Forum menu
Baroness Shami having gone Full Politician (Must not answer question. Must not answer question)
Just the other day you were criticising Corbyn for having answered a question instead of dodging. Hypocrite.
The press hate him its a disgrace the way he is portrayed
Chap' s a pillock.
My favourite graphic, get used to it as I'll be posting it everytime people mention income inequality
What's scary is that, if you are to be believed (hahahaha!!) you are in a position of making decisions on the basis of analysing information. And yet you show almost no ability to do that. For example, your "favourite graphic" does not demonstrate what you imagine it demonstrates. You need to look deeper, e.g.
[img] 
?itok=KvG8N98w[/img]
Now - do you remember something that happened in 2008 that might have affected very rich peoples' incomes?
So, Diane persuaded Jezza to change position, did she?
🙂
🙂
Buggar wish I'd thought of that double entendre. Damn it. Damn it. Did think of another though.
DrJ well call me stupid but your graph shows income inequality has fallen, err wasn't that my point. Yup many finance jobs have gone and many (esp in banks) are paying 20-30% of what they where before. That's reducing inequality. The biggest driver in wealth (vs income) inequality is house prices in the South East esp London. As I posted before my daughter rented a room from a lovely old couple, retired solicitors (relatively modest jobs) and grand parents of her good friend who'd bought a house near Hampstead Heath in the 1960's now worth £4m. Is that "disgusting inequality" ?
Corbyn is a perfect example, London property plus a £1.6m pension as a result of his Westminster based job.
DrJ well call me stupid but your graph shows income inequality has fallen, err wasn't that my point.
Oh yes. The financial crisis was cunningly engineered by Cameron as a means to reduce inequality. Suddenly it all makes sense.
We didn't claim the Tories had been solely responsible for reducing it did we ? They've done their bit and most certainly are not guilty of Corbyn's charge of "creating disgusting levels of inequality in this country" - the problem is he is an old time campaigner who's record and brain are well and truely stuck in the anti-Thatcher era
That's our point. Factually income inequality has not risen under the Tories. Labour will rant on about wealth inequality instead. That's due to South East house prices which in turn is due to the success of London based aervices (eg financial, advertising, consulting) jobs whuch are available to all inc my colleagues from Wales, Scotland, Ireland and the North of England for example
Dr, careful, of the two slopes yours is the slippier!
Enlighten us on your thoughts TMH ? DrJ's slope is vertical
The Tories recent tax policies have helped too. The more they raise the tax free allowance (worth nothing to those on £125k) and cut pension tax relief and pot sizes and raise the minimum wage the more it helps reduce the gap
We didn't claim the Tories had been solely responsible for reducing it did we ?
No. But your favourite graphic shows the beginnings of PM terms, and not the more significant event which was the financial crisis. So you changed tactic by lying by omission this time around. Not sure if that counts as progress, tbh.
Dr, careful, of the two slopes yours is the slippier!
The cracked pitcher goes farthest to the well!
The tagging on the graphic is a direct responce by the BBC to the Labour charge that income inequality had got worse under the Tories. I am just using it for the same purpose.
is that the same BBC you're always claiming is biased against the Tories?
The tagging on the graphic is a direct response by the BBC to the Labour charge that income inequality had got worse under the Tories. I am just using it for the same purpose.
Don't forget that the BBC also stated that the numbers for the upper income levels couldn't be relied upon. (Those asked either misrepresent their income or don't respond). Lies, damned lies and statistics springs to mind.
I helpfully quoted the relevant section and gave a source a page back.
Jambas, the facts speak for themselves. The narrative on both income and wealthy inequality is flawed. By the looks of things, Dr is letting the desire to argue with you cloud his judgement here. He is not alone, as you mention the subject of this thread makes the same mistake.
Sandwich a perfect example then of why we should have real figures from the Government. I went back 10 pages and could not find your link btw
I am OK with Labour campaigning on income inequality but they should not make these wild and false claims about the Tories. Improve inequality by raising the tax free allowance and/or the minimum wage - do it faster than the Tories are doing. Corbyn's rhetoric is all about avarice and taking money away from those who in his view are undeserving. Plus some good old Marxist ranting.
[url= https://order-order.com/2017/01/12/corbyn-relaunch-latest-labour-lose-sunderland-stronghold-libdems/ ]Onwards to victory comrades, just not our victory[/url]
A swing of 40% to the Lib Dems in Sunderland last night. There was a time, a couple of years ago, that you could pin a red rosette to a turd and it would get elected in Sunderland - now they are getting 25% of the vote.
Expect emergency jam making from team Jezza today.
😀
A good article in yesterday's guardian by that renowned right winger [url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/11/labour-jeremy-corbyn-reboot-shows-why-he-has-to-go-populism ]Suzanne Moore[/url], pointing out that clinging on as 'leader', at all costs, while the Labour Party's polling remains in complete free fall is just selfish egomania!
An interesting article, but doesn't populism require a certain amount of popularity ?
This is painful to watch. Labour now dwells in a kind of limbo. Nothing can move forward until he goes, and he will only go in an electoral wipe out. This is the ultimate selfishness from someone who we are told by his groupies is some kind of saint.
Yep. The only problem that I see with this is that the conservatives need a better opposition to bring out the best in them. At the moment they are like Man U standing on the pitch watching the the opposing pub team stand around trying to lick their own elbows - they don't need to try and at some point they might just not bother trying anymore. A good government requires a good opposition to hold them to account and ask difficult questions.
Unfortunately, you can see whats going to happen next. Labour will be reduced to third or fourth place in the Copeland by-election, a seat that they've held since the dawn of time. As a reaction to this, Corbyn and his tiny circle of supporters within the parliamentary party will keep digging, and retreat yet further into their irrelevant, clueless lefty bunker.
It does not say to the Labour MP's that not supporting your leader is what is the cause of this and it encourages them to ognore the party and to continue to let it be in free fall because they oppoe the membershipclinging on as 'leader', at all costs, while the Labour Party's polling remains in complete free fall is just selfish egomania!
It such a shame the membership support him and the PLP think they can ignore them and they are what really matters. They do there best to ruin the party and then blame him for its a reaction to this, Corbyn and his tiny circle of supporters within the parliamentary party
Has militant done this to Blair i can only imagine the reaction
he wont the election twice support him or join another party but dont constantly undermine him and then blame him for the dire electoral consequences of a divided party.
Morning Comrade. We've missed you......
[img] 
[/img]
😆
So... seriously mate... your opinions on the 're-brand'? A triumph? A clear message those pesky traitors/blairites/closet tories should get behind, and sell to voters on the doorstep?
And how do you think that Labour is going to do in the upcoming Copeland by-election? Think Jeremy's message is going to play well in a working class constituency where the major employers are the nuclear industry?
no I think the party is screwed but my point remains that the PLP are trying to ignore the party[ and now the leader essentially] and the ones doing the most damage to the party whilst syaing its all his fault
You cannot ignore the party memberships wishes - its a democracy and you list so suck it up and do your best rather than destroy the party to prove you were right- whilst blaming him for this.
There are no winners here but what the PLP is doing ensures disaster and compromise seems somewhat unlikely
as I said in the vote i dont much rate corbyn but i despise the way the PLP think they can overrule the party.
I am sure loyal labour supporters like yourself have done all you can to make sure we lose there so you can blame corbyn for it- tirelessly working to ensure defeat rather than victory but its all his fault eh
I imagine you will successfully shoot the party in the foot and not take responsibility for it
as i said no winners here except Tories
footonthemountains - Member
The press hate him its a disgrace the way he is portrayed
As in... Jeremy says some things that are stupid and is reported as saying some things that are stupid?
I suppose that boils down to what you mean when you refer to 'The Party'? Those who you maintain are apparently being ignored? You seem to think that these are lifelong labour members with firmly held beliefs, who have been out there campaigning for a labour victory?
With the greatest of respect fella, this is a hopelessly naive point of view. This "Party' you so hopelessly romanticise, who's views must be honoured above all else are in fact....
[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8115/28559970906_2f1bfb64f3_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8115/28559970906_2f1bfb64f3_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/KvKjku ]Ernie-iphone[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/14162682@N00/ ]bin lid[/url], on Flickr
Thats why the PLP has just given up, and is just keeping quiet. Because they know that theres nothing they can do. As the party has been successfully colonised, and this will only change once they've ushered in electoral armageddon, and maybe not even then. Eds gift of a new internal party democracy has been weaponised by the hard left, and some naive idiots, and turned against the party itself. Thats all thats happened. Not some sudden thirst for lefty nonsense in the general population. As labours present polling clearly demonstrates.
I have quite a bit to do with the local Labour Party councillors (I design their comms stuff for them) and they all tell me the same thing. These influx of 'members' have never been seen. They don't go to meetings. They don't campaign. they're not active in any way. All they've done is join, then voted for Jeremy. Thats it. Full stop. End of story.
If you believe anything different, then I say that thats purely because you'd like to believe that. The reality is quite different.
Junkyard the problem is Corbyn undermines his own Shadow Cabinet, this week it was reported that the Shadow defence secretary visited troops abroad in eastern Europe and gave them his support, only for Corbyn to come out and say they shouldn't be there and he had issues with Nato. If your boss regularly undermines you publicly in any walk of life then things aren't ever going to end well.
Tristram Hunt has resigned (its weird he always struck me as a tory anyway)
by-elections-a-go-go
And another one bites the dust....
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38608825 ]Labour's Tristram Hunt quitting as MP to head V&A Museum[/url]
Somewhat predictably. There's bound to be a mass exodus of MP's who are just tired of banging their head against a brick wall, faced with the impossible task of following a clueless leader into political oblivion
Thats another by-election for Labour to lose, and Theresa increases here majority again. For her, Jeremy truly is the gift that just keeps giving
Another talented front bench Labour MP goes. Being in perpetual opposition is soul destroying as you can achieve nothing. As a back bench MP rather than shadow cabinet member money becomes more of an issue too with many more attractive jobs available outside. With the deselection purge being driven by the leadership it's no surprise people are making the sensible choice of standing down.
Hilary Benn next ? Corbyn has said he will not "interfere" in the deselection campaign.
I agree corbyn is not that talented but its obvious that constant attacks form the "true heart of labour" will do nothing but undermine and hurt the party
Pointless debate none of us are going to change pour opinion and our squabbling serves only to hurt the party and help the tories
How the party gets united I dont know but it is certainly not this way.
Not that talented? This is a man who's grand 'relaunch consisted of him contradicting his own position within the same sentence. Absolutely clueless!
that constant attacks form the "true heart of labour"
who's attacked him? Theres been silence from the labour benches since his re-election. Nobody has said a word. I think that says more about the paranoia of the left than anything else.
Nobody is bothering to attack him, least of all the Tory's. Nobody needs to. He does it to himself.
Labour MP's will just follow their former voters, and just give up on the party.
Hurray for the 'new' left! 🙄
As Binners says the PLP have been keeping quiet. Corbyn managed the relaunch fiasco all by himself. Corbyn is not subject to disloyalty or internal critism at the moment nor are the Tories attacking him.
Stoke on Trent
Leave 69% Remain 31%
2015: Hunt 12k (39%), UKIP 7k (23), Tories 7k (23) - Lib Dems dropped from 2nd in 2005 to 5th.
Shock UKIP win ?
yes binners the silence is in no way a means of attacking him and is not at all designed to undermine him in any way. Furthermore nothing you have ever said could in any way be seen as an attack on him
Which one of us has our head in the sand and is denying reality...i am confused perhaps I need a pastry based sugar rush 😉
Somewhat predictably. There's bound to be a mass exodus of MP's who [s]are just tired of banging their head against a brick wall, faced with the impossible task of following a clueless leader into political oblivion[/s]are too arrogant to accept their members' democratic decisions, and uniting behind their leader
FTFY.
Shock UKIP win ?
If they dont Nuttall will be in trouble, especially as he is anti-NHS
I think I know how this will be fought...
unless ukip can find that bus 😉
By the looks of things, Dr is letting the desire to argue with you cloud his judgement here. He is not alone, as you mention the subject of this thread makes the same mistake.
The facts are what they are. The implication that this measure of income inequality has fallen due to Tory magnanimity and social conscience is incorrect, so jamba's negotiation of the slope resembles mostly Eddy the Eagle 🙂
Eddy the Eagle
British record holder in his day 🙂
No Dr, the arguments that income inequality continues to rise under the Tories is what was being falsified. This is a common narrative, used again by Jezza that is factually incorrect.
I am not one to give too much credit to politicians, but there is also a specific policy response that has helped reduce inequality under the Coalition and Tories, so you are still on a slippery slope. But thats a minor secondary point
Junkyard - lazarus
yes binners the silence is in no way a means of attacking him and is not at all designed to undermine him in any way. Furthermore nothing you have ever said could in any way be seen as an attack on him
As binns has pointed out, the silenced ones don't need to attack Jeremy - he's busy doing that himself...
Respect as leader is earned not given. He can't lead a party, that's clear.
I was amused by this line from the RSPB website about cuckoos
Their recent population decline makes this a Red List species.
Suzanne Moore was quite on point with this para
Talking about pay differentials is good, riffing without facts or figures is not. Likewise, vague expressions of concern about austerity, inequality and neoliberalism are now a political code that results [b]in a vast switch off.[/b] More code was uttered by Corbyn with his talk of “managed migration” and “access” to the single market. Everyone has access; the point is the terms of that access, and managed migration is not going to be one of them. [b]That makes his utterances meaningless.[/b]
JY is right. Corbyn's competence, and that of the team around him is irrelevant. The only relevant thing is that he won a democratic election for the leadership of the party. Twice. The second time he won even after the party executive did their utmost to gerrymander the vote by first arbitrarily changing the rules to exclude existing members who had previously been promised a vote, and then shamelessly excluding thousands of members on extremely spurious grounds (tweets in support of green party policies for instance), or just not sending out ballots (I know of a few people who didn't receive a ballot with no explanation). And yet they still lost!
Corbyn can't quit as he's won two overwhelming mandates from the membership to change the party. Expecting him to quit is naive and frankly insulting to the membership. If the PLP and others want rid of him, the mechanism to do that is clear. Find a candidate who can beat him in an election. Their failure to do that so far says just as much about their own incompetence as Corbyn's.
JY is right. Corbyn's competence, and that of the team around him is irrelevant.
😯
Hail Reg!
[img] 
[/img]
THM you tease still not able to try and defeat my points yourself but happy to still use emojis... shame you dont have the courage of your convictions and try a debate
Respect as leader is earned not given. He can't lead a party, that's clear.
Well its a bit of both isnt it
They never respected him nor the decision and he cannot lead those who dont want to follow him- who could argue against that as it is what the labour party currently is.
As daz notes they cannot beat him, so they dont support him, and we have this impasse where everything is his fault
That is not a very sound logical position. they keep losing voites and not respecting the decision I am not sure this is actually his fault. He is not blameless either as he is not that competent.
they have not been silenced they have chosen to use silence as a method of opposing him/usurping the party decision despite the last attempt at underhand tactics spectacularly backfiring on themthe silenced ones don't need to attack Jeremy - he's busy doing that himself
Bluntly the issue is the party support him and the PLP dont
How we/they resolve this is an interesting discussion but i dont think its by ignoring democracy and siding with those who dont have a party mandate for their view
If you disagree then by all means explain why - this might require a wee bit more than an emoji THM