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That aged well binners.
This ‘restoring democracy to the party’ lark is going well, isn’t it?
Looks like Jeremy is now out of the loop and Len, Jon, Karie and Seamus don’t even bother to consult him (or anyone else) any more before they announce what party policy is this week 😂
It’s not about Corbyn, it’s about what happens after him.
This is a good read.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/21/bankers-corbyn-tories-no-deal-capitalism-radical-government
I normally stay away from these threads, but watching the news over the last couple of days, I couldn’t help but notice that Corbyn and Boris both seem to be saying the same damn thing; let’s have an election, then we can persuade the EU to come back with a better offer.
What better offer! Christ, we had May, and now Johnstone and Corbyn all bleating on about a better offer, and all the time the EU has been repeating the same thing - there is no better offer!
Or am I missing something really obvious here? 😖
🦄
Dazh where are you?
Corbyn isn’t only claiming he can come back with an “offer” better than the current Withdrawal Agreement, but that he can deliver a Brexit that will make us better off than if we remained in the EU. Bold claim. Vague on the details. Sounds like a unicorn to me. Will this week at conference be about backing his ‘plan’ to get a ‘deal’, and then recommend it to the country… or will members actually get a vote on what policy should be? Place your bets…
So what is this “agreement with the EU” that can make us better off outside the EU?
Anyone?
Going to be a fun packed week.
I'm beginning to think Corbyn is being funded by the Tories, no one can surely be as incompetent as he appears to be, it must be a deliberate attempt to make Labour unelectable.
Lifelong Brexiteer re-affirms his commitment to Brexit isn't really news, is it?
The red unicorns do seem to be getting more and more fantastical though
Will this week at conference be about backing his ‘plan’ to get a ‘deal’, and then recommend it to the country… or will members actually get a vote on what policy should be?
As usual, the 'leadership' are doing everything to avoid any actual debate and stifle any dissent. Apparently Brexit policy will be discussed at some future special conference, not now. There definitely won't be a vote as Corbyn's views don't reflect Labour MPs, members or voters opinions. Something he knows full well
Its getting difficult to see what's satire any more
I'm sure the Lib Dems vote will be increasing day-on-day through the course of the week as Labour Brexit policy becomes even more laughable
I've watched the Andrew Marr interview this morning (I'm at home, dying of cat Aids *) and 2 things struck me.
1. Because he (Corbyn) doesn't do interviews, when they do get him to turn up, they have a bunch of stuff they want to ask, about which Corbyn then gets exasperated about, because for him this is old news, and he wants to talk about other newer stuff, and;
2. Because he doesn't do TV enough, he's really really bad at it, and folk like Marr just run rings around him.
*The bad sort
Count
You are missing that without May's red lines a much better deal is available
Still stupid and damaging mind you
On todays conference agenda - Corbyn and his cabal are presently getting the union block vote of McClusky et al to block the overwhelmingly pro-remain members motion for Labour to campaign for remain in any second referendum.
That's 'restoring democratic power to the membership', apparently
Yes, astonishing that while watching the Tories squabble in public for the last three years, The lesson Labour appear to have taken on board is that rather than presenting a clear policy that 99.9% of the membership can get behind and are desperate for, or looking at all competent, have chosen instead, to copy the Tories and attempt an inept bit of score settling, letting the person who organised their successful election strategy of 2017 go and at the same time write a coruscating attack on the leadership, and mount a conference stitch up.
Slow Hand clap....
One irony of all this is the deathgrip command and control Blair was able exert over the Labour party - and the unions were just as left wing back then as they are now - compared with current leadership.
Always amusing to see the hysteria whipped up by a labour party conference. The trouble is that unlike other parties, labour use the conference as a key element of their democratic decision making process. That means they end up debating issues, disagreeing with eachother, and yes it also unfortunately provides a platform for some to pursue their grievances. The end result is a field day for the media who can prattle on about a 'party at war', and their critics who can easily use it against them. If it was up to me I'd cancel the whole thing and move decision making to a more transparent forum with direct democracy exercised online.
And on Tom Watson, the misguided attempt to remove him can be explained by the simple fact that he's a king size **** who for two years has been acting as shadow leader in waiting rather than deputy leader. He simply hasn't done his job, and the labour party has suffered massively because of it. I'm only amazed it took them this long to try to get rid of him, and that's why it was a bit stupid as you rarely win a battle fought out of desperation. Are we forgetting that as recently as 3 weeks ago, when labour had successfully defeated Boris, exposed Swinson for the fraud she is, and had a solid platform to prevent no deal, Watson decided to stick his oar in to remind everyone of his leadership ambitions by undermining everything they'd done in the past month.
Anyway, enjoy the rest of the week. I'm sure it will provide a lot more gossip (which is essentially all politics is these days), and it will be completely forgotten about by the time the election comes round.
More from Guardian...
Composite 14 on Brexit. This is the composite motion backing the leadership position although, unlike the NEC statement, it does not say explicitly that the decision on the party’s stance in a referendum should be postponed. It just says Jeremy Corbyn has made the way forward “abundantly clear” by backing a public vote.
Labour accepts that all three motions could be passed - even though the NEC statement and composite 13 are contradictory.
Today’s votes will not automatically determine Labour’s position at the next election, officials admit. The decision as to what goes into the manifesto will be taken nearer the time at a clause V meeting, where the NEC, the shadow cabinet and union leaders will agree the text of the document
So it looks like today's votes are not binding and contradictory motions could pass.
The trouble is that unlike other parties, labour use the conference as a key element of their democratic decision making process.
Which other parties? Because, other than the Conservative Party (and Brexit non-Party), other party conferences are used for exactly that role, and the members (well, attendees) have far more say over what is debated and voted on.
As for Watson. No fan. But you have to wonder what Labour policy would have been at this point without him. All other shadow cabinet members who called for a referendum with a Remain option were fired. He only wasn’t because he is elected not appointed. Has he been a thorn in the arse of the leader and his team? Absolutely. And I for one thank him for it.
Its also a bit rich lecturing other people on internal party democracy when the leadership is dependent on union block votes to outvote the membership who's wishes it clearly opposes.
Doesn't look like that is going to work now, BTW, as Unison is saying it will vote with the membership against Corbyns preposterous 'neutral' Red Unicorns Brexit position.
So we'll have the sight to look forward to of Grandad reading out his support for campaigning for remain like he's in an ISIS hostage video stating that his captors are treating him well.
As for Watson, they can get rid of him any time they like. All it takes is the support of 20% of the parties MP's to trigger a ballot. Ever stopped to think why that hasn't happened? Because Corbyn would never get the support of 20% of his own MP's to do it. That's why.
Again... championing internal party Democracy? Only when it suits, eh?
Doesn’t look like that is going to work now, BTW as Unison is saying it will vote wit the membership against Corbyns preposterous ‘neutral’ Brexit position.
Binners you've just contradicted yourself in two sentences. How can Corbyn be 'using' the unions to repress democracy if they then go and vote against him?
So we’ll have the sight to look forward to of Grandad reading out his support for campaigning for remain like he’s in an ISIS hostage
It's no secret that Corbyn is pro-brexit, and yes it would be much easier if he wasn't. But he is, and to go back on that now would look pretty silly. It's perfectly possible for him to play the Harold Wilson role, the rest of them will campaign how they want, probably remain like McDonnell, Thornberry, Starmer et al. Watson no doubt will continue campaigning for himself.
Binners you’ve just contradicted yourself in two sentences. How can Corbyn be ‘using’ the unions to repress democracy if they then go and vote against him?
Daz - I'm merely pointing out that the Labour party is not some one-member-one-vote beacon of democracy. The union block vote can out-vote the membership. And that is precisely what Corbyn is trying to get them to do.
Corbyn and his goons have been leaning heavily on the unions to support their position, against the wishes of the membership. They can always rely on anti-EU, 70's-throwback dinosaurs like Len McClusky, but it seems more forward-thinking and less reactionary unions aren't playing ball as their memberships are increasingly pro-remain. As are Len McClucky's. Not that you'd know it.
Whichever way you try and slice it, Corbyn is in direct contradiction with the opinions of most of the labour membership, its MP's and its voters over Brexit, and is pulling all kinds of stunts so his Brexity view prevails over their pro-remain one.
And thats how party democracy works, Corbyn-style, apparently
Corbyns preposterous ‘neutral’ Red Unicorns Brexit position.
There's nothing preposterous about the policy of staying neutral over a deal or remain ref.
It's the most bit of sense we've heard on Brexit for 3 years.
We it seems we are faced with a choice between 1984 or Animal Farm.
(Guess which is on the GCSE English Lit syllabus)
Well, my lad has been told to read 1984, so I guess that is. He’s reading my 50th anniversary edition of Animal Farm instead, because it looks so damn good… (and he has to wait for other kids to read the few copies of 1984 the school owns).
McDonnell has just committed to a 32 hour working week. A potential game changer.
There’s nothing preposterous about the policy of staying neutral over a deal or remain ref.
Corbyn isn’t staying neutral, he is fighting for Brexit. He doesn’t want a Labour government getting in the way of delivering that. You have to admire him sticking to his principals really… when so much of the rest of the Labour movement would rather safeguard jobs, workers rights, living standards, environmental standards, food standards etc and stop Brexit.
McDonnell has just committed to a 32 hour working week.
Well, as long as that’s paired with measures to stop the slide from employee to self employed status for those that are low paid and work long hours…
Corbyn isn’t staying neutral
He's said he will stay neutral in a new referendum campaign. Labour support for remain isn't about Corbyn thinks or does, it's about using the party machine and voter databases to support the campaign. They can do that with Corbyn remaining neutral.
Question: McDonnell has said the first step to delivering a 4 day week will be opting out of the European Working Time Directive. Does remaining prevent that?
Well, as long as that’s paired with measures to stop the slide from employee to self employed status for those that are low paid and work long hours…
He also committed to abolish zero hours contracts.
Question: McDonnell has said the first step to delivering a 4 day week will be opting out of the European Working Time Directive. Does remaining prevent that?
The UK has already opted out of the European Working Time Directive, for the opposite reason, because the UK wants workers to work longer. The directive has maximum hours (48 iirc) but national governments are allowed to set a lower working week if they wish.
Frankly it is quite clear who is driving brexit, and it isn't anyone with a social conscious. The fantasy that brexit will deliver a better world just will not happen.
kelvin
Corbyn isn’t staying neutral, he is fighting for Brexit.
Committing to a ref seems a strange way of going about that.
McDonnell has just committed to a 32 hour working week. A potential game changer.
It certainly means they know for sure they're gonna lose the election and can safely promise *anything*.
Britain has a terrible productivity problem. Reducing productivity by 15pc is mental.
He’s not neutral, he’s attempting to be the balance/brake against Labour stopping Brexit. He’s no more neutral than he ever has been… he’s a Brexiteer fighting to keep Brexit alive within the Labour movement.
And zero hours contracts is a red herring. If you’re self employed to provide a service, you may be on a retainer, or other contract that isn’t directly link your hours worked, nor places a limit on how many hours you work. Stopping zero hour contracts (or at the very least stopping those that lock you in as if waged) is important, but it doesn’t on its own bring all workers within any new working hours directive type legislation. I’d like to see the details about how this would be achieved, before cheering a 32 hour working week headline policy. Details matter.
Britain has a terrible productivity problem. Reducing productivity by 15pc is mental.
Britain has a terrible productivity problem, because it squeezes working people too hard for too long, people are miserable at work, they feel untrusted and devalued by conditions, actually improving conditions is the solution. Working less hours would help.
He’s said he will stay neutral in a new referendum campaign. Labour support for remain isn’t about Corbyn thinks or does, it’s about using the party machine and voter databases to support the campaign. They can do that with Corbyn remaining neutral.
But we all know where his heart lies - he’s a born Brexiteer, has been all his life..
Seems more like a democrat tbh, he may be for brexit, but is clearly willing to allow the nation to decide for itself.
I really don't see how people can criticise that, cept to further their own agenda.
I really don’t see how people can criticise that, cept to further their own agenda.
Because most people who support brexit do so because they believed lies and racist propaganda. Corbyn has totally failed to challenge that rhetoric, and it is because he still thinks he can deliver a unicorn brexit of his own, he doesn't care about the damage the rhetoric has and is causing because he thinks it could deliver him a path to power and his own fantastic utopia. He is just the other arse cheek to Johnson/Trump. He just isn't looking at the reality of what is happening, just believing it will all magically fix itself once he takes over.
You have to have sort of grudgingly admire what he has achieved. He's devised a form of populism that is universally unpopular*
*Sixth formers excepted
MSP
He just isn’t looking at the reality of what is happening.
😆
He's the only one looking at the current reality in relation to brexit!
Tell me the other solution to Brexit rather than a referendum?
binners
Subscriber
You have to have sort of grudgingly admire what he has achieved. He’s devised a form of populism that is universally unpopular**Sixth formers excepted
Posted 9 minutes ago
Perhaps, but there's comes a time when you should perhaps chill with your rhetoric too, and get behind him on a single issue.
Corbyn is correct when it comes to a ref.
His policies are largely irrelevant when you factor in the bigger picture.
This brexit shit isn't going to last forever, there's now 2 options now.
A corbyn government and a ref.
A boris government and out on our arse.
The choices there really decide the direction of travel for this country for the next 20/30/40 years and more than any current manifesto, either parties current policies are irrelevant. We can change policy direction in short order.
We won't change the decision we make on brexit.
McDonnell has just committed to a 32 hour working week
Shit! that means I'm going to have to start eating into my own time on this forum
How do we “get behind him”?
I’m voting Labour, despite it having a leader who wants Brexit, because at least those he has been fighting in the party for three years have managed to get a referendum policy past him and his team… but by god was that a battle. I’m getting behind Labour, not Corbyn, and hope that Brexit can be stopped despite all his efforts to save it. Those efforts won’t end if he becomes PM. He won’t be “neutral”, he will use both party and government bureaucracy to try and enable Brexit, and others in the party will have to be prepared to fight him and his millionaire Straight Left confidants.
Shit! that means I’m going to have to start eating into my own time on this forum
😂
kelvin
kelvinSubscriber
How do we “get behind him”?I’m voting Labour, despite it having a leader who wants Brexit, because at least those he has been fighting in the party for three years have managed to get a referendum policy past him and his team… but by god was that a battle. I’m getting behind Labour, not Corbyn, and hope that Brexit can be stopped despite all his efforts to save it. Those efforts won’t end if he becomes PM. He won’t be “neutral”, he will use both party and government bureaucracy to try and enable Brexit.
Stop attacking him on the issue would be a start.
It really doesn't matter what he believes, as long as a ref happens, what you suspect his beliefs are, are irrelevant.
Stop attacking him on the issue would be a start.
Hell no. He has had to be dragged to the current position by people pointing out that his Jobs First Brexit was bullshit, and that sacking people who proposed a second referendum was unwelcome, and by millions of people, including Labour members, voting for other parties at this year’s elections to ram the message home that chasing his red unicorn Brexit boondoggle is bad for Labour, and bad for the UK and its workers. The pressure on him and his team needs to increase, not decrease, and I hope Labour members find a way of doing exactly that this week. I’ve been impressed with the front benchers piling the pressure on already at conference side events. Why should we insignificant normal voters stop?