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A ref after both options have been spelled out and put back to the people isn’t something that can go back to the people more times. One of the options will be enacted on.
We can't easily go back if Leave win. We obviously can go back if remain win because as we keep saying people are entitled to change their minds so we if remain win we need at least one more referendum, and possibly 3 more to make it best of five. A referendum solves the issue only if you want to leave and leave win. Any other result is inconclusive.
If remainers, of which i am obviously one, lose, we lose. I’m fine with that. It will be an informed choice.
You're fine with leaving, and you're proposing a course of action which can result in leave, but not remain. Just vote Tory, they're the party for people happy to leave. If you want to remain vote lib Dem.
I sympathise with the lib dem position of no brexit, but really, it’s not a solution that will be viewed as democratic by a large proportion of people.
We're a representative democracy with elections. When people win they carry out their mandate if they have a workable majority. In contrast referendums mean nothing. It's an opinion poll.
outofbreath
Member
A ref after both options have been spelled out and put back to the people isn’t something that can go back to the people more times. One of the options will be enacted on.We can’t easily go back if Leave win. We obviously can go back if remain win because as we keep saying people are entitled to change their minds so we if remain win we need at least one more referendum, and possibly 3 more to make it best of five. A referendum solves the issue only if you want to leave and leave win. Any other result is inconclusive.
Do you want to leave with this deal, or remain in the EU.
Option 1, Leave.
Otption 2, Remain.
How is that inconclusive?
Although why at this stage people need someone else to tell them how they feel on this issue is beyond me.
They don't, but they need the party to say whether they intend to leave or remain.
Christ, Brexit isn't a big issue for me and I *still* will only vote for a party that fits my (mild) Brexit preference. Everyone else is *way* more polarized than me...
It's a general election. Brexit is a big issue.
If remainers, of which i am obviously one, lose, we lose. I’m fine with that. It will be an informed choice.
You’re fine with leaving,
I'm not fine with leaving at all, I'd much rather be in the EU. But if England decides to leave, what the hell can I do about it? I'm not going to attempt to hold it against it's will.
outofbreath
Member
Although why at this stage people need someone else to tell them how they feel on this issue is beyond me.They don’t, but they need the party to say whether they intend to leave or remain.
And labour are very clear, They negotate a deal, put it to the people in a take it or leave it ref, and then enact that result.
What's difficult to get about that?
When the EU has stopped laughing at Jeremy's red unicorns cakeist requests and inform him that the deal that May negotiated is the only game in town, he'll be sent packing to campaign for the deal he whipped his MPs to vote against 3 times, while pretty much every other labour MP campaigns against it
It's going to look absolutely ridiculous!
How is that inconclusive?
You quoted the reason.
binners
Subscriber
When the EU has stopped laughing at Jeremy’s red unicorns cakeist requests and inform him that the deal that May negotiated is the only game in town
Then that's the deal that goes back to the people.
Mon to buggery, this isn't rocket science.
outofbreath
Member
How is that inconclusive?You quoted the reason.
Who in their right mind is going to open the question up again after it gets settled? Stop being silly.
It’s going to look absolutely ridiculous!
Maybe hence why it isnt going to happen. Where on earth did he say he would be campaigning for the leave option?
What’s difficult to get about that?
Nothing difficult at all. It's simple.
...but nobody's going to vote for it.
They can just vote for a leave party or a remain party and miss out the needless steps.
As a remainer why would I vote for a 50pc chance of remain when I can just vote remain?
Who in their right mind is going to open the question up again after it gets settled?
That's the point, it won't be settled by a remain win - 1-1 referendum draw. If remain wins we'll need number 3/5.
Yes, if leave win it will be settled and Farage will be gone for good, and the both main parties won't have to pick policy to please their leave voters.
Where on earth did he say he would be campaigning for the leave option?
So, he thinks we can get an arrangement with you EU that is better than membership, but if he gets it he won’t try and implement it?
I fully expect him to not openly back it, but that his more able fellow travellers will use any power grab they can contrive (within government and the party) to help him swing things for Leave in any way they can. Why wouldn’t they?
Who in their right mind is going to open the question up again after it gets settled?
Those that either seek to gain from the instability it creates (either politically or financially), or truly believe that we can operate in isolation without having to compromise with other countries, and that it doesn’t matter how long it takes, it is a goal that is ultimately worth pursuing, no matter what the cost, no matter how long it takes.
Stop being silly.
Troll?
…but nobody’s going to vote for it.
They can just vote for a leave party or a remain party and miss out the needless steps.
Aye lib dems are going to sweep up eh? 😆
The general election isn't going to be a referendum, by it's very nature it can't be.
That’s the point, it won’t be settled by a remain win – 1-1 referendum draw. If remain wins we’ll need number 3/5.
Who's going to campaign for a new leave vote?
😆
Ah, I know what action to take when that emoji starts turning up in someone’s replies.
kelvin
Subscriber
😆Ah, I know what action to take when that emoji starts turning up in someone’s replies.
Continue to put your fingers in your ears, and shout delay delay delay and pretend youse aren't shit scared about how England will vote in a referendum?
Trust in your fellow compatriots...
I support a referendum. The way you are engaging in this thread looks like basic trolling. Apologies if I have you wrong.
Who’s going to campaign for a new leave vote?
You mean besides the people who really want to leave, the Sun, the Mail, the Times, the Telegraph, the Spectator, the ERG, the Brexit Party, UKIP, half of the Conservative Party, the DUP, the Express, the dodgy billionaires, the tax exiles, the racists, the fruitloops and the people with legitimate concerns about immigration?
Dunno.
You can honestly see the tories setting themselves up as the lets do all this again party if they are defeated this time round?
kelvin
Subscriber
I support a referendum. The way you are engaging in this thread looks like basic trolling. Apologies if I have you wrong.
More just pissed off with it all.
Corbyn has offered the route out, take it.
I’m voting Labour. Backing a referendum was all that was needed to win me back, because on other issues Labour’s policies are a much better fit for me than those of the other UK parties. Not sure why you think offering an EU referendum ends the debate though. It’s just an agreed event… it doesn’t set out what a Labour government would seek to achieve. If you want to be PM, people will examine your words and intentions very intently. If we stop doing so, democracy falls apart quite quickly. “My intentions as PM don’t matter” denies voters agency.
Corbyn has offered the route out, take it.
Pretty much what Owen Jones said in the Observer yesterday. I think when it comes down to it the hatred of Corbyn is stronger the hatred of brexit, which I find very weird.
You can honestly see the tories setting themselves up as the lets do all this again party if they are defeated this time round?
I don't think it would be 'let's do all this again'. It would be 'let's carry on to get the rightful unicorn Brexit that we want/deserve/need/voted for'...
You can honestly see the tories setting themselves up as the lets do all this again party
I really wouldnt rule it out. Remember they have purged the strongest remainders and Johnson seems a major fan of doubling down on his mistakes.
Interesting watching the brexit debate at the labour conference this afternoon. In the conference hall there's clearly a majority in favour of Corbyn's position and against all out remain. Think he's heading for another victory.
Also apparently that there's going to be a mass walkout tomorrow for Tom Watson's speech. That'll be interesting.
I don’t think it would be ‘let’s do all this again’. It would be ‘let’s carry on to get the rightful unicorn Brexit that we want/deserve/need/voted for’…
Assuming that happens(it won't), lets deal with it if it does happen.
It has no bearing on what is happening right now though.
Who’s going to campaign for a new leave vote?
You mean besides the people who really want to leave, the Sun, the Mail, the Times, the Telegraph, the Spectator, the ERG, the Brexit Party, UKIP, half of the Conservative Party, the DUP, the Express, the dodgy billionaires, the tax exiles, the racists, the fruitloops and the people with legitimate concerns about immigration?
Dunno.
As I understand it, if we revoke we cannot instigate A50 for another 10 years. Of course the Nutters will call this, oh I don't know, Prison, Dictatorship or whatever.
It might go away, without a realistic chance of leaving for a decade the Brexit party Ltd will lose it's funding, but the papers will still stir, there will be calls to 'just hard brexit' in other words, do what the papers wanted all alone, tear up our agreements with the EU, and 'bloody well' tell them to do something.
Although, I think for the most part it's over, I'm sure there are plenty of 18 year old Hard Brexiteers out there, but most aren't, I know there are a lot of older remainers (most of the people who ere directly involed in WW2 and don't just see it as pornography) but for the most part Leavers are dying and remainers are reaching voting age.
The 90% of us in the middle (on both side) would really like to put the whole idea to bed for a bit. Someone in No10 will pretend to get tough with the EU, or work closer with them, the main parties might actually bother to fight EU elections and we might just look back at this as a stupid idea dreamt up by fat old men looking to make a fortune at our expense.
Think he’s heading for another victory.
The fudge will be probably be supported.
It’s good enough for my vote.
It isn’t good clear enough to win.
It doesn’t represent the wishes of members either, does it. It’ll only pass with union votes, you can bet safely on that.
Also apparently that there’s going to be a mass walkout tomorrow for Tom Watson’s speech.
Insert sixth form comment here.
Corbyn has offered the route out, take it.
He's offered two diametrically opposed routes. One of which could be catastrophic and nobody can predict which we'd be taking.
I don’t think it would be ‘let’s do all this again’. It would be ‘let’s carry on to get the rightful unicorn Brexit that we want/deserve/need/voted for’…
Agree. ...and they didn't want to do it last time, UKIP forced them to by threatening to take 1/3 of their votes. That situation can/will happen again and is already happening in the upcoming election.
Aye lib dems are going to sweep up eh?
48pc of people voted remain in the Referendum. The leave vote is split between Brexit Party and Tories, the remain vote is going exclusively to the libdems. The whole country is a total marginal, thanks to Brexit there are no safe seats. The lib dems could win outright, and are very likely to hold the balance of power. Having campaigned on a remain ticket they're going to have a remain mandate that can stop brexit if they hold the balance of power. If they make a concession it will only be as far as a referendum so their worst case is the same as the other parties best case. Yes, the lib dems are going to do incredibly well. (Unless Brexit happens before the election in some form in which case normal politics will resume and their fox will be shot.)
As I understand it, if we revoke we cannot instigate A50 for another 10 years.
I don't think there are any rules against invoking Art 50 a second time but even if there are, you can still leave. Just change your laws with a Great Repeal Act and stop paying the EU. You're out. David Owen and Nigel Lawson advocate that from day one and spelled it out in a letter. Given how things have gone we can see why!
notice how few Europeans are on this forum, wasting working time…
I'm a European, as I'm sure the majority of posters on here also are. Regardless of Brexit connotations, the UK is still a European country.
If you mean "mainland Europeans" then perhaps they're over on dassingletrackworld.de or some such forum that isn't based on the English language? Have you checked?
I am in mainland Europe and the only reason I can't post all day long is the 4g signal is sht in my office.
Can't use work network.
Assuming that happens(it won’t), lets deal with it if it does happen.
Voting for a 50/50 chance of leaving, and then if that 50/50 goes the right way dealing with the next hurdle.
If your best case scenario is something so tricky you don't wan't to think about right now just avoid those hurdles and vote for the party that is offering what you want right now.
Libdems: Best case remain, worst case referendum.
Labour: Best case win referendum and a whole new squabble, worst case leave.
I can forgive Cameron betting the farm on a referendum, he had no idea losing was a likely outcome. ...anyone advocating a referendum now knows how the film is likely to end.
the remain vote is going exclusively to the libdems.
They'll be doing well to get 30-40 seats, they won't get more. But you crack on with your fantasies.
I see. You must be assuming you’ll be in the lucky 80% that isn’t instantly made redundant?
Precisely. Because a 20 percent drop in hours worked without a 20 percent increase in productivity, means a 20 percent reduction in GDP, tax for the chancellor etc etc and a sudden loss of profitability of many SMEs and resultant overnight closures. It doesn’t matter if they still keep paying Faz more, the reality is the UK is producing less under that scenario.
DazHs flippancy on that highlights how dangerous economic illiteracy amongst the public is. Luckily labour gave themselves a decade to implement it so it’s a policy that firstly, they know they will never have to implement as they won’t get in anytime soon and secondly - they can kick the can down the road in terms of that promise once in office.
More red unicorns.
Counting votes is such a waste of time… just take the mood in the room and decide if it’s with you.
There were clearly more hands up for the pro-Corbyn motions. Even I could tell that by watching on the telly.
What do we want?
Constructive ambiguity!
When do we want it?
Until after the election!
Well Len, Seamus & Corbyn have kicked the can down the road once again
Jo Swinson must be chuckling !
There were clearly more hands up for the pro-Corbyn motions. Even I could tell that by watching on the telly.
Well, that’s okay then, no reason at all we you might not be a fair judge of that.
Now they can promise a 20 hour week, they will never be in power.
They clearly thought that 14% they polled in the EU elections was looking a bit high
What will tomorrow bring? Dianne Abbott promising every household a new puppy and a week in Benidorm?
I think Peston is getting a little bit carried away there.
Now, are parliamentary candidates supposed to stick to a “I’ll tell you what I think after the election” line, or can they openly say what they think should happen about Brexit, without being charged with being ‘disloyal’? Same for current MPs and front benchers?
There will be a further loss of members and (polled) voters now. I can’t see today resulting in anything else.
20% less hours means that the NHS will need 40-50k more doctors in ten years time.
As it takes about that long to train a doctor from the point they enter uni Labour have just committed the NHS to a unprecedented disaster in patient wait times and clinical outcomes. Even if the capacity was there to train the extra numbers required there wouldn’t be enough time to supervise their work. Same with teachers, police, firefighters - and all of this will apparently not cost any more - which can only mean pay cuts all round.