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I've still not seen any actual defence of Corbyb's leadership abilities.
He needs to go. Who apart from the few tories on here thinks he shouldn't?
Jeremy Corbyn is not a leader. He’s never going to be a leader, never wanted to be a leader, is totally uncomfortable in the role as leader.
Which makes him uniquely qualified. What's that saying about those who seek power being the least equipped to wield it? Anyway, Alan Johnson is the last person to be giving advice on leadership, seeing as he repeatedly spurned the chance to lead the party because he couldn't handle the pressure or more likely had some skeleton in his closet that he feared would be revealed.
Funny that Corbyn's critics accuse him of navel gazing when they've spent four years doing nothing else. If labour MPs don't like Corbyn, there is a process in place whereby they can remove him. Until they put their money where their mouths are they can shut up quite frankly. Instead they stand on the sidelines, whining like spoilt children who aren't allowed any more sweets. Corbyn and his advisors have a lot of responsibility for the current situation, but not all of it. The MPs and others on the sidelines who still fail to accept that the members chose a non-centrist through democratic means bare just as much responsibilty. Until they accept that, nothing will change, and labour will continue in oppostion.
If labour MPs don’t like Corbyn, there is a process in place whereby they can remove him.
No there isn’t.
Care to elaborate?
The MPs can not replace the Party Leader. They can vote, every single one of them, that they have no confidence in him… and he can just shrug them off… and ask the rest of the party to keep him in his place.
A 2016 link for you…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36647458
In hindsight, the party should have listened to the people who have sat with him in the commons, and who he is supposed to be leading.
What’s that saying about those who seek power being the least equipped to wield it?
Plato's republic I think.
If your defence of Corbyn's leadership really is that he's least equipped to wield power I'm left shaking my head but yes, you really do have your guy.
Unfortunately he's not going to get to wield power, but at least he and you will be happy with this.
If your defence of Corbyn’s leadership
You miss my point. I'm not defending Corbyn, I'm challenging the idea that we need 'strong' political leadership. If you want strong or charismatic leadership have a look over the atlantic to see what that gets you. Or look at our current PM. I've had enough of narcissists and psychopaths being in power, so in that respect Corbyn represents something different, and interesting.
I’m not defending Corbyn
No one is, really.
So you think Labour needs a new leader, but not one like Trump or Johnson? Who’s going to disagree with you on that?!?
Funny that Corbyn’s critics accuse him of navel gazing when they’ve spent four years doing nothing else.
I wouldn't say they've spent four years doing nothing. They've sniped at Corbyn from afar, fallen over themselves to be 'a Labour source' for any two-bit tabloid hack who is dreaming up a story, stoked the flames regarding 'antisemitism' when the majority is justified criticism of Israel and generally just done the work of the Conservative attack dogs for them.
The Centrists/Blairites are like petulant children. Sulking because they are now finally being held accountable to the rank and file of the Labour Party by democratic means, and upset that can't have their ilk parachuted into safe Labour seats anymore, just by just chucking on a red rosette.
Centrist/Blairite supporters chuck about the word "purge" as if its a thing, but what we're actually seeing is democracy in action. CLPs are the bedrock of the Labour Party and it is only right that they represent their members interests, ahead of the self-interest of a few MPs who have overstayed their welcome.
The MPs can not replace the Party Leader. They can vote, every single one of them, that they have no confidence in him… and he can just shrug them off… and ask the rest of the party to keep him in his place.
When you say "ask", you mean vote? His opponents could try making a better argument than they managed last time.
The MPs can not replace the Party Leader. They can vote, every single one of them, that they have no confidence in him… and he can just shrug them off… and ask the rest of the party to keep him in his place.
I mean heaven forbid all party members have an equal vote eh?
Perhaps we should go back to the old system where everyone was equal, but some were more equal than others...
Funnily enough those who made the most noise about us plebs getting an equal vote to MPs were Centrists and Blairites such as Tom Watson, Chuka Umunna and Chris Leslie, individuals who were parachuted into safe Labour seats by their previous lord and master.
I’m not defending Corbyn, I’m challenging the idea that we need ‘strong’ political leadership
If strong means someone that is able to give a clear message, sort out problems such as the antisematic problem (which could have been sorted out within a week of it being highlighted), get the party to follow them because of their leadership qualities and things like that then yes Labour need a strong leader. People like Trump are not strong leaders by the way.
Perhaps we should go back to the old system where everyone was equal, but some were more equal than others…
Expelling the antisemitism enthusiasts who bought their way in for £3 would be sensible.
A couple of questions for the Corbyn fans then;
Regardless of what you, personally, think of him,
(a) do you think it's likely that he will ever be PM?
(b) do you think it more, or less, likely that someone chosen in his place would become PM?
Expelling the antisemitism enthusiasts who bought their way in for £3 would be sensible.
Antisemitism enthusiasts? Many are individuals who are quite justifiably criticising the apartheid regime in Israel and its brutal actions against Palestinians. Unfortunately people such as yourself jump on any criticism of Israel and label it antisemitism.
Of course there are undoubtedly antisemitic individuals within the Labour Party, as there undoubtedly are in every walk of life, but the problem is nowhere near as bad as the likes of yourself and a disgustingly biased press are trying to make out.
No bunker mentality here. No sir!
I mean heaven forbid all party members have an equal vote eh?
I didn’t argue against one member one vote, I was just reminding @dazh that the parliamentary party can not remove Corbyn. It’s right that all the members got to re-elect him after the MPs said he wasn’t up to job… it’s just that, with hindsight, they were wrong. He should have gone then. And it’s the whole country that is to pay the price for the misplaced confidence the members had in him, sadly. Corbyn should have stepped aside back in 2016, or after the 2017 “victory”, or the election loses of earlier this year… but that choice is his and the members, it is not that of the MPs… most of them know he’s now just a barrier to a Labour government, even if party loyalty means that they bite their tongues.
I voted Labour in 2017 by the way, and still think he performed a useful task of resetting Labour Party policy to be more inline with the wishes of members and voters on many issues. He’s been the wrong person to be Leader Of The Opposition for years though, even back when he may have been the right person to lead the Labour Party. And now… he is the wrong person to be either. Anyone and everyone can see this now… some are just too stubborn, or too thankful/loyal for his repositioning of Labour to the left, to admit it.
Antisemitism enthusiasts? Many are individuals who are quite justifiably criticising the apartheid regime in Israel and its brutal actions against Palestinians. Unfortunately people such as yourself jump on any criticism of Israel and label it antisemitism.Of course there are undoubtedly antisemitic individuals within the Labour Party, as there undoubtedly are in every walk of life, but the problem is nowhere near as bad as the likes of yourself and a disgustingly biased press are trying to make out.
So you don’t want your £3 back then?
Regardless of what you, personally, think of him,
(a) do you think it’s likely that he will ever be PM?
(b) do you think it more, or less, likely that someone chosen in his place would become PM?
Yes and yes.
What critics fail to recognise is that Corbyn is an idea not just a person.
As long as Labour stick to a radical agenda it really does not matter who leads it.
When someone says they wont vote labour because they don't like Corbyn they are just seeing a narrow subjective view.
If they don't like the policy then there is a debate to be had.
So you don’t want your £3 back then?
Are you trying to imply I'm one of those 'antisemitism enthusiasts' you sneeringly associate with the £3 membership charge? I will hold my hand up and admit I am a critic of the state of Israel, but that does not make me antisemitic, no matter what your rather simplistic understanding of the subject tells you.
As for the £3 membership (which I didn't make use of, having joined the Labour Party in 2007 when I left the military) what's the issue? When it was brought in the Labour Party was repositioning itself as a party of the people and trying to encourage wider participation in politics. Should such participation have a potentially onerous financial barrier or should a party that claims to be of the people only look to cover administrative costs?
The Labour Party is done.
Finished.
The three quid trots in the common room now own it. They own it because they broke it.
They’re now free to wave their placards, sign their petitions and sing ooooooooh Jeremy Corbyn! While the Tories get to carry on with their far right agenda, totally unopposed by anything resembling a credible opposition
Talk about middle class self-indulgence...
Talk about middle class self-indulgence…
Rather rich coming from a nailed-on centrist such as yourself.
Enjoy throwing your support behind the yellow Tories, I doubt anyone to the left is sad to see the back of you. Perhaps you could do one useful thing whilst your at it and take Tom Watson with you?
Sure fire path to government right there, comrade
You know how parliamentary democracy works, right?
You need people to actually vote for you?
You don’t get, like, double points for being self- righteously indignant and bathing in the light of your socialist halo
The Labour Party is done.
Keep saying this and you might get it right one day.
The three quid trots in the common room now own it. They own it because they broke it.
Does this mean you have finally resigned your membership?
Talk about middle class self-indulgence…
Wow the projection here really is quite stunning. For the last several years you seem to have dedicated yourself to trying to destroy the Labour party for having the cheek not to follow your personal beliefs.
The centrists as a whole have shown a rabid determination to destroy the left wing side of the Labour party whilst acting surprised when the favour is returned.
Perhaps if the centrists hadnt made it clear to Corbyn that they will still want to put a knife in his back as soon as they can then they might have more influence. As it is he would have to be ****ing nuts to trust them one inch.
This is without going into the centrists triangulation policy under Blair which saw hard right economic policies normalised as he chased them ever rightwards.
The centrists have ****ed up the UK political system by trying to turn Labour and the Tories into clone parties removing the choice from the majority of the population. Hell they have even screwed up the Libdems with the orange book mob.
You know how parliamentary democracy works, right?
You need people to actually vote for you?
This coming from the guy who is throwing his support behind the perennial fence sitters?
How many MPs do they have again? Few enough that they can go to their party conference in a single minibus?
You honestly think that they are the party to challenge a Tory party that is lurching increasingly to the right?
At the national level the Lib Dems are almost completely irrelevant and, at the moment, are as much a single issue (pro-EU) party as the collection of idiots Farage is responsible for. If anyone scratches beneath the surface of this single issue they'll see a party whose remaining MPs were largely responsible for ushering in austerity, with voting records to support this.
So if (when) the UK is dragged out of the EU on the 31st October the Lib Dems will actually become a complete irrelevance, given that aside from their pro-EU stance, many of their policies echo those of the centre-right Tories.
Cheers guys. Thanks for correcting my thought crimes against the glorious leader
If you can manage to so easily convince a lifelong labour voter, temporarily disillusioned (please St Jeremy, forgive me for I have sinned!) to stick with the programme through your open and pragmatic approach, convincing swing voters in key marginals should be a doddle
I keenly await the socialist utopia, outside the E.U., obvs, the upcoming general election will deliver
It's not corbyns socialism that's the problem it's his flip flipping & indecision over brexit and his inability to deal with issues like antisemitism in the party.
As divided as the nation is over brexit, he & labour should be polling much better his popularity ratings on every metric are below both Johnson & May 's
Considering just how much damage they've done to the UK that's bonkers!
The reason many on the left & centre are looking to the lib dems, snp , greens etc is that Corbyns strongest supporters have the party by the balls & just ignore all his negatives.
It’s getting harder and harder to have conversations with people who have (for their own very good reasons) stuck with the Labour Party through to 2019, isn’t it. Everyone else is now a Tory or a Centrist of some kind. Not a past Labour Left (but not Straight Left) voter who has had it with the current leader… those people (in their multitudes) are all made up. The Greens, and LibDems, and National parties are just going to have to be as welcoming as possible to their new voters and supporters, aren’t they.
It’s not corbyns socialism that’s the problem it’s his flip flipping & indecision over brexit and his inability to deal with issues like antisemitism in the party.
Corbyn isn't indecisive on Brexit, he wants Brexit, he wants the Conservatives to take the blame for all the downside and then use that to win a GE where his manifesto is unfettered by EU state aid rules and set up free trade agreements with Venezuela and Iran and use the permanent seat on the UN security council to destroy NATO etc
It’s getting harder and harder to have conversations with people who have (for their own very good reasons) stuck with the Labour Party through to 2019, isn’t it
Given the vitriol aimed here at anyone who doesn't denounce Corbyn as the devil, I suggest you have this the wrong way round.
...and set up free trade agreements with Venezuela and Iran and use the permanent seat on the UN security council to destroy NATO etc
You were doing so well but stopped short of the usual anti- Corbyn cliches.
- No accusation of him being an IRA supporter.
- No mention of him having an allotment
- No accusation of him being a Soviet spy.
- No accusation of those who support him being 6th Formers.
- No suggestive comment regarding his friendship with Diane Abbot.
- A distinct lack of a photoshopped picture of Corbyn in Red Square/stood next to Stalin/with a swastika on his arm* (*delete as appropriate).
3/10, please review and resubmit.
Corbyn isn’t indecisive on Brexit, he wants Brexit, he wants the Conservatives to take the blame for all the downside and then use that to win a GE where his manifesto is unfettered by EU state aid rules
The Tories should take all the blame. Look at the indicative voting.
And if there is a G.E and Labour clinch it and we start to reverse the vile policies of the last 10 years then that can be the best thing to come out of the this.
It’s not corbyns socialism that’s the problem it’s his flip flipping & indecision over brexit and his inability to deal with issues like antisemitism in the party.
Exactly, his policies are good and gained a lot of support n the election. He would have got away with it if it hadn't been for Brexit and those pesky jews.
It’s getting harder and harder to have conversations with people who have (for their own very good reasons) stuck with the Labour Party through to 2019, isn’t it.
Anecdotal perhaps?
I don't see the point in joining in a conversation on here that is just an exercise in fringe tabloid hysterics; often not funny or clever but usually without nuance.
Let's also face fact that a forum is not the best place to deal with politics. Our backgrounds, personal circumstances and experiences don't carry the same weight either.
People are generally pretty aggressive and demeaning too. Terrible on twitter too. It's getting increasingly difficult to seek out truth.
Given the vitriol aimed here at anyone who doesn’t denounce Corbyn as the devil
There does seem to be a lot of projection going on. I would have thought, if Kelvin and co, wanted a sensible discussion they would suggest binners calm down his rhetoric and inane picture sprees which, incidentally, he has been doing nonstop since Corbyn got elected.
The Tories should take all the blame. Look at the indicative voting.
Meanwhile, back in the real world....
Corbyn 3-line-whipped his MP's to trigger Article 50
Corbyn 3-line-whipped his MP's to vote against remaining in the single market
Corbyn 3-line-whipped his MP's to vote against remaining in the customs union
Credit where its due
He's a lifelong Brexiteer who has facilitated Brexit at very critical juncture. Ultimately, he is equally as responsible for the impending catastrophe as any member of the ERG. To pretend he isn't is just wilfully myopic
It’s getting harder and harder to have conversations with people who have (for their own very good reasons) stuck with the Labour Party through to 2019, isn’t it.
Kelvin, with the greatest possible respect, are you taking the piss? I know you probably think your very well thought out arguments are obvious and should persuade anyone who hasn’t jumped on the blame Corbyn bandwagon, but I’m afraid there is another side you just don’t see. I know because I was like you not that long ago.
I managed to open my eyes to the fact that millions of working class people don’t like the EU, or are disinterested in it. They do however want fundamental change to services and economic policies which directly affect them. This is why labour haven’t become a single issue brexit obsessed party like all the others. It’s why some of us also refuse to become obsessed by brexit. If you want to have sensible conversations then start by understanding and respecting this.
And the rest of you (because kelvin thankfully hasn’t indulged in this), grow up FFS. What you’re doing on here is classic schoolyard bullying of people who aren’t in your gang. Let’s see if we can go two pages without a monty python pic, or use of the words sixth form, bunker, comrade, or cabal.
Let’s see if we can go two pages without a monty python pic, or use of the words sixth form, bunker, comrade, or cabal.
Sadly these kind of posts have largely come from a single poster, who no doubt sees himself as an otherwise level-headed person. It's almost a 'chewkw' level of repetitive, troll-like behaviour.
This is why labour haven’t become a single issue brexit obsessed party like all the others. It’s why some of us also refuse to become obsessed by brexit. If you want to have sensible conversations then start by understanding and respecting this.
And hows that working out?
Saying that is all well and good, but Brexit, whether we like it or not, is the only game in town right now. You can't just wish it wasn't happening, because the implications of it are so enormous, politically , financially and socially. The effects of it will dictate this country's future for generations
Thats why a lot of us who would be natural supporters of left-leaning policies are so frustrated by Corbyn. When it comes to brexit, he is, at best, disengaged and ambivalent, but at critical junctures, an enabler. He's a Brexiteer who is happy to nod it through, but doesn't want ownership of it
He seems unconcerned that its a far right project he's actively enabling which will worsen everything he says he wants to improve
And you can talk about all the social reform in the world. You won't be able to do any of that with a contracting economy thats been plunged into recession, so it all becomes academic
He may be well intentioned but his actions won't lead to a fairer more equal society, they will deliver the polar opposite
We end up as a lap dog/satellite of the US, but more importantly all the achievements of the labour party (The NHS, Welfare State, workers rights etc) wil be rapidly destroyed in pretty much any Brexit scenario, particularly the No Deal we're screaming towards at the moment.
Remember... we're heading for no deal because Corbyn whipped his MP's to trigger article 50 (thankfully not the day after the referendum as he wanted) when government Brexit policy (such as it was) consisted of just 3 words .. Brexit means Brexit
Clueless! Totally ****ing clueless!
That may prove to be one of the worst and most far-reaching decisions any labour leader has ever taken
^ that
– No accusation of him being a Soviet spy.
Czech spy.
I managed to open my eyes to the fact that millions of working class people don’t like the EU, or are disinterested in it. They do however want fundamental change to services and economic policies which directly affect them.
These two things are almost entirely interdependent, whether people see it or not. A poor outcome in Brexit can only move social policy in one direction, and it's not a positive one. Whether or not people of any class or voting intention can make that connection, is largely irrelevant.
Not focusing on Brexit, while chatting about reform of the NHS/Welfare System/Workers' Rights is like planning your new car/house/holiday when you've just been given your redundancy notice.
5thElefant
Member
– No accusation of him being a Soviet spy.Czech spy.
Have you Czeched your sources on that?
#Gothenberghumour