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Private companies in 2015 provide about 20% of public hospital care and about 30% of public primary care. It is, like the UK, slowly being eroded away.
Are you saying that the welfare state exists, and is sufficiently strong that it blinds the people that use it from seeing the truth that they are exploited?
Yes.
Any system that reduces worker agency by erecting barriers to small and medium businesses, whilst at the same time keeping them just about happy enough not to murder those with ridiculous amounts of capital to invest and thus snowballing wealth is exploitative. You have to give people agency and maximise social mobility, minimize the amount of wealth that one dynasty can build up and simply provide a safety net so people can feel secure enough to innovate.
With the ridiculous amounts of wealth and political power the Wallenberg family hold in Sweden, it really is little better than the UK. But the current welfare system allows them to pretend that they are.
I'd just like to verify that DazH is actually worse than Hitler
Underneath that vegan, tree-hugging exterior beats the heart of a tyrant
You're fooling nobody Daz 😛
Willard, here's a good takedown of the Swedish model - it was originally an economist article but that is behind a paywall.
https://globalknock.com/a-nordic-pyramid/
Credit Suisse, in its annual report on global wealth in October, pointed to findings that the richest 1% of Swedish households control 24% of the population’s total wealth, making it only a bit less unequal than India (25.7%). In contrast, Spain’s 1% control 16.5% of the wealth, and Japan’s only 4.3%. As in many countries, family-controlled businesses are the norm in Sweden. But as Randall Morck of the University of Alberta in Canada has noted, Sweden is an extreme case among rich countries in that one particular family, the Wallenbergs, holds such sway in business.
Discuss their set-up with the Wallenbergs and they say “Anglo-Saxons”, schooled in British and American ideas that companies are best owned by masses of small investors (or pension funds), are wilfully blind to the benefits of family-dominated firms.
“The majority of the really successful, long-lasting families are, like the Wallenbergs, convivial, modest, see the hard work needed and do it quietly,” says a close observer. If they were a bunch of work-shy show-offs, Swedes would surely have noticed the inequality by now.
😀
At the risk of sounding more of a radical than Daz - **** them.
Also, my apologies DazH - I took that too far - you are not literally worse than Hitler.
I'm having a sense of humour breakdown with the absolute bunch of ****s running this country or pretending to be the opposition - and the public who are either apathetic or keen to lap up the bullshit soundbites.
That is on me, not you. We're all shades of decent lefty, centrist or one nation tories on here - apart from the odd troll - there is more common ground between us than people think.
With the ridiculous amounts of wealth and political power the Wallenberg family hold in Sweden, it really is little better than the UK. But the current welfare system allows them to pretend that they are.
Just read up a bit about them on Wikipedia (I know, not to be trusted) and their website ( https://www.wallenberg.com/en/family). The latter may be publicity and I can understand that they would want to keep their prime position within our economy, but their stated mission seems to be putting Sweden and its interests at the heart of a modern world rather than purely themselves. Their habit of not being at the forefront of publicity is refreshingly Swedish in that respect.
In that respect, they appear to be the opposite of Trump and the capitalists currently trashing the UK. I also see that one of their predecessors saved a few thousand people from concentration camps whilst working as a diplomat in Hungary. A shame he was likely killed by the Russians in '47.
I should read more about this family.
Anyway, back to Magic Grandad and his continuing determination to grant Boris Johnson a whopping commons majority, a good article in yesterdays Guardian which just sums up the abject laziness and complacency of the labour leadership as they continue to meander along on their rudderless path
Labour risks total wipeout if it fails to take Boris Johnson seriously
All last week, while Johnson was being chauffeured to the palace, making his victory speeches and assembling his first XI, Jeremy Corbyn held not a single meeting with his own politicians on the new prime minister and how Labour would fight him. Oh, it had come up at shadow cabinet, I was told, but “towards the end, and the discussion didn’t really go anywhere”. No major strategy meeting is planned.
“It’s as if nothing has changed – but everything has changed,” said one senior frontbencher, after surveying the Sunday front pages plastered with Labour’s biggest political threat in years. A Corbyn loyalist, he despairingly described a party already packing up for the holidays even as Johnson prepared for an autumn election.
Hope we're all braced for another 5 years of Tory misrule? Christ only knows what state the country will be in by then
Still... plenty of protest marches togo on and petitions to sign, eh? So its not all bad
I hate Trump.
But the Wallenbergs are another brand of nepotism/dynastical governance - like Trump, like the Royal family etc etc. They just knew how to do "Sweden First" and "Make Sweden Great Again" a few hundred years before Trump worked it out. They do it with more subtlety and with panache - without the overt racism, but it's still the same thing - keep the proles just distracted enough not to question massive inherited centralised wealth.
Dynasties - they are all ****ing corrupt and anti-meritocratic to the core, the only difference between say ****ing Imelda Marcos and the Wallenbergs is their ability to obfuscate it and proactively control and manage perception of corruption. The Marcos family are amateurs at this, whilst the latter is not.
Except that they appear to be doing it by investing in things wisely*, running businesses well* and remaining low key and competent*.
I agree that the imbalance of wealth is potentially concerning, but the trust/company they use does at least appear to be trying to be honest* and not stoking racial division and hate*.
*unlike Trump.
Again, Trumps issue compared to the Wallenberg's is of image management - he's actually been mildly successful with his "America first" policy - Boris will be as well when he gets round to throwing loads of money at UK infrastructure. Keynesian economics works pretty well as a band aid during rough times.
Neither will solve long term macroeconomic issues, a lack of meritocracy or help give people a sense of agency over their own lives.
Trump is the sad symptom of a country that lost faith in itself, in the meritocratic American dream (even if it was an illusion), whereby anyone could make it - no matter whether you came from an elite background or not.
The thing to remember about Sweden is it has a smaller and more politically engaged electorate. The lack of FPTP voting means that there are no wasted votes.
If the Wallenbergs started trying to act like Trump or Johnson or acted in a way the electorate took exception they could quickly find themselves dealing with ruling parties who were hell bent on breaking up their empire.
Because of a small population and a fair electoral system they are able to carry on unmolested by obeying Wheaton's rule.
Labour risks total wipeout if it fails to take Boris Johnson seriously
Don't disagrree with much in that article. What I don't really understand though is why commentators such as Chakraborty et al think going full-on remain is all that is required. If the last couple of years have shown anything it's that pretending to be a moderate party doing 'sensible' things like seeking consensus on brexit just isn't working in this world of populist extremes. The solution is to go full on the other way. Cancel brexit, a green economic revolution, a 4 day week, universal basic income, tax wealth not income, windfall taxes on all monopoly gained corporate profits, massive subsidisation of public transport to cut fares in half, and free internet for everyone. Johnson has already shown the magic money tree exists to fund his fantasy brexit, labour should be turning that around and using it to fund things that will directly benefit the whole population.
is all that is required
Literally no one thinks this.
Literally no one thinks this.
Well if not, it's all I ever hear or read when anyone comments on labour polilcy. Cancelling/resisting brexit on it's own will not win the next election. Labour should be harnessing the revolutionary mood in the country (never thought I'd ever say that!) to do some properly radical stuff. Christ, I even saw something this morning about Boris wanting to legalise cannabis. Everything really has gone mad. If labour don't capitalise on this unprecedented opportunity to throw out the old rules that will be their true failure.
Labour should be harnessing the revolutionary mood in the country (never thought I’d ever say that!)
You must be in an extremest echo chamber. There is no revolutionary mood.
There is no revolutionary mood.
No? Half the country and the vast majority of the governing party and the PM himself want to crash the economy and cause a depression, the other half want to throw out the basic principle of democracy. If that's not a revolutionary mood I don't know what is.
If that’s not a revolutionary mood I don’t know what is.
You might want to have a look at revolutions actually look like. Hint... it's obviously not what you think it is.
You're just being pedantic. Considering our long boring history of stable government, respect for the rule of law, and economic conservatism, this is about as revolutionary as this country is ever going to get. GIven that the boring middle of the road option promoted by May has being roundly rejected by both voters and parliament, we seem to be left with opting for one of two extremes. In that case the labour party should get with the programme and start digging out those crazy policies like UBI and a 4 day week which they previously never imagined would be possible.
With Corbyn, Abbot and McDonnell in charge of the revolution you should be more sensible in your use of language. With Venezuela as their economic model, idolisation of Mao and nazi ideology overlap, when you say revolution nobody is going to think democratic changes are afoot.
You may not have noticed, but we're already slap bang in the middle of the revolution. Its just the opposite of the one expected. Its a far right coup that will tear up the post-war settlement and completely re-shape our society in an uber-neoliberal fashion to suit the rich and shaft the poor, turbo-charging greed and inequality
While this has all been taking place, the ones who like to cast themselves as revolutionaries, mainly through the type of hat they wear, have been sat impotently with their thumbs up their arses.
It turns out that real revolutionaries don't carry little red books , look like Lenin and bang on about capturing the means of production, they actually look like this...
You may not have noticed, but we’re already slap bang in the middle of the revolution.
Not according to 5thelefant.
I agree BTW. The neoliberal nutters are winning. Where we probably differ though is that the last two years have proven that middle of the road politics based on consensus and compromise have failed to stop them otherwise we'd now be out of Europe with a deal. If that's true the only option left is to throw the populist leftwing book at them. If we can afford to crash the economy and pay for it's preparation, we can afford to do some of the stuff that for decades we've been told are unaffordable.
With Venezuela as their economic model
Seems to me the people pursuing a venezualan crash the economy strategy are not the labout party.
Oh god. Something unbelievable has happened. I think I agree with you Daz
Seeing as Boris is now promising billions here, there and everywhere, spending like a pissed sailer on shore leave, he can't very well criticise the opposition for doing the same.
The Labour party should pension off grandad to the allotment ASAP, get a leader in who the public regard as credible, then announce a huge infrastructure investment programme, contrasting that with Johnsons tax cuts for the rich
I am completely certain that what they will actually do instead is.....
Absolutely nothing!
Same as they've done for the last 3 years
Dazh’s pivot sounds exactly like the one Owen Jones has just made… and to a large degree I agree with them both. Stop Brexit and propose proper reforms.
Now, Labour needs a leader who is willing, and is able, to sell that.
Now, Labour needs a leader who is willing, and is able, to sell that.
That's not going to be Yvette Cooper though is it? If Corbyn does fall, the usual suspects (Liz Kendall probably) will then see that as reason to return to the tired policies of new labour, when in reality they need someone willing to go beyond the meek 1970s tax and spend Bennism and propose something truly radical. McDonnell is the only high profile labour MP who's anywhere near that. As I've often said, if Corbyn is to be criticised for anything, it's not being radical or ambitious enough.
Another poll shows labour falling & Johnson rising
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1156908313872949250?s=19
Interesting to see what this might mean for by election today.
I reckon it'll be the same as the local and EU elections. Labour and the Tories are both going to get their arses handed to them.
Just had a look at the odds at the bookies
Lib Dems 1.07/1
Tories 6/1
Brexit 51/1
Labour 101/1
Looks like thats a nailed on Lib Dem win.So thats Borises majority reduced to one, and another ringing endorsement of Corbynism
LibDems should win that seat, because the Tory candidate is so damn awful… but in other seats, in a general election, Johnson looks to be on course to unite the Conservative and Brexit Party vote and win big.
So, he has a plan.
We might hate it, but it may work well.
What is Corbyn’s plan to fight back?
Think it’ll be LibDem for me, if nothing changes between now and the general election.
Corbyn could get me voting Labour again, even with him as leader, but I’m not sure he even cares.
As for other voters, I think it’s too late for him to win enough back. In fact, I suspect many more will turn away from Labour before he is gone.
Half the country and the vast majority of the governing party and the PM himself want to crash the economy and cause a depression,
Half the country have no idea of what will happen and genuinely believe that without Evil Johnny Foreigner from the EU getting in the way of Fantastic Mr Britain, life will be just dandy thanks to free stuff being dished out like sweets.
I give you Veronica from Brecon, 65:
“I just want Brexit done,” she said. “The costs [of no deal] can’t be any worse than what they are at the moment. We just need our independence, we need to make our own laws. It’s been going on too long and we need to get it over with. Then we can use the money on other stuff like local transport infrastructure – the train in Brecon went years ago.”
Yes, that's right. Vote Brexit and get your train back. And Hitler is alive and well and runs the EU, the evil bugger.
And this in a farming region. The same farming industry that is going to be subsidised after Brexit. You know, the Brexit that makes everything better, so why does it need subsidies to be given out?
We can't argue with that kind of stupid.
So I think daz & binners are right. Any pro Remain party has to start promising European Unicorns, now, lots of them, and fast.
“I just want Brexit done,” she said. “The costs [of no deal] can’t be any worse than what they are at the moment. We just need our independence, we need to make our own laws. It’s been going on too long and we need to get it over with. Then we can use the money on other stuff like local transport infrastructure – the train in Brecon went years ago.”
where's the rascism in that statement ? There isn't any, after Brexit immigration from all countries will be treated the same so how is that more rascist than now, where we trat Europeans as if they are more desirable than anyone else ?
We can’t argue with that kind of stupid.
you guys display similar levels of stupid to the leavers you despise...
Treating one group of “foreigners” with fresh contempt is not the same as opening your arms up to all of them. And you know it.
Corbyn not defending FoM was his low point.
So I think daz & binners are right.
This place has changed.
Anyway, seeing as Boris has now ushered in the new era of fantasy money-no-object politics, the labour party can now fill it's boots. But with what? I'll start:
Universal free public transport.
Universal free public transport.
Free?
Free?
Yup. On the proviso that it's non-fossil fuel powered of course. It would provide a massive economic boost not only through improved mobility but also through the construction of the extra infrastructure that would be required, massively reduce car use and all the detrimental effects that result from our car based economy, and also provide a huge practical benefit to everyone resulting in greater quality of life.
So, zero cost then! Cool bananas!
Yay! More free* stuff!
*Free stuff is not actually free, it has to be paid for, but you knew that.,
That's the problem with populism CFH, populists on the right feed populists on the left and vice versa.
So you eventually end up with both sides trying to out compete each other on ridiculousness. We will have the death penalty back soon after Brexit and the only difference between the two sides will be who they should string up from trees and what length of rope to use.
Free shit, wars and public executions! WOOOOOOOO! Give them bread and circuses!
Hmm… free at the point of use (which no one pretends means it doesn’t require money to run) public transport would make car use look very, very expensive. Seems the only way to rebalance, fast, away from the car. I’m in! Phase it in over 20 years? It’s an idea. Bring back the fuel duty escalator first.
Anyway… we can play about with major public good high expenditure reform… let’s stop Brexit and kick out Johnson first though, yeah? That requires a different leader of the Labour Party, and in 2019 everyone knows it. Unless they’re ignoring his performance and direction since 2017.
You know, the Brexit that makes everything better, so why does it need subsidies to be given out?
You do know they receive subsidies now? Brexit or not farming practices such as hill sheep farming couldn't exist without subsidy. It also happens to be an ecologically damaging farming practice, the wool is worth less than the cost of shearing and the whole industry is more about management of rural culture than anything else.
Down with rural culture! Subsidies for fossil fuels we’ll keep, but sod those hill farmers… why should we bother producing any of own food if others can do it cheaper? Food security?! Who needs that?!? Food miles, what are they?
NZ do it without subsidies. Also subsidising "farmable" land is stupid, giving money to already rich landowners for there ****ing grouse shooting land is stupid.
Yes but giving subsidies (also know as "I can't believe it's not welfare") to people wearing wellies that crash around the countryside in battered old landies is good, giving subsidies (welfare) to working class or brown people is bad and anti-capitalist.
Says who?
It’s about to be made plainly clear that the people who don’t give a shit about helping the low paid are the same people that don’t give a shit about hill farmers, or our food security. Or about any of us, and what we get to eat. And Brexit has put them in charge. We need them to be opposed, for all of us.
And it's not all grouse shooting... Read Bio Waste Spreader in Private Eye to see how badly farming as a sector is in trouble with the current system. Smaller farms are generally in big trouble.
Jezz we can poll 5 times higher than the other loony party:
Given the circumstances it was unforgivable that the Conservatives put up a candidate that was convicted of expenses fraud and very rightly recalled by the voters. I have to wonder if that was a local cock-up or wheher May allowed it as an act of vandalism.
You do know they receive subsidies now?
Did I really need to spell out that I was aware it was a special, only because of Brexit, new subsidy? Despite the contradiction in "Brexit making everything great again" and "farmers needing more subsidies to stay standing still"?
where’s the rascism in that statement ?
Did I really need to spell out that the quote was to highlight the "costs of no deal" being "can’t be any worse than what they are at the moment."? Despite the independent predictions from across the board predicting things will very much be quite a bit worse?
it was unforgivable that the Conservatives put up a candidate that was convicted of expenses fraud and very rightly recalled by the voters
Actually if you add back in the bxp votes Davies increased his vote share & we know that bxp voters have no problems voting for expenses fraudsters (farage had to pay back essay more)
Davies was also very popular locally among Tories (local party apparently furious Johnson didn't help them out more - swing voter interviewed said he waited in rain for Johnson but no show so he voted bxp!)
Parachuting in a different candidate against wishes of local party would've been a big mistake.
Big sheep farming area too just as it was revealed that Johnson's hard Brexit means government will have to slaughter 1000s of lambs & compensate farmers if they can't sell to EU
Inevitable consequences of a Tory Brexit biting them
wheher May allowed it as an act of vandalism.
Blaming May again just looks ever more desperate
On a side note did anyone watch Hardtalk interview with Jack Straw this week? It was primarily focussed on the current Iran issue but included a fairly damning assessment of Corbyn and Labours chances of re-election.
I was never a particular fan of Straw but it was interesting to compare him to current MPs Who seem utterly rag tag and amateur in comparison.
just as we've a govt of tory hard right barrel scrapings, lab front bench has been put together to minimise numbers of folk who've actually run anything much when in govt. So I guess there is a bit of following the leader there at least.
The BBC have been trying to get a comment from Corbyns office about last nights disastrous by-election results. Nobody was available.
Apparently theres a note on the press office door saying 'At the allotment. Back in September'
At the allotment
yawn
#wheresjeremy? Finger on the pulse about the problems facing the country, the day after Labour was wiped out in a by-election...
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1157243946629771265?s=21
Pass me that placard, comrade. I feel a protest coming on. You get the petition going...
Labour: "One thing is clear - voters have rejected Boris Johnson and his divisive, out-of-touch UK Tory government."
The voters have rejected the conservatives by giving them 39% of the votes, compated to 5.3% for The Bunker Soldiers.
https://twitter.com/Maomentum_/status/1156842979706966017?s=19
He does hang out with some 'interesting' folk, does Saint Jez. Very interesting.
Insert gif of jeremy Cornyn strutting into a wrestling arena or something
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1157392760112123905
It’s about to be made plainly clear that the people who don’t give a shit about helping the low paid are the same people that don’t give a shit about hill farmers, or our food security.
Our food security is uncertain anyway and, if we did care, would need massive oversight to make it semi safe with no messing around with the claim farmers are businesses as opposed to state employees.
Actually if you add back in the bxp votes Davies increased his vote share & we know that bxp voters have no problems voting for expenses fraudsters
Probably the best gain was brexit party who got a fairly decent gain from their previous incarnation as UKIP.
Turnout was surprising crap. I am guessing many tory voters decided they couldnt support him and many labour voters decided to abstain.
Doesnt look like Plaid Cymru or Green party alliance made a massive difference.
From a tory perspective I am not sure he was the biggest fraudster ever. Seems more it was the cover up rather than being a dodgy sod.
I am not sure we can learn anything useful here and I doubt the main parties will feel overly threatened.
So far we have had six opinion polls since Boris Johnson became Prime Minister, from Ipsos MORI, Deltapoll, Opinium, ComRes and two from YouGov (one for the Sunday Times, one for the Times). Voting intentions from them all are below.
YouGov (30 Jul) – CON 32%, LAB 22%, LDEM 19%, BRX 13%, GRN 8% (tabs)
Ipsos MORI (30 Jul) – CON 34%, LAB 24%, LDEM 20%, BRX 9%, GRN 6% (tabs)
Deltapoll (27 Jul) – CON 30%, LAB 25%, LDEM 18%, BRX 14%, GRN 4% (tabs)
YouGov (26 Jul) – CON 31%, LAB 21%, LDEM 20%, BRX 13%, GRN 8% (tabs)
Opinium (26 Jul) – CON 30%, LAB 28%, LDEM 16%, BRX 15%, GRN 5% (tabs)
ComRes (25 Jul) – CON 28%, LAB 27%, LDEM 19%, BRX 16%, GRN 4% (tabs)
https://ukpollingreport.co.uk/
None of them tell you much until you take it down to the constituency level though. It all depends on what happens after Boris' no deal attempts fails and how many of that CON vote goes to BRX
Exactly, Brecon showed that Tories are very vulnerable, Johnson bounce looking very soft, especially compared to May, Brown , Major etc.
Edit: cramberrys link says much the same-Johnson looks very precarious, a less polarizing leader would've been the wiser choice, but the Tories are so cowed by farage ....
In spite of all Corbyn could still be the last man standing in the current Mexican standoff!! He's already survived 2 Tory leaders who were consumed by brexit.
In spite of all Corbyn could still be the last man standing in the current Mexican standoff!! He’s already survived 2 Tory leaders who were consumed by brexit.
He could outlast another 7 at this rate. Doesn't count for anything if you're still the leader of the opposition though, does it?
Something he seems quite happy to be. Tweeting from the sidelines about rural bus services and Donald Trump
Actually he's seen out 3 Tory leaders, 4? ukip ones, 3 lib dems, 3? greens
He's a political limpet, but you're right, out of power he can achieve little bit there's definitely more he could be doing. The Tories have been so paralysed by brexit a stronger vision from the opposition genuinely could have helped.forge a way through the mess.
there’s definitely more he could be doing
It's difficult to imagine how he could be doing less. He's all but invisible (unless you're attending a miners gala in Rotherham or a Palestinian fundraiser in Tower Hamlets). If you can't manage to get ahead of these bunch of clowns in the polls, then its time to **** off and make way for someone who can articulate something worth believing in
This country needs some hope. Real hope. Not some mythical post-colonial bullshit, or faux marxism. We deserve a lot better than the idiots at the helm of both main parties
We deserve a lot better than the idiots at the helm of both main parties
Do we? We repeatedly elect governments who promise much then fail to deliver, and then when the game is up they change the faces at the top and the whole cycle starts again. We won't deserve any better until people stop voting against their own interests, stop assuming others are going to sort out our problems for us, and start becoming politically engaged and involved. The solution to shit government is challenge and reform the system, not putting some snake oil personality at the head of it and expecting a different result. Until that happens we deserve all the Mays, Johnsons, Corbyns and Swinsons we get.
Indeed. See also voting for one party on order to keep the other lot out. How do you get the party you want to vote for, to change it's stance? You don't do it by voting for them anyway.
Now, Binners keeps on saying that The Jezziah is too busy on the allotment to focus on the stuff that really matters to the majority of people in his constituency, and also in this country. I think that's ridiculous. I mean, just read this thread and see all the worthy causes and people he gets behind.
https://twitter.com/SirBasilBrush/status/1157537063610269696?s=20
Oh, and he still has time to talk about rural bus routes! What a guy, eh?
Political lube for the centrist dads.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/03/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-remain-boris-johnson-election-victory
Rub gently into the areas of polarisation and you may not get another Tory government.
I started reading… got to the part where it was taking about “all out Remain” and the “Right”, and then uses Stephen Kinnock as an example… who has consistently, since the Referendum, said that we have to Leave, and opposed another Referendum, and opposed Revoke, and still thinks the way ahead is a soft Brexit… and decided the writer is either an utter idiot, or disingenuous, and stopped reading. Then realised who posted the link, and slapped my self in the face for even clicking on the link. I’m the idiot.
Yep best not to read anything you don't 100% agree with god knows what'll happen.
You don’t do it by voting for them anyway.
I'm not talking about voting for a party. That's the problem. If the people really want things to change, they have to do it themselves, or kick up such a fuss that those in power can't ignore them. This does happen every now and again, that's why we have universal suffrage and workers rights, and don't have things like the poll tax. If the people at large think the limit of their political activity should be marking a cross on a bit of paper every few years, then they can't really complain about why nothing ever changes.
Yep best not to read anything you don’t 100% agree with god knows what’ll happen.
I love reading well written pieces arguing any point at all, whether I agree with it or not. If you’re going to argue that the “Right” in Labour are happy to use “full Remain” to undermine Corbyn, don’t pick an MP who has consistently said we must Leave the EU for 3 solid years to make your point. And I’ve found, on average, that Rone’s links tend to go nowhere useful, when there are anything to do with these two topics (EU & Corbyn), sorry.
Just for you… I’ll go and read the whole thing. If it doesn’t get any better… I’ll be slightly miffed…
Same old… “ignore the polling now, look how many % he added during the 2017 campaign” … “ignore the elections since, they tell you nothing” … “I don’t like the idea of a Labour Brexit, but I think it’s a vote winner not a vote loser” … “look how bad the Conservatives have done under Johnson in a by-election where Labour were irrelevant” … utter waste of time reading any of that.
Haha
I read that Johnathan harker piece as it popped up in my newsfeed , from the title I hoped it offered some kind of insight or nuance others had missed, offering a way out of this mess.... Some way labour could block no deal Brexit and win an election outright.
Instead it was just a bit of daydreaming, 'itll probably work out fine coz Corbyn almost won in the last GE'
Then i popped in here to see who posted it as a vindication of the last 3 years of shambles
In the same way that a vote for Brexit has now become a vote for no deal, I note how thinking Corbyn isn’t worthy of your vote now marks you out as a Tory.
Proper grown up thinking, right there
The sixth formers need to face up to the fact that the Lib Dem’s, Green Party and SNP are presently looking a lot more like the official opposition to this madness than a disgustingly, unforgivably lazy and complacent Labour Party
They’ve taken their voters for granted for so long, they seem to think we owe them our vote because... Tory’s
Well **** off grandad! We don’t!
I read that at the weekend. You really couldn't make it up.
Theres one particular gem in there that just sums up the whole insular naval-gazing Momentum/Corbynite 'project' perfectly:
Momentum’s national coordinator, Laura Parker, has argued the only chance Labour will have to defeat the Conservatives is with “a new generation of young, BAME, working-class leaders who will take on the political establishment and provide a genuine alternative”.
However, the group’s mass campaign on the issue has also sparked some member mix-ups. “Some members are demanding them in seats where they don’t even have Labour MPs and have to be reminded that first they need to help elect a Labour MP and then they can worry about deselecting them,” one party source said.
Genius! Deselecting MPs before they've even been elected. 😀
This sprung immediately to mind:
Labour self immolating while the country crashes out of the EU and we likely go through a general election.
Slow. Hand. Clap. Just how much more irrelevant do they want to make themselves?
Probably for the best, on balance. Last thing we want now is their half-hearted support for remain at this stage, splitting the remain vote.
they can’t really complain about why nothing ever changes.
the whole point is lots has changed since tories have been in power, having successfully blamed a global financial crisis on modest public spending in the UK. Local authority budgets which provide services for the poorest have pretty much halved. Beggars are back. Because things happen over years, people tend not to notice.
Is anyone on this thread mounting any kind of defence at all of Corbyn's leadership abilities?
There was a good interview with Alan Johnson in the Guardian at the weekend
He was very complimentary of Corbyns leadership qualities and Labours electoral chances
What did you think of Alastair Campbell’s comments last week that the Labour party is in danger of being destroyed as a “serious political force”?
Yeah, we’re heading for disaster and everybody knows that. The simple problem we’ve got is that Jeremy Corbyn is not a leader. He’s never going to be a leader, never wanted to be a leader, is totally uncomfortable in the role as leader. And on Europe he’s a total disaster. So I think Alastair Campbell’s right.
Who would do a better job as Labour leader?
Practically anyone, actually. Because Jeremy is not just pious and sanctimonious, he’s useless at leading, which is why he has people around him to do his shoelaces up, pull his strings. And we’ve got such good women in particular on our benches, whether it’s Rachel Reeves, Yvette Cooper, Lisa Nandy or Stella Creasy. There’s a whole list of them that would do a much better job.
I read that at the weekend. You really couldn’t make it up.
So you feel that the MPs should be able to take their local party members votes for granted?
So you feel that the MPs should be able to take their local party members votes for granted?
The question is why on earth the Labour party are asking this question & causing further internal chaos just weeks before a probable general election
the timing couldnt be much worse!
So you feel that the MPs should be able to take their local party members votes for granted?
Is that your best endorsement of Corbyn's leadership abilities?
Is that your best endorsement of Corbyn’s leadership abilities?
What has this to do with Corbyn?
Well aside from the armies of centrists would be able to get him deselected and so replace him that way.