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TurnerGuy, do you genuinely think that racism/bigotry is a bigger problem among the left than among the right-wing? And that they receive a proportionate amount of media coverage?
I doubt that, the whole agenda is to make the two terms synonymous so they can shout racist at anyone who suggests Israel should behave better than it does.
Yep, anyone that listens to LBC is in the same camp as a Daily Mail reader.
For the most part maybe but I think you’d be hard pushed to lump James O’Brien’s mid morning slot as that.
True but yet to see anything that resembles serious journalism on their site or links, keeps coming up with thin substance less opinion bits rather than anything researched.
Yeah but ultimately they consider themselves to ‘Lead Britain’s Conversation’ so it could be argued that it’s a station solely about opinion, not actual fact.
Anyway, I sound like a fan but I am not. I occasionally tune in when not in the mood for music in the car when O’Brien is on as I don’t care for Jim White on talksport
of course not for its all BS , smear and innuendo.
When Momentum recognize its not a smear, it is likely that you occupy a very narrow position.
Let's ha e some quotes meaty. What's your thoughts on the inherent racism in the tory party ?
acknowledges the anger, upset and despair within the British Jewish community at the numerous cases of antisemitism in the Labour party
Accusations of antisemitism should not and cannot be dismissed simply as rightwing smears nor as the result of conspiracies.
Current examples of antisemitism within the Labour party are not only a problem of a few, extreme ‘bad apples’, but also of unconscious bias, which manifests itself in varied, nuanced and subtle ways and is more widespread in the Labour party than many of us had understood even a few months ago
Each paragraph is a quote from their widely reported statement
There is a widespread resurgence of anti-semitism in many countries across Europe just now, as jamba is keen to remind us. Inevitably that means that people within the Labour party are affected. I'd have imagined that recognising this and doing something about it was a good thing, but apparently not. Same as meeting a spectrum of Jewish groups - it's clearly only acceptable to meet the Jewish groups who slavishly follow the Isreali party line.
perhaps it is anyone that makes comments like that that deserves comparison with a daily mail reader…
Did you hear that on LBC ?
the Tories are far more racist than Labour, however you want to define that (electors, members, elected representatives up to foreign ****ing minister) but to say that therefore any 'minor instances of racism in labour (party of which I'm a member) should be overlooked is pure whataboutery.
Regardless, what disheartens me is the shambolic way Corb and those around him address the situation. With a government in the state that it is, the opposition should be on the front foot ensuring we're not dumped into some isolating version of brexit, not getting tied up in knots over issues of antisemitism. Sure it's 'not fair' of the righwing press to exploit this. What do you expect them to do? I would hope for a bit of strategy and competence in meeting this.
but to say that therefore any ‘minor instances of racism in labour (party of which I’m a member) should be overlooked is pure whataboutery.
I don't think anyone has said don't do anything, more take some perspective, work out what is what, separate criticism of Israel from antisemitism and move forward. While as the press seem to want to to shine a very bright light on the way others in politics behave.
I am still waiting to see any Evidence of corbyns anti semitism. Its a simple orchestrated smear campaign
“Its a simple orchestrated smear campaign”
Its not really is it though, it’s not fictional. Momentum themselves have admitted theirs an issue with anti-semitism within Labour.
Whether JC is anti-Semite is hard to say, innocent till proven guilty, but the party he leads does have a problem. Then there’s the association of his particular brand of politics which has anti-colonial/imperialism overtones & you can see how the connection is being made.
JC hasn’t done himself any favours by then spending Passover with who he did - a more astute politician would have seen the trouble that move was going to cause & not made it..
JC hasn’t done himself any favours by then spending Passover with who he did
Which part of this do you consider reprihensable?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/03/jeremy-corbyn-passover-jewdas-good-news
Then there’s the association of his particular brand of politics which has anti-colonial/imperialism overtones & you can see how the connection is being made.
Not really, no I don't. Unless you are conflating criticism of the Israeli occupation with criticism of Jews. are you doing that?
Sadly Corbyn is not an astute politician.
“Which part of this do you consider reprihensable?”
I read that & I’ve also read up on Jewdas. The failure is to understand that associating with a group who’ve a reputation for being anti-zionists, where there’s an existing issue with anti-semitism within in his own party & the press are on the hunt, was going to be a bad idea.
I know anti-Zionism & anti-Semitism are 2 different things but, this is the important bit, some conflate the 2. I am not, but some do. JC should have been aware of this..
As I said - not the smartest move.
FWIW Jewdas seem to say something’s that need to be said - I’ve no problem with criticism of Israel where appropriate.
Hadley Freeman in the Guardian:
I can't believe this even needs saying, but apparently it does. The latest Corbyn anti-Semitism furore (pt 372940) isn't about him hanging out with The Wrong Jews - it's about him hanging out, again, with people who are in his comfort zone and say what he likes to hear
Instead of reaching across the aisle to some of the Jewish groups who attended the Enough is Enough protest last week, he opted for people who dismissed the protest and have described some of the anti-Semitism criticisms as "smears"
And that's totally fine for them! Each to their own opinion. But might this not have been a good time for Corbyn to extend a hand to those who feel angry and ignored, instead of running to those who don't?
What makes this even more infuriating is we are repeatedly told that Corbyn *does* reach across the aisle. That's why he said those kind words to Hamas and Hezbollah, we're told! But this strikingly doesn't seem to be the case when it comes to Jewish groups who disagree with him
TurnerGuy, do you genuinely think that racism/bigotry is a bigger problem among the left than among the right-wing?
never said I did, I was just linking to some commentry from Maajid whom I think has a pretty well balanced view on racism and religious issues.
imo Corbyn deserves as much stick as possible as he has a perverse idea of who he should associate with, although I am not sure that mural warrants the flack it has caused. But if he were any form of a leader he would have come out and said that he is anti what israel are doing and not anti-semitic, which is fair-enough. Or perhaps he is anti-semitic after all...
But this strikingly doesn’t seem to be the case when it comes to Jewish groups who disagree with him
It would be striking if it wasnt bollocks.
He had proposed meeting them but they initially declined.
Is JC actually being accused of anti semitism by anyone of note or is he simply being asked to address anti semitism quicker and better within the Labour party and associated organisations?
Both JC and Momentum have said there are issues within their organisations. When people from within his own party have called him out on what action is being taken then surely there are questions to be asked.
I agree that other political organisations have more issues with 'ism's' but when JC takes the moral high ground (and rightly so) and is then to be seen by some to be not doing enough, well that is disappointing. I totally disregard the shouty right wing bluster but Labour supporters constantly saying that the Torys are bad terrible people instead of addressing the questions being asked of JC isn't doing Labour any favours. IMO.
Or perhaps he's said it hundreds of times, but people are determined not to listen.....
Last week:
Jeremy Corbyn (JC): I’m not an anti-Semite in any way, never have been, never will be. I’ve opposed racism in any form all my life. It’s the way I was brought up, it’s the way I’ve lived my life. I recognise the hurt that’s felt within the community and that’s why I responded immediately with an invitation to the Jewish Leadership Council and the Board of Deputies to come and meet me. I did say that processes in our party had to be speeded up and that all of the recommendations of the Chakrabarti report had to be carried out so that we could address the issue. Let me say this very bluntly: anti-Semitism is a cancer in our society and it has resurfaced across Europe and in Britain in recent years. It has to be challenged at every single stage.
How often would he have to say it before you believed him?
imo Corbyn deserves as much stick as possible as he has a perverse idea of who he should associate with, although I am not sure that mural warrants the flack it has caused.
How much stick does the actually racist foreign sec deserve on the turnerguy scale of things?
If you are quoting Hadley you really are desperate and perhaps they should have invited him - was he meant to turn up uninvited to show how much he represents Jews? Now I cannot speak for other folk but i tend to not turn up at special religious feast of people who are attacking me and have not invited me. He will literally be attacked fr anything
Whether JC is anti-Semite is hard to say,
That must be why you posted all the evidence to support your view - its not hard at all to tell its complete BS.
JC hasn’t done himself any favours by then spending Passover with who he did
Wrong kind of Jews and he is the anti semite....this is where we are in the world he spends its with Jews and this proves he hates Jews. Somedays I feel like i have fallen into an alternative reality where the morons are in charge of everything and i have to debate at their level- not aimed at you as what you say is probably the majority view.
FWIW had he met the right[ wing] jews they would have still criticised him afterwards so it was never going to happen . If Boris, Gove May etc came to my house for tea its nto goign to change my opinion of them. To be fair i would let May in as she is misguided rather than reprehensible
How about Ken Livingstone's suspension and investigation was concluded? How long has that been rumbling on for?
when JC takes the moral high ground (and rightly so) and is then to be seen by some to be not doing enough, well that is disappointing
Some people like who? Like the Board of Deputies, who criticise JC and the same day blame the shooting of civilians in Gaza on the victims themselves? Do you really think there is anything to say or do that would satisfy such people?
“That must be why you posted all the evidence to support your view – its not hard at all to tell its complete BS.”
Selective quoting JY? Why not include my words where I said he was innocent till proven guilty? I’m hardly damning him..
As for the evidence I posted? All I posted was a link to a press release from Momentum themselves...again hardly BS as it’s ffom the horses mouth. Admittedly not JC, but Momentum nonetheless. They openly admit anti-semitism is more widespread than they thought.
And who he met? It’s all about the timing & in this instance his timing is shite.
The press are on the hunt & he goes & meets a group who are bound, by their very nature, to add fuel to the fire.
My main criticism of him is he appears to lack the tactical nouse of a good politician. His ability to engage in damage limitation seems fing abysmal.
Only an anecdote but I frequently have a pint with a local Jewish bloke who is a fanatic Zionist, always banging on about antisemitism and he's also the biggest and loudest racist that I know. This kind of exceptionalism is nothing new, Marx wrote about it 150 years ago, but it certainly helps me understand all their references to tribes etc. and the visceral hatred for Corbyn. Desmond Tutu said the treatment of Palestinians by Israel is worse than what blacks endured under apartheid. It can't last.
I am still waiting to see any evidence of Corbyns anti semitism.
“I am still waiting to see any evidence of Corbyns anti semitism.”
I don’t think there is any TJ, but his poor judgement & inaction have stirred up a sh1tstorm & he’s only got himself to blame.
For the record I’d be amazed if it turned out he was.
Selective quoting JY?
Yes its true i did not quote your entire post well spotted. I think that why its a quote and not the whole thing. HTH
As for the evidence I posted? All I posted was a link to a press release from Momentum themselves
Yes my point was, how did you miss it?, that you had no evidence to support the view he was an anti semite but you still seem unsure as to whether he is...its hard to tell
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">I have no evidence you are an anti semite, but i have a quote to show its prevalent in society, should i say its hard to tel if you are one or not ? . is that a reasonable position for me to take?</span>
Admittedly not JC, but Momentum nonetheless.
So they never said he was an anti semite but its hard to tell if he is. they never said you were either so its hard to tell if you are etc
Are you getting how daft your argument is yet?
Corbyn has campaigned all his life against racism unlike many of those attacking him [ not aimed at you I dont think you are racist I am just using it as an example of how muddled the thinking is]
"Are you getting how daft your argument is yet?"
What exactly do you think my argument is?
I'll tell you what, I'll save you the time.
I don't think he's anti-semitic, I think he's a sh1t politician. Someone with a bit more tactical acumen would have headed off this mess, of his own creation, long ago. He made it easy for the press to go after him.
I'm off - gym & a job interview.
Later.
"Some people like who"
Labour members, including Yvette Cooper, Harriet Cooper, Chuka Umunna, Ian Austin, Stephen Doughty, Liz Kendal and John Woodcock who joined the Westminster protest.
I don’t think he’s anti-semitic
what started this
Whether JC is anti-Semite is hard to say,
Good luck with the job interview
But tj, nobody (nutters aside) is saying JC is personally an anti-Semite, they are (opportunistically and hypocritically in many cases) saying the party has a problem with it and the leadership hasn’t done enough to address it.
Junkyard, regarding the hypocrisy charge, I heard someone say the Tory party has at least as much of a problem with “isms” on the Spectator podcast of all places! It seems to me the rapid expansion has hoovered up a lunatic fringe, unsurprisingly!
He made it easy for the press to go after him.
The thing is there is absolutely nothing he can do to appease the hard right parts of the press.
There is very little he can do to appease the "centre left" parts of the press.
It doesnt matter how much "tactical acumen" he does or doesnt have. Unless he abandons all positions and dives rightwards they will keep the continual smear campaigns going.
heard someone say the Tory party has at least as much of a problem with “isms” on the Spectator podcast of all places!
Historically the right always has, and always will have, more issues with racism and I doubt it is any different now. All they seem to do now is attack islam, saying its a race not a religion whist vehemently striving to find anti semitism everywhere. Its weird how much they protect Jews/Israel and how much they attack Muslims.
“Is it any wonder that Labour can't be bothered to deal with the disgusting antisemitism in their party when they are so reliant on the votes of Britain's exploding Muslim population? It's a question of maths for these people, not justice!”
This is the sort of thing that sums up their positions tweet from Leave EU for example.
The unfortunate thing is post brexit discrimination and racism is on the rise - to blame the left for this is, at best, misguided but they are not free of this society wide malaise.
The unfortunate thing is post brexit discrimination and racism is on the rise
does brexit account for the rise of racism and anti-semitism across europe as well ?
maybe the large amounts of uncontrolled immigration favoured by the EU has had more of an effect.
One of the real problems is useless politicians.
Chuka, etc might be dismayed that brexit was the choice and pointed out afterwards that there ways that we could have more control over immigration, within the rules of the EU, but wtf did they only become 'aware' of these possibilities after the campaigning was over ? Why did they not point out how much this country needs immigration to support the number of pensioners - which would have appealed to the older generation?
Brexit didn't cause people to become racist, they were already racist. What Brexit did (with its immigrants are evil mantra) was to make racism look like an okay thing so people felt more comfortable letting their racist feelings known
At least we are not Bulgaria...
So apart from random links what does that prove? It's not possible that JC is racist or anti semitic or that he is or that the UK has a problem with racism or that it doesn't??
http://www.kickitout.org/news/kick-it-out-reveal-reporting-statistics-for-201516-season/
This is the most ridiculous 'debate' I've ever come across. The fact that there are some people in the labour party who are racist is no more surprising than there being racists in the tory party. The main difference is that the labour party actually give a shit about it. They also give a shit about human rights and innocent people being slaughtered by aggressive governments. In this case their opponents who don't give a shit about any of these things are using the fact that the labour party do to criticise them for not doing enough about it.
What is most outrageous is not that the tories are using this to attack Corbyn, that's to be expected. The most disgraceful element of this is that the moderate wing of the labour party are allowing their party, and by proxy their supporters to be smeared as racists for expedient political point-scoring against Corbyn. I've never really agreed with the idea that Corbyn's critics should be deselected or ejected from the party but I'm beginning to change my mind.
In case anyone is still in doubt about who Corbyn's critics are ...
http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/board-congratulations-trump/
The most disgraceful element of this is that the moderate wing of the labour party are allowing their party, and by proxy their supporters to be smeared as racists for expedient political point-scoring against Corbyn.
Interesting. So how come even Momentum say that "Accusations of anti-Semitism should not and cannot be dismissed simply as right-wing smears." And that “<i>Momentum’s National Coordinating Group (NCG) acknowledges the anger, upset and despair within the British Jewish community at the numerous cases of antisemitism in the Labour Party and the Party’s failure to date to deal with them in a sufficiently decisive, swift and transparent manner.”?</i>