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My guess is that's happening
That's part of the problem, you, like all of us, are guessing.
He needs to be out in the press talking about it, convincing people that he's working his proverbial's off to stop no deal. He needs to be making noise as to why it's so damaging to Labour constituencies, he needs to be telling us what he's personally doing to stop it, he generally needs to be talking about it. But he's not, and that concerns a great number of people.
There are plenty of sane remainers
I'm sure there are, but they are being drowned out by the nutters and obsessives. I certainly don't hear many sensible remain arguments any more, and not just on here. All I hear now is 'if Corbyn had done something it would have been stopped' or words to that effect. Total fantasy, but easier than admitting that it's a very hard problem to solve without some form of compromise.
But he’s not, and that concerns a great number of people.
Okay, tell me. What use would that do? Looking at the Libdem feed its just a bunch of spurious rubbish with nothing of substance.
Greens are the only ones who have pushed anything recently and even that had to be a soundbite friendly piece to get some discussion which then, really, went nowhere.
The tory rebels seem a bit more interesting but again nothing really usable there.
By the by, if you look at the various Labour politicans it has been made clear talks are happening although in what detail who knows. However I wouldnt be expecting press releases on that until something is finalised.
All I hear now is ‘if Corbyn had done something it would have been stopped’
You hear it, but no one has said it. I have to wonder if this is trolling.
I’m sure there are, but they are being drowned out by the nutters and obsessives.
Thats not dissimilar to the leave side though. Empty vessel makes the most noise and all that.
Although its exacerbated here on the remain side since you have plenty of "moderates" whose frothing hatred of Corbyn makes things worse. I suspect with some of them if he had announced he wanted to revoke article 50 they would become strong leavers.
Remember in many cases these are the swing voters who were courted by Blair and then Cameron and have got used to being treated as far more significant than they actually are.
Those pesky swing voters, eh? What do Labour need them for anyway?
All I hear now is ‘if Corbyn had done something it would have been stopped’
He now says he opposes no deal, but supports leaving with a deal.
Well in that case, he could have whipped his MP's to support Mays deal. He didn't do that. He did the opposite, thus making No Deal the default position, since he'd whipped his MP's to trigger article 50.
Since the Tory party takeover was completed and they plunge us gleefully towards an increasingly certain catastrophic crash out, Corbyn seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth, other than for his Twitterbot random subject generator.
I mean, he's hardly ever been much of a presence, but at this critical juncture, where Boris, Dom and co are being very busy boys, he is now totally invisible
I wonder if he could be tempted out for some kebab awards?
In the meantime, its left to Phillip Hammond to be HM opposition
Those pesky swing voters, eh? What do Labour need them for anyway?
As it turns out to **** things up.
"centre" got moved significantly rightwards.
Core constituents ended up looking for alternatives.
Then we end up with people looking surprised when we end up in the mess we are.
Well in that case, he could have whipped his MP’s to support Mays deal.
Wow. You are going full Maybot press secretary there.
Do you really not understand that "leaving with a deal." doesnt actually mean "any deal no matter how shit".
Which bit of 'the EU will not reopen negotiations' are you struggling with?
there isn't a bit of small print that says 'unless you have a beard and grow runner beans', as much as the messiah seems to believe there is.
Us bitter remoaners have said right from the off that any deal would be what the EU said it was going to be, and their attitude would be that.... "There you go! Take it or ****in' leave it!"
Yet somehow there will be magic red unicorns flying over Dover once PM Jezza heads to Brussels?
Remember in many cases these are the swing voters who were courted by Blair and then Cameron and have got used to being treated as far more significant than they actually are.
Your other option is to ignore them and not get into power. To get into power you have to find a way of appealing to people who wouldn't ordinarily vote for you. Blair did this wonderfully, Cameron did it well too. You can of course look to the extremes of the right or left, but up until recently, this was not seen as a wise choice.
I’ve been waiting for this sort of comment. Shouldn’t we all be thankful that the EU is there to protect us and provide the things our own government tell us are unaffordable? Well that’s the problem. People quite rightly want and expect their own government to do these things. In many respects they see EU funding as charity. They don’t want charity, they want to stand on their own two feet*, and that’s why they voted for brexit.
It's their houses that will be flooding; I live at the top of Rastrick so floods just mean it takes me longer to get to work.
Their own government has just rejected the EA funding applications so I wish them all the best come the winter storms and standing on their own two feet.
Blair did this wonderfully, Cameron did it well too. You can of course look to the extremes of the right or left, but up until recently, this was not seen as a wise choice
The problem is, as our current situation shows us, that Blair and Cameron went for a tactic which ended up with lots of people feeling disenfranchised.
There is a very good reason why Blair walked when he did. He didnt want to get the boot.
There is a very good reason why Cameron ended in tears. He screwed up the bet.
There are no easy answers. PR is probably the best bet but the "ignore them and not get into power" is a poor cliche which only really addresses getting power as opposed to getting policies enacted. In some cases being in opposition is better if the party in power is having to bend towards your policies to keep in power. As opposed to what happened under Blair where they tacked rightwards heavily.
In some cases being in opposition is better if the party in power is having to bend towards your policies to keep in power. As opposed to what happened under Blair where they tacked rightwards heavily.
I completely agree with this. The opposition can shape policy if the party in power feel threatened that they will/could take votes from them. traditionally, that has meant a Labour government has been stopped going to far left by a Tory opposition and vice-versa. The problem at the moment is that Labour are no threat to the Tories, they are more fearful of losing votes to The Brexit Party.
If/when Labour start making the right noises to become a threat again then maybe Tory policy will move left slight.
This is all just going around in circles… circles that end with a No Deal Brexit, and Labour thinking they can come to power afterwards.
Two key moments that made it clear to me that the idea of avoiding a No Deal Brexit AND Labour coming to power was never part of this long term Milne&Co strategy (I won’t say Labour strategy because it’s not an agreed Labour wide plan at all)…
- the votes/whipping on the Cherry amendment, which aimed to do nothing more than give Parliament the power to pull the plug on the A50 process at the very last minute if that proved to be the only way to stop a No Deal Brexit.
- the failure of the Leader Of The Opposition to call a vote as regards the new No Deal government, despite ministers resigning not just to vote on it, but openly calling on the speaker to let parliament have that vote.
Even a Labour leader who wanted a measured withdrawal from the EU could have supported both of these measures. They were the two last best chances to avoid No Deal. Time is just about up for any other measure now.
Well in that case, he could have whipped his MP’s to support Mays deal.
Wow x2.
Come on, be honest, if he had done this what would you and the other corbyn obsessives on here have said?
At the time? We'd probably have gone ballistic.
But then we didn't really realise that not too much later it'd be looking like the least worst option.
Now? As we drift towards the disaster of No Deal, with the Brexiteers whooping with glee at the prospect and the leader of HM Opposition gone AWOL again...?
And there in a nutshell is the current state of the remain side of the debate. Embarrassing.
Corbyn is as much of a facilitator of Brexit as any one. It is delusional to think otherwise.
All his political life he’s voted against the E.U. The evidence is right in front of your eyes.
What more proof of his disdain for it do you need??
At the time? We’d probably have gone ballistic.
But then we didn’t really realise that not too much later it’d be looking like the least worst option.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Complaining? Given the alternative of No Deal, right now I’d take it every time.
Things have shifted very far to the right, very quickly, with Grandads tacit approval
Just seen on channel 4 news. that Johnson May be planning an 11th hour vote on Mays Deal knowing that s load of MPs would vote for it, rather than watch their useless Brexiteer leader sit and nod through no deal.
Angela Rayner was then on saying that in the event of a general election, Labour would not consider cooperating with other parties to defeat the Tories and that if there were a second referendum, Labour is still not committed, as a policy, to campaign for remain
He’s a Brexiteer who is, at best, ambivalent about a no deal Brexit and actually what he really wants and has always wanted all along
Some people need to open their eyes
It’s coming to something when Phillip Hammond is now acting as the official opposition
Complaining? Given the alternative of No Deal, right now I’d take it every time.
We agree again. I’ve always said the solution is a deal, whether that’s May’s, Corbyn’s or someone else’s. It’s the only feasible option.
Hopefully that time hasn’t past. It looks like the only non-mental option.
I think Jezza would still 3 line whip ‘his’ MP’s to vote against it, preferring red unicorns, which will never happen, so no deal, but I doubt he’d have much luck next time around.
Let’s now hope there is a next time.
No deal would be a disaster, but it seems to be what the leaders of the two main parties (and their little cabals) really want
And ‘The Deal’ is the deal. It won’t change, no matter who’s in charge.
It was always going to be thus
Corbyn knows that. So he knows his approach would ultimately mean no deal
Him and Johnson are two cheeks of the same self-regarding, self-absorbed narcissistic arse. Both enjoying their (equally inexplicable) personality cults, and **** the consequences for everyone else
Corbyn written to other leaders on VONC and temporary unity government to extend A50 and to call a GE. Also commit Labour to 2nd ref with remain on the ballot
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1161751909788782594?s=19
Yeh - a move in right direction!
And ‘The Deal’ is the deal. It won’t change, no matter who’s in charge.
More grade A bollocks. The EU have made it perfectly clear that a new government with differnt red lines could have a different deal ie want to stay in the CU and SM you can -
Why keep on stating as fact utter bollocks.
Mays deal cannot be renegiotiated because she wouldn't change the red lines
“I am ready to adapt our offer should the UK red lines change,” Barnier said in a speech to the Institute of International and European Affairs in Brussels. “Our objective has always been to find an agreement with the UK, not against.”
About *ing time!
No mention of any commitment to remain
So... make me PM and I will pursue a red unicorn Brexit
FFS!
They’ll all, quite rightly, tell him to * off
Another open goal spooned into row z then?
So the principle of ensuring Brexit, while holding others responsible for it now embraces all parties, not just the Tory’s?
They (Seamas and co) really must think we’ve all just fallen out of a ****ing tree
Oh look Binners - a bunch of your favourite labour right wingers want to vote for mays deal now
But of course its all corbyns fault!
They go along with the other deluded bunch who voted with the tories to stop parliament gaining control of proceedings to prevent no deal against the labour whip
But its all Corbyns fault
“I am ready to adapt our offer should the UK red lines change,” Barnier said in a speech to the Institute of International and European Affairs in Brussels. “Our objective has always been to find an agreement with the UK, not against.”
TJ, you really need to bring yourself up to date. Using ancient quotes when referring to the current situation is odd.
No mention of any commitment to remain
That letter from Corbyn… all good in my opinion. Enough for me to vote for Labour in my seat at that election. I don’t need Labour to back a Remain option, just offer it to the public in a vote.
Still think this ends with us leaving with No Deal in May, with a freshly elected Conservative Brexit government. That further extension will just bolster support for them, sadly.
Apart from that is still thr situation. Want to stay in the CU and / Or the single market we can. Its been one of the EUs consistent positions all along. Change the red lines get a different deal
I know the truth does not appeal to you Corbyn haters but its good to put a few bits and pieces in there
What about all those labour idiots like Kinnoch Junior - an arch blairite - who now swant to vote for Mays deal? What about those 18 labour mps who voted against taking control of proceedings to stop no deal against the labour whip
No - irrelevant surely as its all Corbyns fault
Apart from that is still thr situation. Want to stay in the CU and / Or the single market we can.
You think the SM & CU options are still on the table… either in UK politics or on the EU side? I hope you’re right, but nothing much points to that being the case.
What about all those labour idiots like Kinnoch Junior – an arch blairite – who now swant to vote for Mays deal?
Kinnock has been pushing for leaving the EU consistently since the referendum.
This feels like the wrong thread.
Ooh look Corbyn is not in his magic garden or making magic mushrooms or playing draughts, darts or dominos ...
Jeremy Corbyn urges opposition leaders and Tory rebels to help oust PM
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/14/jeremy-corbyn-urges-opposition-leaders-and-tory-rebels-to-help-oust-pm
Guardian need to be careful they are starting to look a bit anti-centrist magic dad.
This feels like the wrong thread.
Well its consisted of endless pages of whining about him and brexit so why cut it short now?
Now to see how many moderates and centrists are more interested, like Binners, in their hate of Corbyn than trying to stop brexit.
I meant the discussion about Kinnock and others looking to find a way of getting a deal pushed through. Oh, are they “moderates and centrists”, or “Labour right wingers”, or are those tags just for people calling for the public to have a final say?
Anyway, unlike Binners, I welcome the Corbyn letter.
Oh, are they “moderates and centrists”, or “Labour right wingers” or are those tags just for people calling for the public to have a final say?
Well I am sure most of those who believe themselves to be centrists have disowned them but yes they fall in that camp. Also I would have thought its worth noting them here since its a nice clear sign that Labour has equally strong divisions which makes it hard to go all out remain.
Corbyn's letter will force the issue now. Opposition parties will need to support or come up with an alternative. If Swinson says they will support but not if Corbyn leads would look churlish, would she risk no deal for the sake of 2 weeks of Corbyn PM with defined objectives
Labour leavers like Kinnock and Nandy will prob fall in line with Labour Whip as a 2nd ref better than no deal. And I imagine not falling in line would be a career limiting move
The odd Kate Hoey aside I think the opposition parties will wear the offer, maybe holding their noses - it will be down to how many Tory rebels will support it and effectively resigning as MPs as they will booted out by the Tory party before the next GE
Neither Corbyn’s suitability to stay on as Leader, or the issue of allowing the public a final say on Brexit, are purely about “centrists” vs those on the left. Far from it. Hope that simplicity will be dropped now.
Clive Lewis is an example of an MP definitely on the left who has kept a clear and critical voice on Brexit. You can criticise the leadership without having to be a right winger seeking to undo what Corbyn has done in terms of moving policy to the left on other issues.
Hope that simplicity will be dropped now.
Whereas I hope your patronising tone will disappear. I suspect we will both be disappointed.
You can criticise the leadership without having to be a right winge
I have never said otherwise so I am not sure why you feel you are enlightening me.
I specifically stated that it was a question of how many centrists eg not all would have their hatred of Corbyn overrule everything else.
When every criticism of Brexit or Corbyn no longer results in angry cries of “centrist”, or “moderate” or whatever yellow Tory uncaring elite label is de rigour at the time, my tone will probably get softer. Dropping those kind of “down with outsiders” type attacks will also be a vote winner, I would guess.
No mention of any commitment to remain
You just said above you'd accept May’s dealto avoid a no deal. Yet now Corbyn is proposing a way to avoid no deal it’s no good?
Watching newsnight and the Lib-Dems are flatly refusing to work with Labour. Political posturing of the highest order. Do they want to avoid a no deal or not?