices in the UK dropped significantly.

But I'm glad we have agreed that it's sod all to do with UK VAT on luxury goods, which would have been paid whether or not the car was manufactured in th the UK or not. I'm surprised you didn't know that, what with your self-proclaimed expertise in this area...

Chuka's gone . 🙁

If VAT wasn't damaging their businesses why would there be "lobbying from the Ship and Boat Builders National Federation" and why would that lobbying be successful?

If there was another reason, and you know it, why aren't you telling us?

If all VAT was scrapped on everything sold at PC World it would dramatically boost their profit. Not really a good enough reason to do it though.

Of course any increase in price affects sales, who the hell is arguing otherwise?

I'm challenging jambalaya's claim that UK yacht building industry was destroyed because for a couple of years in the 1970s there was a 25% VAT rate on new yachts.