Jeremy Corbyn

Highlighting the facts, as opposed to the popular misconceptions wouldn't be construed as an accusation of racism? Why would it be?

Trust me I've done that many times, and as THM says, if you strip away the fiction about immigration using actual facts, all you are left with is pointing out to them that their fears/opinions have no real basis other than the fact that immigrants are foreigners. Whether you use the word or not, you end up with the anti-immigration lot feeling like they're being accused of being racists. So 'engaging with their legitimate concerns' is impossible without giving some ground on the racism issue, which I'm never going to do.

As we saw Brown was attacked for confronting a bigot

what did she [b]say[/b] that made her a bigot?

why was she later invited to the Labour conference?

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/what-happened-when-gillian-duffy-met-900168

is Ed now a bigot by association

or are you just trolling anyone who doesn't share your view from the ivory tower,

You house people where it's cost effective surely ?

the dump asylum seekers into poor communities that don't have the economy, resources or infrastructure to cope or adapt. Excellent

I wonder what the index of multiple deprivation is for where THM lives?

FB above should be FN as in the party

Dazh which is why Xenophobes is a more palatable description than racists IMO

Because thinking that someone is somehow less worthy or deserves different treatment on the basis of their skin colour is ridiculous

However thinking that someone is less worthy on the basis of their country of origin is entirely sensible, since everybody knows that you must hate a Frenchman as you hate the devil!

GD: Look, the three main things that I had drummed in when I was a child was education, health service and looking after people who are vulnerable. There are too many people now who aren’t vulnerable but they can claim and people who are vulnerable can’t get claim.

GB: But they shouldn’t be doing that, there is no life on the dole anymore for people, if you’re unemployed you’ve got to go back to work. At six months…

GD: You can’t say anything about the immigrants because you’re saying you’re, but all these eastern Europeans coming in, where are they flocking from?

GB: A million people come in from Europe, but a million British people have gone into Europe, you do know there’s a lot of British people staying in Europe as well.

Look come back to what your initial principles: helping people - that's what we're in the business of doing.

A decent health service, that's really important, and education. Now these are things that we have tried to do.

We're going to maintain the schools so that people

GD: That was a disaster. Should never have put me with that woman. Whose idea was that?

Unknown male: I don’t know, I didn’t see.

GB: Sue’s, I think. Just ridiculous.

Unknown male: Not sure if they’ll go with that one.

GB: They will go with it.

Unknown male: What did she say?

GB: Everything. She’s just this sort of bigoted woman who said she used to be a Labour voter… Ridiculous.

Breaking this thread into racism = Brexit isn't going to help clarity of what the actual problem is. We voted out of Europe for lots of reasons, immigration was just the icing on the cake closing deal.

Labour lost the plot long before Corbyn came along, in fact a credible argument could be made in his favour until the PLP coup.

Scotland and its referendum was part of labours demise.

Speak to any financially aware type and talk of Brown and competency.

Then remember Miliband actually knifing his brother in the back, these are all anathema to decent fair minded folk why would you continue to have a part in all that.

Then add a heady mix of expense scandal being called bigot, racist and whatever, why would we even consider voting for them?

The Political animal is a busted flush, the sharp suited good looking media darling a la Clegg is gone along with Cameron.

There is a new mood, and it is still very angry. Brexit I fear is just the beginning. You cannot treat a sophisticated population the way it has been treated in recent years for much longer without some measure of upheaval. Greece,Italy, Spain, France and Germany all have growing rumblings from the underclasses, it is going to get worse, much worse before it gets better.

Labour would do well to unify around this guy, he's not my cup of tea, but better to educate involve and reason with him than isolate which hasn't worked for them so far, imv they have no choice and trying to buck Brexit is not the answer either, like it or not the will of the population has been demonstrated trying to fight that is anti democratic, the end.

Labour's policy on immigration for the 2015 general election seemed pretty clear to me but don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant 😉
http://www.labour.org.uk/manifesto/immigration
It was the Tories who offered a referendum on Europe and UKIP who wanted out-not Labour or the Lib dems or the Greens or the SNP or Plaid Cymru.

Then remember Miliband actually knifing his brother in the back

Actually? With an actual knife? Gosh!

well standing for a position where folk elect you and winning is practically the same thing as actually knifing your brother in the back

Brexit I fear is just the beginning. You cannot treat a sophisticated population the way it has been treated in recent years for much longer without some measure of upheaval

And there you go again....

You question immigration? You're a racist.

You question the wisdom of the left? You're not sympathetic to left wing views? It's because you're thick!

Christ on a bendy-bus! They wonder why people don't vote for them!

The corbynites on this thread all exhibit the same attitude. Which is a general attitude we've all come to expect from the left. If only everyone was as enlightened as us then we'd all be living in a socialist utopia comrades.

It's a really appealing electoral pitch

You question immigration? You're a racist.

You question the wisdom of the left? You're not sympathetic to left wing views? It's because you're thick!

[img] [/img]

The corbynites on this thread all exhibit the same attitude. Which is a general attitude we've all come to expect from the left.

Letting your guard slip comrade X

FFS Binners your analysis really is poor and a such a huge collection of straw man nonsense. You really do need to get a grip.

The corbynites on this thread all exhibit the same attitude. Which is a general attitude we've all come to expect from the left. If only everyone was as enlightened as us then we'd all be living in a socialist utopia comrades.

I think racists are stupid and the electorate is not sophisticated

Would you like to convince me either of these or wrong or do you just wish to fly off of a hysterical farcical fictitious flight of fancy?

I rest my case your honour

Jesus Binners I expect this sort of shit from [ some of ] the others but you are above this childish shit. Defeat the points made will you and stop making shit up and then just playing the man not the points.

Best of Luck Daz best of luck

Moving on, in the latest poll out Teresa May is more trusted on the NHS than Jeremy Corbyn.

Yep folks that's how bad its got for labour the Tories are now preferred for running the NHS. 😯 ❗

Cheer up JY. William Rees Mogg is on QT. Every time he opens his mouth labours poll score goes up 3-5% 😉

If William Rees-Mogg is moving his mouth I'd be worried, he's dead 🙂

Now the Jacob Rees Mogg and Jess Phillips Brexit roadtrip was the best part of the Referendum campaign.

Good point Jammers! I meant Lord Snooty. 🙂

A Corbyn supporter on QT has just described Blairs new labour years as 'the worst period in labours history!'

Seriously?

Winning 3 elections? The worst period in their history? Dear god!

I'm having to totally re-evaluate just how mind-blowingly stupid these Momentum people actually are. The concept of parliamentery democracy, and how it works, seems to be a step too far for their somewhat limited comprehension. I'm actually worried that these people are allowed to vote.

A Corbyn supporter on QT has just described Blairs new labour years as 'the worst period in labours history!'

Best of Luck Daz best of luck

Well it's ironic cos I've not had a pointless circular argument like this since I last argued with a socialist worker student. 😉

The thing is amidst all this ranting - almost exclusively from the anti-Corbyn side I might add - there are a huge number of people out there who actually want to change things. What I find most depressing is that after years of being told by the political elite, especially in the labour party, that apathy and disengagement in politics is a bad thing, now that tide is turning they don't want to know about it. Corbyn, for all his many faults, is one of the few politicians out there who's interested in listening to these people. Hardly a surprise is it that they like him?

there are a huge number of people out there who actually want to change things.

What I find most depressing is that after years of being told by the political elite, especially in the labour party, that apathy and disengagement in politics is a bad thing, now that tide is turning they don't want to know about it.

Corbyn, for all his many faults, is one of the few politicians out there who's interested in listening to these people. Hardly a surprise is it that they like him?

Corbyn is the "down with that sort of thing" protestor who lucked upon an opportunity. The real shame is that the desperation to change coupled with high activity entrism means that he is riding a personality cult where he is the only change that is acceptable and dissenters are closed down and sidelined, threatened and pushed out of their own party.

He is in effect figurehead who mumbles through riding on the back of the work of the activists that thrust him forward. The fact they can't even get a shadow cabinet together or oppose even mundane government business shows the gulf between hope and reality

Corbyn, for all his many faults, is one of the few politicians out there who's interested in listening to these people. Hardly a surprise is it that they like him?

I'm sure we'd all like to have our opinions cooed back to us by admiring, nodding drones. The problem with Corbyn is that he's far too fond of this exercise in the Cult of the Personality, and simply refuses to step outside the echo chamber to engage with anyone who's opinions may differ from his own.

You can't win a general election by simply going from one Momentum Rally to another, preaching to the converted. You have to engage with the wider electorate, and convince them to vote for you. But as he repeatedly demonstrates, that is all Jeremy wants to do. Soak up the admiration of the faithful.

Its a cult. Pure and simple. A cult that is about to set about purging the non-believers, and utterly destroying the labour party in the process. Its actually a tragedy

I'm actually worried that these people are allowed to vote.

Could you not have waited a little longer to contradict your previous attack on me ? FACEPALM

What I find most depressing is that after years of being told by the political elite, especially in the labour party, that apathy and disengagement in politics is a bad thing, now that tide is turning they don't want to know about it.

I'm sure we'd all like to have our opinions cooed back to us by admiring, nodding drones. The problem with Corbyn is that he's far too fond of this exercise in the Cult of the Personality, and simply refuses to step outside the echo chamber to engage with anyone who's opinions may differ from his own.

Only this week he has been attempting to get the PLP to engage and offer a clean sweep and suggest elections to the shadow cabinet to engage. They have,largely, refused and will leave positions unfilled - this is helping how exactly? What is noble about that? How many olive branches does he need to offer to them , that they refuse, before you stop the pathetic and erroneous "stalin" comparisons for man whose main fault seems to be winning an election and you struggling to accept the wishes of the party whilst still claiming to represent it despite disagreeing with it. FFS i bet even the DM has a more balanced and nuanced view than you do

You can't win a general election by simply going from one Momentum Rally to another, preaching to the converted.

Its a cult. Pure and simple.

A cult that is about to set about purging the non-believers

Well the Party wants the party to go in a certain direction.Many PLP dont want to be on this journey. WHat do you think should be the outcome as i see only two choices

1. the membership win out and those who disagree leave- you call this a cull due to the cult of personality as you like hyperbole rather than a calm analysis of the facts.
2. The PLP ignore the wishes of the party they represent and the membership gets ignored and he is left as a "Lame duck" leader. He gets the blame for their lack of support and the consequences of this.

Which is the democratic one? Like you would be praising corbyn/momentum/trots if they ignored the Labour party electorate and just said lalalalala no we are right not listening and then engineered it so the leader failed.

This really is Jamby levels of facts and debate- you are much better than this. THINK MAN THINK

Corbyn is that he's far too fond of this exercise in the Cult of the Personality, and simply refuses to step outside the echo chamber to engage with anyone who's opinions may differ from his own.

Well I've said a few times that I'm not particularly fond of the idolisation that is going on, although I do think it's being exaggerated with all the tabloid and media hysteria. But on the point of Corbyn not engaging with people who differ from him, how is he supposed to do that when at the first opportunity, his opponents slander him with some pretty horrific and ridiculous stuff. He's been accused either personally or by association of being a terrorist sympathiser, a racist, a mysoginist, a soviet era trotskyist revolutionary, a thug, a bully, a hitler apologist etc. Would you engage with any of this?

OH FFS Binners you have become utterly unhinged on this issue to the point you are like a deranged drunk at speakers corner spouting gibberish

Thats the nicest thing anyones ever said to me. Its generally the effect I aim for 🙂

Anyways... Don't mention the elephant in the room, whatever you do. The lefty dream team of Jeremy and Comrade Macdonnell and the likelihood of actually winning a general election, or even retaining half the seats they have at present. Likely?

A government in waiting?

[img] [/img]

He's been accused either personally or by association of being a terrorist sympathiser, a racist, a mysoginist, a soviet era trotskyist revolutionary, a thug, a bully, a hitler apologist etc.

the problem there is that at some point during his parliamentary career there is significant evidence that those accusations are all actually true. You can't wave Hamas banners, and indulge anti-semites, while appearing not to be too bothered about vile mysoginistic abuse directed at people who've had the audacity to question you, then complain when people simply point this out. The press aren't making this stuff up. They're simply reporting it.

Macdonell has described himself as a Marxist on many occasions, and now he's moaning about being labelled a Marxist. And its stretching credulity to the limit not to look at him as a thug and a bully. Because thats what he is.

Not exactly a bright pair, are they? People aren't blind. They look at your record and how you conduct yourself, and they draw their own conclusions. Hence their catastrophic poll ratings

Winning 3 elections? The worst period in their history? Dear god!

Indeed, clearly 18 years of opposition before and the 10 years after (going to 15-20 imho) ae better. I do think a material number of Corbyn supporters don't care if they don't win an election, its about the shouty meetings and ultimately their idea of a "revolution" or change via mass action / strike / demonstration.

There is no need for the Tories to attack Labour as its a self destruct excersize even damning their own 13 years in Government as "their worst period".

Guardian piece says there are currenty 60 yes SIXTY unfilled Shadow Cabinet posts. Most of those will stay that way. Shami will get her Shadow Cabinet reward to go with her Peerage as Corbyn puts an unelected person at the forefront of his Government

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/22/labour-mp-prepare-coexist-jeremy-corbyn-leadership-backbench ]Labour MPs to co-exist with Corbyn from the backbenches[/url]

Anyways... Don't mention the elephant in the room, whatever you do. The lefty dream team of Jeremy and Comrade Macdonnell and the likelihood of actually winning a general election, or even retaining half the seats they have at present. Likely?

Labour has not won an election since 2005. Whilst I agree that Corbyn is unlikely to win in 2020, the solution is not to be found in the continuation of failed strategy, embodied by the candidates so soundly thrashed by Corbyn last year.

being a terrorist sympathiser, a racist, a mysoginist, a soviet era trotskyist revolutionary, a thug, a bully, a hitler apologist etc

the problem there is that at some point during his parliamentary career there is significant evidence that those accusations are all actually true.

As i said the DM is more balanced than you and I award you the Jamby ignores facts BS hysteria award on political threads
DRIVEL COMPLETE AND UTTER DRIVEL
Definitely all yours Daz as this is silly

I think most people would agree that the Momentum hysteria is not very clever.

However remember Corbyn didn't make Momentum. Corbyn's a good bloke, not particularly well cut out to be party leader, but that might work in his/our favour, depending on how it's played.

I wish there were more people sitting down and trying to figure out how to get the party working well with Corbyn in charge, rather than shouting and screaming in hyperbolic terms about how awful he is.

In other words - pull your finger out and solve the issues by working together. Screaming and shouting does not help. Which is what Corbyn's been trying to say for ages.

You love me really JY.

Group hug?

😀

You're forgetting Binners, Blair was an electoral disaster - he lost five million votes*

Just like Bradley Wiggins will forever be remembered as not winning the 2013 TDF

* https://yougov.co.uk/news/2012/10/22/labours-lost-votes/

DRIVEL COMPLETE AND UTTER DRIVEL

Quite right, everyone knows it's Ken with the Hitler obsession

there is significant evidence that those accusations are all actually true.

The press aren't making this stuff up. They're simply reporting it.

Well if that's truly the position of anti-Corbyn labour people (I don't believe it is BTW), then quite frankly it's not a leftwing takeover of the labour party people need to be worried about, it's a rightwing, reactionary Dacre/Murdoch takeover which appears to be the problem as you lot seem to have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. I never thought I'd see the day when labour people do the Sun's, and Daily Mail's work for them. It's quite upsetting to be honest.

In other words - pull your finger out and solve the issues by working together. Screaming and shouting does not help. Which is what Corbyn's been trying to say for ages.

My sentiments exactly. There are still some rational people around here.

I wish there were more people sitting down and trying to figure out how to get the party working well with Corbyn in charge, rather than shouting and screaming in hyperbolic terms about how awful he is.

In other words - pull your finger out and solve the issues by working together. Screaming and shouting does not help. Which is what Corbyn's been trying to say for ages

this, in bucketloads

ninfan - Member
You're forgetting Binners, Blair was an electoral disaster - he lost five million votes*

Its not the 5 million voters lost thats the real issue, its the lies, the spin, the wars, the expenses, the scandals, the PFI's , the bedroom tax on private rentals, the poking children up the bum, the whitewashing of any investigation in to poking children up the bum, the not listening to legitimate protest and so forth ad infinum, that has DISENFRANCHISED and DISENGAGED 5 million Plus of the electorate- and i was one of those, up until around 2011 / 2012

I'm clearly no labour supporter, but it's plain to those who allow themselves to see, Corbyn appears to have gelled the disenfranchised and provided them with a voice.

Ignore this and spout "unelectable" at your peril.

He doesnt need to chase the Green vote, The UKIP vote, The Tory vote, the floating vote.

He only needs to get a proportion of the 40 odd% who couldnt be arsed to vote on side.

Remember Conservative only have the mandate of circa 25% of the voting age population, a figure that coincides with people on salaries of £65000 and above who think they rank among the well off. In that figure lie the truly well off, Millionaires and above. So thats 25% voting out of pure self interest.
Theres no one left for Conservative to vote chase but for the odd disgruntled UKIPer

Theres no no left for Conservative to vote chase but for the odd disgruntled UKIPer

Would that be the 4 million votes that UKIP got?

Remember Conservative only have the mandate of circa 25% of the voting age population, a figure that coincides with people on salaries of £65000 and above who think they rank among the well off

How many people in Rossendale and Darwen have that income? How come it returned a conservative MP who was up against the red prince Will Straw and his well funded campaign?

Or are you talking tripe

Ukip being further to the right than the Conservatives, bankrolled by conservative, and staffed by ex conservatives?
Id suggest that barring a few protest votes and out and xenophobes and racists, Ukipers are possibly happy where they are?

Big and daft, that i seem to recall was a protest vote regarding the floods. or do you have a selective memory?

And of course, you will always get a proportion of people outside of a demographic voting for a particular party for particular personal reasons or beliefs.

(edited for clarity)

Ukip being further to the right than the Conservatives, bankrolled by conservative, and staffed by ex conservatives

So red UKIP doesn't exist?

Big and daft, that i seem to recall was a protest vote regarding the floods. or do you have a selective memory?

No, sitting MP returned, flood spend is centralised, no recollection of any stuff in local papers saying vote conservative as they will keep your feet dry

And the boxing day floods were after the GE

So more tripe then

And of course, you will always get a proportion of people outside of a demographic voting for a particular party for particular personal reasons or beliefs.

Ok, it was because the last labour MP milked the expenses system and was ineffective, just like Bury North, what happened to David Chaytor btw?

Of course ex Labour voted Ukip, Labour were unelecatble in 2010/ 2015 Ukip provided a voice for some- Of course i would say it was the wrong voice, but angry people do desperate not very well thought out acts

Ill agree on the milking expenses BTW 😉

Jeremy Corbyn knows that the heartland Labour vote is a dying one, a bit like the readership of the Daily Express. You could argue that those most likely to vote are older people, and that this group will inevitably shrink over the next couple of decades. Of course, increased life expectancy means that a lot of these people will still be voting well into the 2030s.

It's a massive gamble to move your focus to the next generation, the equivalent of going early on a solo attack on a long stage.

So he's not going to be electable in this cycle - you're looking two or three cycles down the track for any impact, with a new crop of candidates and probably a new leader drawn from them. The current PLP is irrelevant to this kind of thinking, and Corbyn/Momentum must be prepared to lose a lot of seats to hopefully win them back and more a long way down the track.

Even then you have to make some massive assumptions about sustaining this perceived increase in political interest from younger pre-voters and voters, and the failure of other parties to do the same kind of thing.

It looks like youre agreeing that people will vote outside of their self interests though, if their local represantive angers them?