Jeremy Corbyn

🙄 oob is trolling now?

If you want logic - it's patently absurd because if too many people are unsuccessful they will vote to change a government.

Surely that applies to a government of any complexion.

1) It suggests that to be a leftie, you aren't actually a leftie, just someone who wants power and votes at any cost.
2) It suggests that as soon as someone becomes successful, they forget who made them so, so they change allegiance.
3) It suggests that people are incapable of compassion. I.e. people will only look after themselves, not others.

Labour performed strongly with good employment among working class people earning low but fair wages.

Are you saying those people are successful or unsuccessful?

Surely that applies to a government of any complexion.

It's far more nuanced than that, as you know.

Voters are not rational operators, for a start. And most of them are successful in some areas and not in others. And it's not at all clear why this is the case.

So it's very difficult, if not impossible to link most government policies with most of your problems.

That's where the logic breaks down. I haven't really got time here to write a political essay. But the way people choose governments is not at all rational.

1) It suggests that to be a leftie, you aren't actually a leftie, just someone who wants power and votes at any cost.
2) It suggests that as soon as someone becomes successful, they forget who made them so, so they change allegiance.
3) It suggests that people are incapable of compassion. I.e. people will only look after themselves, not others.

It's far more nuanced than that, as you know.

If so you can't just say "One party is for the benefit of successful people and one party is for unsuccessful people.".

If so you can't just say "One party is for the benefit of successful people and one party is for unsuccessful people.".

That's not what I said, is it?

That's not what I said, is it?

I must confess I thought that's what this meant:

Conservatism can be boiled down to this question:
"I managed to succeed - why can't you?"
The conservative asks this as a rhetorical question, and does not expect an answer. The leftie asks it as a real question and listens to the answer.

If you meant, "all the parties do their best for as many people as they can because that's a vote winner" then I'd agree.

If so you can't just say "One party is for the benefit of successful people and one party is for unsuccessful people.".

Might not be literal inheritance, maybe a guaranteed management job at the family company. People in a council estate are much less likely to have that prospect.

Good article here for the "corbyn is unelectable" repeaters, read the Labour policies and decide if you think they are a good idea or if you disagree with them rather than just going along with the media attack on a person

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/how-to-answer-lazy-corbyn-is.html?m=1

That and being able to afford to move near to better schools, better fund higher education or vocational choices and to support their kids. Being comfortable and budgeting is a long way from surviving.

I must confess I thought that's what this meant:

My comment was about people's motivations to vote - not the policies of the parties.

all the parties do their best for as many people as they can because that's a vote winner

But again - voters are not rational actors. If we were, politics would be completely different.

We know that people's opinions can be shaped by campaigning. So even though campaigning doesn't change anyone's material circumstanes, it affects how people vote. In other words - people can be persudaed either way.

So it might be more worthwhile for a government to curry favour with those who control media or other organisations, rather than voters themselves. Which would require a completely different set of priorities from a government, wouldn't it?

See people in the USA with no healthcare campaigning against universal healthcare.

All of them ? Most Tories I know haven't inherited anything as their parents are still alive.
Grandparents? Great grandparents?

Pointless banging head against a wall, Mol, the concept of privilege and nurtured mindsets is lost on this one...

and now for some policy

It says it would:
Scrap Mrs May's Brexit plan - outlined in a White Paper in February - which envisages leaving the single market and customs union
Focus on a deal that "retains the benefits" of both organisations
Guarantee the legal status of the three million EU nationals living in the UK on its first day in office
Press for a reciprocal guarantee for the 1.2 million Britons living on the continent
Replace the government's proposed Great Repeal Bill - which would scrap the 1972 European Communities Act and transpose myriad existing EU laws applying to the UK into domestic law - with an EU Rights and Protections Bill

When I heard that policy this morning, I thought that that could well change a lot of peoples attitudes. Especially being espoused by keir starmer, who's one of the very few credible voices on the opposition front bench

Its almost as if it can be described as centrist?

On comparison of both main parties policy on Brexit, theres only one that now looks extreme to the point of being unhinged.

The trouble is that I can now hear the Mail and the rest of the right wing attack dogs winding themselves up into full blown Enemy of the People hysteria for having the effrontery to confront their self-destructive isolationist utopia.

But its certainly progress to put a more moderate policy to everyone on a subject where most people see the present government direction of travel of an ultra-hard Brexit as completely bonkers, and economically suicidal!

Unfortunately policy is all over the place - his stay in single market is based on being able to get the EU to agree to changes in Freedom of Movement which they have said is not on the table.

Would be good to chuck in FOM too then. It would be a popular policy

Do you think the penny has finally dropped that the present lot aren't likely to be using Brexit as the opportunity to create a socialist workers utopia after all?

Better late than never, I suppose?

Unfortunately policy is all over the place

Perhaps, but it's a stated specific aim - better than 'the best possible deal' which is hugely subjective.

Seems ok to state what they want up front - one could certainly imagine partial concessions being agreed upon in each area. So perhaps single market access in some areas, in response to easier movement of labour (but perhaps not free).

It would seem to make sense for say EU citizens to be able to relocate here, rather than simply work here and send all their money back home..

Not really - just unrealistic Brexit. His position is basically the same as the Government's if you accept FOM is a red line.

just unrealistic Brexit. His position is basically the same as the Government's if you accept FOM is a red line.

It is for Europe so any deal premised on relaxation is pie in the sky and thus perfect for the current Labour party.

and the current tory party, though they feel like ruling more out before they start so a much weaker negotiating position

Without getting into the whole EU debate again, it seems the 2 main parties are saying we should be going into negotiations with very different attitude. From what I've heard this morning Labour is proposing a far softer, less confrontational approach, with an open mind on where the red lines are drawn, allowing for compromise.

The Tories are just bowling in, waving their little flags, telling everyone to stick their single market, customs union and FOM, and if you don't like it then you can **** off

Given that every other issue is secondary to Brexit in this election, if those battle lines have now been drawn in that manner, that can surely only benefit the labour party?

binners - Member
The Tories are just bowling in, waving their little flags, telling everyone to stick their single market, customs union and FOM, and if you don't like it then you can **** off

Vote winner for the Brexiteers who will all be voting Tory. I guess Corbyn/Farron need to get Tory remainers on board...

https://order-order.com/2017/04/25/new-tory-attack-ad-hits-corbyn-on-defence/

the Conservative fleet puts a shot across the bows of the Corbyn flotilla

what else have they got in the archive?

Given that every other issue is secondary to Brexit in this election, if those battle lines have now been drawn in that manner, that can surely only benefit the labour party?

Vote winner for the Brexiteers who will all be voting Tory. I guess Corbyn/Farron need to get Tory remainers on board...

Didn't Zac Goldsmith recently demonstrate that there are quiet a few of those to be had.

Like I said, if Labour is going to not just address the Brexit issue (instead of the head-in-the-sand attitude its had so far), but put forward a more nuanced, intelligen, less confrontational t approach, then that can only win them votes, surely?

Lets be honest... the Mail reading, hysterical, racist, hard-of-thinking are never going to vote labour anyway. Their default is the Tories, or UKIP. But as the Richmond by-election showed, there are more intelligent natural Tory voters who are pro-remain, or very uncomfortable about the present hardline approach.

I know that their natural ground would be to vote Lib Dem, but I presume this is Labours pitch to try and nick a few of those voters too?

It's a big assumption to make given how divisive it all is (unless May really does think she has unified the country)

But as the Richmond by-election showed, there are more intelligent natural Tory voters who are pro-remain, or very uncomfortable about the present hardline approach.

Yep but don't read too much into it, as that was By-election, not a GE. People who would have been willing to kick the Government in a by-election, where the outcome on the government majority is already known, are far less likley to gamble in a GE.

On this one I'd say bets are off, there is a lot more to loose.

Like I said, if Labour is going to not just address the Brexit issue (instead of the head-in-the-sand attitude its had so far), but put forward a more nuanced, intelligen, less confrontational t approach, then that can only win them votes, surely?

Yep agreed state what your intentions/ambitions are and hold the Tories to account on theirs. TM can only get away with nothings like red/white/blue Brexit or strong/stable for so long.

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/gran-who-doesnt-understand-politics-really-impressed-by-theresa-may-20170424126456 ]I wish I shared your confidence[/url]

May has a substantial policy position on Brexit, which she laid out in a detailed speech earlier in the year. A speech that has been greeted by those that matter in the EU as a good starting place for negotiations. Does it cover, of course not, but it is clear and straightforward. All this noise about confrontation etc is just noise based on comments made by nutters on both sides like IDS and Verhofstadt.

The Labour position is harking back to days of Cameron's last negotiations, the EU would say go back to the drawing board and come up with something we can talk about.

Re: Richmond where I live, don't read too much into it. First it was soon after the referendum when feelings were much more pronounced. All polling suggests the electorate has cooled down alot except for a small noisy minority on both sides, so while Brexit will be an issue it won't be the only one. (It was also a relatively safe LibDem seat until Zac came along). Second, the LibDems poured resources into the constituency at the by-election, which a partyless Goldsmith couldn't match. He still only just lost, so I think there is a good chance of it reverting to the Tories whoever the candidate is.

Just to keep you happy, the Guardian are reporting that lots of Northern Labour MPs are reporting that Theresa May is very popular on the doorstep. This doesn't surprise me, I had a sneaking suspicion she was going to be very popular when she was elected.

I had a sneaking suspicion she was going to be very popular when she was elected.

She's been elected already? That was a snap election...

She's been elected already?

As Tory leader.

May has a substantial policy position on Brexit, which she laid out in a detailed speech earlier in the year. A speech that has been greeted by those that matter in the EU as a good starting place for negotiations

Pointless banging head against a wall, Mol, the concept of privilege and nurtured mindsets is lost on this one...

I grew up in a council house, went to state schools in Tooting and then Andover and went to Uni on a full grant as my parents who both worked earned very little. I understand the concept of privilege, where I disgree with you is that its a tiny fraction of the population. I have inherited nothing from my parents, grandparents or great grandparents. Neither have my parents. @ukyses your pantomine post towards me is very very wide of the mark.

Some of these sweeping generalisations and stero typing are quite startling, espcecially from those here who claim to be piberal and open minded. Likewise insulting working class Tory voters, they make their decsion based on sound principles just as do any of us.

The United States was founded by people with nothing, its one of the most right wing countries in the world as those who have built a life starting with nothing want nothing from the state other than the opportunity to work.

Not really - ruled out Freedom of Movement which Starmer has done (although it will be interesting to hear what Corbyn says), ruled out ECJ jurisdiction and ruled out big contributions. (Probably ruled out Customs Union too, but there may be some room for manoeuvre)

The United States was founded by people with nothing,

#jambafact

TM is coming to Wales and has a piece in the Western Mail. I've only read some excerpts on the BBC website but yes @binners like your Mash link people will be lapping it up.

I grew up in a council house

Ok fine - this comes under the "I managed it why can't you?" argument from this morning. So two questions:

1) Do rich people have better opportunities than poor ones?

2) Is it always poor people's own fault that they are poor?

The United States was founded by people with nothing

Guess they didn't teach you history at your state school cos that's very much not at all true.

[img] :large[/img]

Tory Party lead Labour by 13% among those that earn less than £20,000

Theresa May is very popular on the doorstep. This doesn't surprise me, I had a sneaking suspicion she was going to be very popular when she was elected.

remarkable considering her incompetence as home sec, but I fear sadly true

From a personal perspective a lot older people I know who would only ever vote Tory are stating they won't this time due to the omnishambles that is Brexit.

Whereas the Pro-Brexit ones who would still vote Tory are fed up with the endless voting, and have got what they want, so may not bother this time ...

If this attitude is common, then who knows how the voting could go.