Jeremy Corbyn

🙂 the leader anyway

It happens to me too. I go into a meeting thinking "Don't say Chaos, don't say Chaos." ...and then I blurt out "Chaos". (Or whatever the word I need to avoid is.)

...JC is well on the way to becoming May's straight man. Cannon, to May's Ball. Earnie to May's Eric. Sets up the lines week after week.

I believe it was another masterful performance at PMQ's. The government faced a rebellion over its proposed raises to NI contributions to the people deemed to be their natural core support, forcing it into a U Turn

Jeremy completely omitted to even mention it, and just chuntered on to himself, aimlessly instead.

Brilliant!

Once again faced with an open goal, he spoons it into row Z.

Eh - did you watch last week's or something Binners?
It was a bit weird for him to ask what the hole in the budget would be filled by, but he definitely pushed it. He asked for an apology from the PM for all the stress and chaos caused for people who would have been effected over the last week.

He did mention it watching it now, weak is barely suffiecient enough to describe it... the man has no authority what so ever.

[I]the man has no authority what so ever. [/I]

Reminds me of one of my uncles. He could be sat in the corner of your room right now, not that you'd know it.

Alex - stress for those affected ? It only affected those on over £40k pa (some commentators said £60k), the changes where small (frankly tiny) and there where phased in. Being self employed is a massive tax dodge opportunity, tax free dividends, sharing income between "employees", deferring income/tax, loans with minimal benefit in kind taxation. As Hammond's letter says self employed are paying £5bn pa less in tax/ni than equivalent employees and this will rise to £6bn pa by 2020. The Govt is conducting an invstigation into the impact but the conclusion is obvious. I openly posted on here a while ago that I am focused on non PAYE work as it's so beneficial tax wise.

I assume Jamba that you are not self employed or running a small limited company
?

Ironic that the Tories (a) screwed up and (b) get flak for introducing a progressive tax change. Its an amusingly ironic world that we live in, ful of wonderful contradiction.

I know nothing about rhe Dutch Labour party - if it is similar to our version - but their failure yesterday makes Jezza look quite good. 😉

Being self employed is a massive tax dodge opportunity, tax free dividends, sharing income between "employees", deferring income/tax, loans with minimal benefit in kind taxation

You are absolutely confusing being self-employed up with running a company. One is employed and pays NIC, PAYE, CT, Dividend Tax the other pays income tax and NIC.

Either position can be abused. But do no conflate the two.

Do you understand how the loans system works?

Dodging tax is generally the preserve of high earners no matter the state of employment . As long as you can avoid a tax scheme you can pay a specialist to perform all sorts of magic. It's not the preserve of the self employed.

We went through a major VAT inspection a few years ago. They almost tore my company apart to find they owed ME £140.

Did I mention we pass on VAT too?

I've been both self employed and in a company structure and neither saves me much tax.

jamba - you seem to be confusing JC's comments with my own.
I put my comments in the appropriate thread.

We went through a major VAT inspection a few years ago. They almost tore my company apart to find they owed ME £140.

Had similar when I was a contractor. They found a payment of £23 into my account that I couldn't explain. All other payments being regular, and in the thousands.

"You owe us the VAT on that" the inspector said with a sense of smugness.

Then I found an old VAT rebate notification. £23.

🙂

"Ironic that the Tories (a) screwed up and (b) get flak for introducing a progressive tax change. Its an amusingly ironic world that we live in, ful of wonderful contradiction."

I do love seeing Labour arguing against a Tax rise and simultaneously asking where the shortfall is coming from in an overspend.

Reminds me of China telling the USA off for spending too much on welfare!

Alex, understood

@rone, the NIC change impacted those earning £40k (or £60k depending on source) - high earners ? I forget the avg impact £240pa wasn't it ?

Self employed / small limited company tne two go together imo

As someone who has a good well paid job under PAYE I can say there are pretty much zero "tax dodge's" available. We have got to the point where saving for retirement starts being called a tax dodge while those on defined benefots schemes like Surgeons and MPs attract zero critism.

jamba, can you tell me how I can get some of those "tax free dividends" ?

Being a ltd company owner, I'm all ears. The only dividends I can currently access are after corporation tax of 20% has been paid and then I can access up to £5k (coming down to £2k following the budget) without paying additional tax. Otherwise it's an additional 7.5% tax up to the higher rate threshold, then it jumps up to 32.5%.

Self employed / small limited company tne two go together imo

Rubbish. That's such a generalisation as to not make any sense if you're trying to objectively analyse tax status.

As someone who has a good well paid job under PAYE I can say there are pretty much zero "tax dodge's" available

That's because you have not employed the services of a creative accountant.

You absolutely can.

Being a ltd company owner, I'm all ears. The only dividends I can currently access are after corporation tax of 20% has been paid and then I can access up to £5k (coming down to £2k following the budget) without paying additional tax.

Absolutely.

Two of us: We pay 20% Corp, then a bit of PAYE/NIC and then tax on dividends.

We've been taxed at 3 different points.

@rone, the NIC change impacted those earning £40k (or £60k depending on source) - high earners ? I forget the avg impact £240pa wasn't it ?

I didn't mentioned anything about the NIC U-turn / rise. I was saying that high-earners in general can make the best use of creative accountancy because the fees/commission are so high to do it you have to be making it worth your while.

Besides the 'mean-old' Tories can't surely justify the NIC rise and the Corporation tax reduction? I mean what signal does that send out.

Idiots.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/profile/nickcohen ]A perfect summary of the disaster that is Corbyn, in an open letter to the idiots who've kept him there, by Nick Cohen[/url]

It's kicking off

Tom Watson? @tom_watson the twitter war is on against Jon Lansman

Is blaming labour party members who voted for Corbyn now the agreed line? Are they going to extend this logic to the nation at large? It's all the fault of those bloody voters isn't it! It's highly ironic that Cohen quotes a labour MP that Corbyn is undermining democracy when this line of argument has the implicit implication that voters shouldn't be allowed a choice. If he and his ilk really believe that the people who voted for Corbyn did so because they thought it would usher in a 20th century style socialist revolution then getting rid of Corbyn will make no difference.

It's all academic. This ineffective moron needs to be gone! And he needs to be gone now! Because the stakes are so high, and it's an insult to the electorate for him to even use the title 'leader of the opposition'.

It's a testament to how detatched from reality him and his sixth form followers are from reality that they've got the front to continue with their pathetic, totally ineffective lefty project! Self-indulgence at its most extreme. But then they won't be the ones paying the price as this catastrophe unfolds, will they?

Don't disagree that he needs to go. But not learning the lessons of why he was elected in the first place will result in the same thing as it did before - defeat. Without wanting to go over old ground, you need to see beyond Corbyn. What labour members expect is not a hard-left marxist revolution, but a leadership which listens to them and a government which represents them. If you believe Cohen instead they're going to get a leadership which blames the membership for whatever failings may occur in future.

[i]Self employed / small limited company tne two go together imo[/I]

They don't in HMRC/Govt land, both have distinct rules.

But, I will agree that we've a far too complicated tax system and IMO all income to an individual should be taxed exactly the same no matter where it comes from, and no matter whether that individual is working/not-working or retired. This would also include the 'retirement' of employee NI, with a corresponding rise in income tax.

This would also restrict the Govt on its 'schemes', so income from renting out a bedroom is treated for example the same as renting out a house.

And also citizens are entitle to the same benefits (and state pension), or maybe we could bring it all together as a guaranteed citizens 'income'?

What labour members expect is not a hard-left marxist revolution, but a leadership which listens to them and a government which represents them..

All too easily forgotten is the fact that the job of the LP isn't just to deliver what it's members want - it's constitution is very clear on this:

[i]The party shall bring together members [u]and supporters who share its values[/u] to develop policies, make communities stronger through collective action and support, and promote the election of Labour Party representatives at all levels of the democratic process.[/i]

What labour members expect is not a hard-left marxist revolution, but a leadership which listens to them and a government which represents them..

As the number of people who join and remain members of political parties has reduced massively over the last few decades, so the members who remain are, politically often rather removed from the mainstream electorate. The labour party membership seems to be made of the remnants of the 80's hard left and a large number of younger people, who have never learned the lessons of the 80's and 90's. The labour party membership is never going to have a government that represents them - the rest of the country have moved on and the votes needed to form a government are in the centre, not on the hard-left wing.

This is why, pre-Milibean the MPs had a large say in selecting the leader (they have, logically a desire to shape a vote-winning party ) and the members voice was much reduced. As long as the party members get to say who the leader is the labour party will be condemned to irrelevance.

him and his sixth form followers

I don't think that is fair - they are a bit more advanced than that.

More like the angry pre-graduate lefties that hung around in the student union bars argueing loudly and banging their fists angrily on the bar, or deploying the ballot boxes during student union elections, but moving them slightly to locations that only the lefty voters knew about.

I remember the type who were completely welcoming to foreigners while handing out abuse to those who came from the 'wrong' part of the UK. Lovely folk 😥

Anyway why is Corbyn still the 'leader', he is so irrelevant he hardly gets any press time anymore.

cranberry - Member
As long as the party members get to say who the leader is the labour party will be condemned to irrelevance.

Without the members who would the PLP pick?

dragon - Member
Anyway why is Corbyn still the 'leader', he is so irrelevant he hardly gets any press time anymore.

Poisened chalice?

Without the members who would the PLP pick?

Well, that is another part of the problem for Labour - they started off with the choice of the right Miliband, picked the wrong one, talent left the party. Lost an election, talent left the party. Picked Corbyn, talent left the party. Picked Corbyn a second time, talent left the party.

Momentum/Unite take-over - Anyone want to guess what will leave the party ?

Soon Rebecca is going to look like part of the talent pool of the party. I am not sure how the party gets out of its self-imposed death spiral, if it can.

I am not sure how the party gets out of its self-imposed death spiral, if it can.

I am not sure it will. Labours chances of getting power went seriously downhill with the loss of Scotland to SNP. You can't lose that many seats and get away with it.

I would guess it will be at least 15 years of Tory government before anyone else has a chance. It is the standard pattern isn't it. Tories in for many terms until their policies become more and more extreme and the population suddenly wakes up to how bad they are for the average person.

"I am not sure how the party gets out of its self-imposed death spiral, if it can."

This.

Corbyn's election will remain an open goal for years after he's gone. What floating voter is gonna vote for a party which is known to be hard left at it's core?

I just don't see the way back.

Having said that, I thought Trump would lose, and I got that wrong. Core party voters can be surprisingly loyal.

The thing is that he's now considered to be such a liability, and so useless, that once you've hit those depths (19 points behind in the latest polls) there's just no coming back from it. Its been a death spiral from day one!

He was on the north west news the other night, visiting a local council. The local labour bods tried to look enthusiastic, but the rictus smiles screamed "will you please * off back to Islington before we all get contaminated by your awful 1970's lefty veneer". About as welcome as a fart in a space suit

Then local news guy interviews him. His first question... and I'm paraphrasing slightly, but... "you're a bit shit, aren't you really? Everyone thinks so. So when are you going to do the decent thing, and * off?"

He then parroted off his usual "blah, blah, blah... elected by the membership... blah, blah, blah... mandated from the people....."

So its clear that no matter how bad it gets, he'll cling on like a particularly determined chug-nut

I'd imagine that this goes on in different parts of the country from time to time, but less and less, until even little local papers won't bother to cover his visits any more. Why would they? Its not like he's got anything to say. And unless he's visiting a 6th form common room, absolutely nobody is going to be glad to see him

I think all this talk of 15/20-years of tory government, etc is nonsense.
If the recent past has told us anything, it's that anything can turn around in an instant.

One of the most eye-opening things for me recently though is that the more right-wing you are, the more impervious to scandal you become.
All the stuff being thrown at Trump and nobody seems to care, except all the people who never liked him in the first place. As soon as someone on the left gets a tiny bit of scandal, all the centrists seem to leap on it.
It seems that as soon as you are accepted as being right wing - you are expected to be pretty mercenary/morally corrupt or you're not doing it right.

and, of course, even if he falls on his sword after a calamitous election performance, the structure that milli put in place for electing a new leader will lead to the same kind of freakish result. Yes, less contaminated, but still no more likely to be electable by the wider population, and that's even before any wider Lansmann stitch up of the machinery of the party.

"seems to care, except all the people who never liked him in the first place. As soon as someone on the left gets a tiny bit of scandal, all the centrists seem to leap on it."

Trump has the lowest approval ratings ever. I'm not sure you can offer him as an example as popular with Centrists.

Not sure Trump is right wing either. He's basically been elected on Corbyn's economic policy.

There may never be enough popcorn.

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tom-watson-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-momentum-secret-plan-hard-left-deputy-leader-a7638806.html ]Tom Watson just pulled the pin out of the hand grenade [/url]

Let battle commence. At least the phoney war can make way for the real thing now. Hopefully this will lead to the inevitable split. Corbyn, the grizzled old lefties, and 6th formers going one way, the grown ups the other

Statement of the Obvious really Binners. As I have posted before I rate Tom Watson very highly.

The PLP no inatuoms where meant to ensure leadership candidates where capable of leading the party in Parliament and forming policy that was electable at a GE. Corbyn was nominated by many MPs who knew he was neither of those things.

Momentum has always been about entryism.

Alex I fear you are dangerously optimistic, Labour is closer to becoming as ineffective electorally as Scottish Labour than it is to forming even a coalition Government. As parties shrink in terms of MPs they lose funding (wages, short money etc) and also people need work and the best MPs/ministers just get other jobs. Look at the Lib Dems they get less questions at weekly PMQ's than do the SNP

Arrgghhh

I knew I shouldn't have reopened this thread.

Corbyn is not hard left by any rational assessement.

Watson is a dinosaur that is in the wrong party and has not a clue - he is the problem not corbyn. All he keeps on doing with statements like that is giving the tory press ammo

The problem remains the rebels in the labour party not corbyn. All they have done is give the right wing press ammo

a split may well come - and watch all the right winger vanis from parliamentas no one wants tory lite

It is a bit [i]like rain on your wedding day or a free ride when you've already paid[/i] that Tom Watson is the last remaining non-nutter available to stand up against [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10480602/The-Falkirk-scandal-15-facts-you-need-to-know.html ]secret plots with Unite[/url]

All they have done is give the right wing press ammo

Have you read the Nick Cohen article Uncle Jezza? As he points out, the Tory press don't bother with Corbyn at all. Like Theresa, the rest of the Tory party, and everyone who's reached political puberty, they ignore him. He's an irrelevance who gets zero press coverage. Come an election, they'd savage him. Right now all they have to do is keep feeding him more rope.

It tells you everything you need to know that Momentum/Unite want to change the leadership election rules so that you only need 5% support within the parliamentary party to get on the ballot. It presently stands at a whopping great 15%. Yet they know full well that they haven't got a cat in hells chance of reaching that figure, because they're all batshit mental, and politically clueless! The electorate knows this. So do Labour MP's.

That's ambition for you eh? Securing 5% support within the party you allegedly lead? It seems that they seem to be heading to the same percentage support within the electorate as a whole.

Still big in the 6th form though, eh? And that's all that matters...

[img] [/img]

Not sure Trump is right wing either.