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That’s a welcome call from the Labour Party, in my opinion. Glad to be able to disagree with you once again Binners! I was getting worried.
The Labour Party – courageously addressing the real issues uppermost in peoples minds, once again 😂
Those living near the grouse moors and experiencing flooding might disagree with you.
Binners the issue of grouse shooting damaging the moors and flooding towns in the hills is a massive one. To the people who get flooded every other year in places like Todmorden and Hebden Bridge I can guarantee you it's a much more important issue than the free movement of labour in the EU and trade tariffs.
And actually, the EU compounds the issue by giving the shooting estates money from CAP so you're on very thin ice on this one.
UK decision to let them get that money Dazh.
https://fullfact.org/environment/does-government-subsidise-grouse-shooting/
UK decision to let them get that money
It still comes from CAP, the fact that our govt sets the priorities as to where CAP money goes is irrelevant as to whether it's an important issue. To the people in these towns, like millions of others, local issues which directly affect them are more important than international trade and immigration policy. I'm afraid they just don't care about customs unions and single markets.
Is Corbyn so tainted (unfairly
or otherwise) that it would be best for the Labour Party for him to step aside?
I would say so.
the fact that our govt sets the priorities as to where CAP money goes is irrelevant
It is? So shifting blame to the EU for decisions made in the UK has had no effect at all? And why are you doing it? Plenty of things the EU gets wrong, but why paint UK decisions as EU ones? What’s the agenda? Why join in with that?
To the people in these towns, like millions of others, local issues…
You come across just ever so slightly patronising Dazh, if you don’t mind me saying. People, even folk in these towns, can see beyond their own little world you know. Some even occasionally leave the shire, or, heaven forfend, have friends, relatives and colleagues born elsewhere. Imagine that?!? Out of towners, mixing with our own local stock.
I would say so.
Indeed, it is irrelevant if Corbyn’s time is up because of his own mistakes, or those of others, or just bad luck timing wise, or cumulative unfair criticism of him, or time wasted having to battle others in the party who never wanted him to be leader, or perhaps because all leaders who have lost elections struggle to win others in future, but, where as he may have been the right man to move the party on a few years ago, he is the wrong man to lead the party now and a barrier to its success.
slightly
😂
So shifting blame
Wasn't shifting the blame, although if CAP results in lots of money to be given to grouse estates then we're better off without it IMO.
You come across just ever so slightly patronising Dazh
That is very amusing. You and others have spent the last 1000 pages saying brexit voters didn't understand what they were voting for etc, right through to now saying everyone has got their priorities wrong because brexit is the only thing we should be worried about. And you say I'm patronising?
Honestly, this confirms again to me that the whole remain side of the debate has tragically disappeared up it's own backside. Which is a shame, because the remain argument used to be pretty much cut and dried. Now all I hear is wailing about how it's all Corbyn's fault, and if it wasn't for him everything would have been ok. It's pretty pathetic really.
dazh - thats just on here that you get this peculiar delusion about corbyn
tjagain, Jo Swinson Saying she would not go into a coalition with the Tories under Boris Johnson, or any party supporting Brexit.
Progress! Stil a hypocrite tho if she wants a second EU ref but not a second Scottish one
"The SNP have put forward this idea of IndyRef2 at subsequent elections and they have lost seats and lost votes."
Errmmm- the SNP have a majority / are the largest party in every election possible. @they have far more legitimacy and votes and seats in every forum than the lib dems.
Also still refusing to apologise for her part in 10 000 deaths and impoverishment of millions to give tory supporters tax cuts
Its OK tho - she is going to lose her seat with a bit of luck. Foul woman. She needs to join the tory party - her natural home
tj, I am not defending her. I know little about Jo Swinson, you appear to know a bit more, but a cursory Google search of Jo Swinson and tory coalition quickly brought that article to the top of the page which shows her ruling it out despite your claim. Could you be wrong about other things?
"Ok so she has ruled out coalition but......!"
Its from July but not something I have seen before. I stand corrected that she has ruled it out but its conditional on Johnson being in charge
I have a deep dislike of the woman tho because of her lack of repentance for the harm she has done- which must colour my views.
Of course I could be wrong about other things - much of political debate is opinion not fact.
it’s all Corbyn’s fault, and if it wasn’t for him everything would have been ok
Is that your grouse?
I don't think anyone's said that. I would say we're a long way up shit creek and any paddling he's managed to do has been in the wrong direction.
More seriously, building a cross parliament group to vote down the government should be just about withing grasp. He may be doing all kinds of wizzy behind the scenes stuff to achieve this, but blimey it's a long way behind the scenes if he is.
Maybe he does think he can win a post-crash out election, to deliver proper socialism? God knows I'd want him to win it compared to alternatives. But he won't.
john -several folk on here are blaming Corbyn and voting tory lite instead because its all his fault
Let's face it, it was a shock that he won the leadership contest,even to him.I was always under the impression that JC intended to reform the party moving power from the PLP back to the grassroots/membership so they had a greater say in shaping policy etc. making it less centralised.The subsequent challenge to his leadership probably only reinforced this view. Surely his original plan was about paving the way for a successor so that those with " radical left wing" policy views stood a chance ? IIRC he seemed ambivalent on whether he would even contest the 2020 election.The snap 2017 election, when let's face it ,he was expected to be electorally annihilated changed all that and his popularity on the hustings and his " personality cult" confounded many critics,but not Binners.In ordinary times I don't think that JC would contest the 2022 election but any succession planning is on hold as BJ may call a general election any time.If Labour win then he will stay on but if not he'll exit and no doubt someone with similar "radical left wing" views. less baggage, a sharper suit/twin set and better media presence will get elected as leader and maybe Binners will be happy.
brexit is the only thing we should be worried about
I have never said that.
Lots of other things I have never said in your little piece as well.
Now, was there a point to you trying to link grouse shooting to the EU, rather than except it as a very British issue?
Now all I hear is wailing about how it’s all Corbyn’s fault
No one thinks Corbyn is singlehandly delivering Brexit, but, in this thread about Corbyn, illustrating why people are disappointed with him without reference at all to Brexit is unlikely, admittedly. It’s not the only reason though, he’s just a disappointment… three years to win over the trust of the public has resulted in… well…not enough of it going on… and even losing voters who were previously on side. The gap between Labour members and Corbyn, on the issue of the EU (which YOU brought into this grouse shooting thing) is a very obvious example of why Corbyn is not bringing to the Labour Party what he promised… unfortunately. A more member led party would suit me just fine, as I’m to the left of many of the MPs, just as the party members are… but all Corbyn meant by it is the members have the power to accept the “strategy” of Milne&Co, or lump it.
thats just on here that you get this peculiar delusion about corbyn
Sadly it’s not. I hear a lot of people in real life saying similar. And Twitter is even worse with the whole FBPE thing transforming from what was a well intentioned but pointless bit of virtue signalling to a full on stream of Corbyn-is-the-devil fantasism.
The remain side of the argument has been hubristically detached from reality from day one. They never thought they would lose, they then wouldn’t - and still don’t - accept that they lost, then they make up all sorts of convoluted arguments to say the original result is invalid, and now when it looks like it is finally going to happen, they blame the wrong person/people. I guess people need their scapegoats,
One or two shrewd articles popping up in the Guardian recently.
"If it is so important that no deal is prevented at all costs, if this is not just all political posturing, then the “no Corbyns” sign has to come down off the treehouse."
Binners the issue of grouse shooting damaging the moors and flooding towns in the hills is a massive one. To the people who get flooded every other year in places like Todmorden and Hebden Bridge I can guarantee you it’s a much more important issue than the free movement of labour in the EU and trade tariffs.
Yet they probably should care about Brexit given that a fair chunk of the flood defence funding is coming from the EU, and the recent applications to UK Gov have been rejected.
Yet they probably should care about Brexit given that a fair chunk of the flood defence funding is coming from the EU
I’ve been waiting for this sort of comment. Shouldn’t we all be thankful that the EU is there to protect us and provide the things our own government tell us are unaffordable? Well that’s the problem. People quite rightly want and expect their own government to do these things. In many respects they see EU funding as charity. They don’t want charity, they want to stand on their own two feet*, and that’s why they voted for brexit.
*I don’t subscribe to this myself BTW. I have no problem with EU funding, but you have to understand and accept this fact if you want to understand brexit.
a fair chunk of the flood defence funding is coming from the EU
Err... you do know where the EU gets that money from? Don't you?
a fair chunk of the flood defence funding is coming from the EU
Err… you do know where the EU gets that money from? Don’t you?
I always laugh at this. After Brexit, we won't see any of that money. We will still get to pay the same taxes, but the money will go to billionaire Conservative party backers.
"Trickle down", etc, etc.
you do know where the EU gets that money from? Don’t you?
Getting diverted towards the EU thread here but as oldnpastit says. The problem is although it could be argued the money goes to the EU and back again if it didnt go that route that it wouldnt be used to help those deprived communities. Admittedly some money might go to the area in terms of more subsidies for the grouse moors owners to trash not only their land but everywhere near them but thats about it.
“Trickle down”, etc, etc.
In fairness in these cases without flood defences it is more than just a trickle down.
Err… you do know where the EU gets that money from? Don’t you?
Razor sharp. As ever.
Pfft!! Keep up at the back.
Grouse Moors are just, like, soooooooooo last week. On with the issues exorcising the nation even more than that....
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1161563464504156160?s=21
I think we got through another day without mentioning the B word, comrades.
Nothings happened on that front today, has it? No high profile Tories at each other like rats in a sack? No. I’ll scoot off back to the allotment then. Same time again tomorrow? We’ve not done rural buses for a while, have we?
Heaven forbid that the leader of the opposition should be concerned about the country's educational system! Whatever next?
Fair play to him... he got the university admissions system a footnote mention at the end of the today programme
They’d spent the previous hour discussing the big bust up with Hammond and Johnson over Brexit and the chaos around no deal planning.
One of Corbyn’s pygmies was on and asked for Labours position on the no deal preparations
It doesn’t actually have a position on it, but ‘the matter was being discussed’
The current system of predicted grades gives the wealthy a leg up and penalises disadvantaged students and those from ethnic minority backgrounds.
Any evidence for this? Will universities still be giving lower “offers” to students from poorly performing colleges/schools who impress when face to face? Actually, @northwind could help us understand the issues around this…
As for Brexit… Corbyn made it clear he would wait ‘till September… expect radio silence ‘till then at least (while Cummings is firing on all channels for the Leave team taking back control).
I’m sure Dom will have bought him a new watering can, or something, as a thank you for vacating the news agenda for the next month and giving them a clear run for their ‘No Deal’ propaganda
Corbyn wants Brexit - particularly a no deal Brexit - as bad as any member of the ERG. They are different sides of the same coin.
What he’s hoping for is for the Tories to tear themselves apart & GE which he’ll hope to win so he can implement a red unicorn Brexit.
If you want to stop Brexit you’ve really one party to vote for.....& it’s neither Labour or Tory.
Stop with that utter nonsense - do you really beieve that? totally ridiculous
True. Ridiculous to think that someone who spent his entire career (such as it is) railing against the E.U. could possibly be a Brexiteer?
You know he’s on holiday for a couple of months? Same as during the referendum campaign, then?
While Boris and Dom put everything in place for no deal
Is that picture a composite of your mind?
True. Ridiculous to think that someone who spent his entire career (such as it is) railing against the E.U. could possibly be a Brexiteer?
Terrific nuance.
BTW you have an alternative set of people to vote for. They have 13 seats. Go for it - subvert democracy all you want.
While Boris and Dom put everything in place for no deal
Right from the start Labour have been well against no deal.
But just not very successful at trying to stop it. I remember a couple of votes where they just sat on their hands.
Front bench isn’t exactly leading the charge.
Right from the start Labour have been well against no deal.
Yet have done the sum total of **** all to stop it, once they voted to facilitate it, including ruling out any political alliances to do so. All very Brexity.
Liek with all politicians, don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.
He's a Breiteer.
Interesting article in todays Guardian by Rafael Behr which sums up a lot of the Corbyn enthusiasts views on here
After the Brexit storm, a new political alliance could emerge
Especially this...
For Labour, the Lib Dems have always been a contemptible nuisance: plastic progressives; squatters who make it harder to evict Tories from office. The remain alliance will be viewed the same way and attacked as enablers of conservatism. Some hostility is rational given that the project’s purpose is to rival Labour for the status of principal national opposition. But giving venomous expression to that enmity is counterproductive. There is a strain of piety on the left that refuses to believe in valid political expressions of compassion that are not Labour-branded.
Since Corbyn does not identify himself as a remainer, his diehard supporters are obliged to see remain itself as a suspicious category – a tactical diversion by soulless centrists who cannot be sincerely worried about inequality or distressed by austerity because if they were they would surely be supporting Labour.
Bolstered by that moral arrogance, the official opposition party expects – nay, demands – that pro-Europeans do their duty and get behind the Labour leader as the only feasible candidate to replace a wicked Tory.
Corbyn wants Brexit – particularly a no deal Brexit – as bad as any member of the ERG.
And there in a nutshell is the current state of the remain side of the debate. Embarrassing.
Little wonder leave won the referendum with this sort of analysis, and if this is the best you can do I have no doubt a second referendum will go the same way. Not that we will get a new referendum, because those who claim to want one are childishly refusing to vote for the one party who can provide it.
Len McClusky is on the world at one at the moment.
He's reiterating labours determination to 'honour the result of the referendum' and leave the EU
How? ... Red Unicorns, comrades
Yet have done the sum total of **** all to stop it, once they voted to facilitate it, including ruling out any political alliances to do so.
A cursory look at the indicative votes clearly shows you are talking shit.
No surprise there.
And there in a nutshell is the current state of the remain side of the debate.
Sorry Dazh but that is also rubbish. There are plenty of sane remainers who dont spout that rubbish. Its just some are so driven by a hatred of Corbyn that they seem happy for the rabid right to push through a hard brexit. I suspect its in a hope that Labour will get wiped out and they can return to the glory days where only a small part of the population was courted for votes.
Its just some are so driven by a hatred of Corbyn that they seem happy for the rabid right to push through a hard brexit.
Joking aside, what can I do to stop a no deal Brexit? My instinct is not a lot.
Corbyn has got more sway than me. Yet he is seemingly doing nothing to stop it, he's not even talking about it to show the UK what the Tories are doing. And this is why a lot of people are pretty damn annoyed that the leader of the opposition is seemingly not trying to oppose a policy that will do long term damage to huge parts of the country, large parts of which contain the people that Labour should be standing up for.
Corbyn has got more sway than me. Yet he is seemingly doing nothing to stop it,
He can, for example, start speaking with the Cabinet Secretary to see whether the suspected approach would be invalid or not.
There can be negotiations with other parties and tory MPs which wouldnt have daily updates provided. My guess is thats happening although its going to be hamstrung by the LibDems equally obstinate approach and unwillingness to work directly.
A cursory look at the indicative votes clearly shows you are talking shit.
Horses and stable doors spring to mind.
We're going to crash out of the EU because it was the default once MPs had voted to trigger article 50
Remember that vote? The one where Corbyn 3 line whipped his MPs to support it, along with another two votes to confirm leaving the customs union and the single market
All looks pretty Brexity to me. And paying lip-service to trying to prevent no deal afterwards, while doing nothing whatsoever, is convincing absolutely nobody about Labours No Deal opposing credentials. Well.... nobody outside the bunker, anyway