Jeremy Corbyn

You've failed to understand democracy

As have you I think. Democracy is not, 'we'll just do whatever we think the majority wants'*, which appears to be the stance of most modern politicians. It should be, 'Here's what we think is right, and we're going to try to persuade a majority of people to agree with us'.

*actually it's more like, 'We'll just pretend to do whatever we think the majority wants'.

It should be, 'Here's what we think is right, and we're going to try to persuade a majority of people to agree with us'.

No, thats Politics

Democracy is, quite specifically, rule by the expressed will of the people - there are a number of ways that can be done, for example by direct or representative democracy, both have their own advantages and disadvantages but the essence remains that the people remain in charge.

Democracy is a huge range of ideas. You should not be arguing about what democracy means, you should be arguing about how democracy should be implemented.

[url= https://medium.com/mosquito-ridge/the-sound-of-blairite-silence-aed2ef726c8a#.qzckkprc3 ]Did we do this first time round?[/url]. I've just come across it now, and it's interesting reading it a month on from the time of writing as most of what he says would happen does indeed seem to be transpiring. Last stand of the blairites?

Something that exposes the level of ignorance in political discussion these days is the use of the word "Marxist" as a criticism.

Those who do this seem to think that what they're saying is "Communist".

Marxism is a form of Economic Philosophy that is adopted by those on the left (beyond Liberals and Social Democrats) because they think it supports their desire for everything to be "equal".

The reason it's irrelevant is because it's a nineteenth century philosophy that seeks to evaluate a nineteenth century economy.

The idea that it can be used to examine modern circumstances is risible at best.

Even though he now says that he didn't say he is a "Marxist" but that he was just using it to argue his case, John O'Donnell still falls into the category of someone trying to win a F1 race with a steam engine.

The idea that it can be used to examine modern circumstances is risible at best.

I suspect the 'is Marxism relevant today' debate is a whole new thread. Without getting into detail, I'd say it's still very relevant, but you need to see past the 19th century stuff and dated language about proletariats, bourgeoise etc.

great British public who were so deluded in the Brexit vote

Pretty obnoxious way to describe people who voted in a democratic election to leave a failed political and economic union. Even the Remainers said the EU was in need of major reform, the Leavers recognised that was never going to happen in fact quite the contrary.

Marxist isn't a criticism from my perspective, what I am doing when I use it is identifying those who support an outdated and long discarded political and economic philosophy. We live in a Capitalist world, that ship has sailed. Trying to unilaterally declare something else might appeal to the neo-hipsters (loved that on the Marr show today 🙂 ) but it cannot possibly work.

[b]Labour: Is the Party Over ?[/b]

Panorama tomorrow. I am with Kinnock, Labour is heading to a place which will not see another Labour government in his lifetime.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07x0bvx ]BBC LInk[/url]

Pretty obnoxious way to describe people who voted in a democratic election

350m a week for the NHS? Seems pretty deluded to me. It's for the EU thread, but it's pretty clear that the brexit vote was won on a campaign based on lies and deceit, so it's a fair comment I think to say the electorate were deluded.

What's your opinion on RBE, Jambalaya?

You've failed to understand democracy.

My post doesn't address democracy so I guess it's you who failed to understand. I simply said that there is a difference between what people vote for and what would objectively be the right choice.

My post doesn't address democracy so I guess it's you who failed to understand. I simply said that there is a difference between what people vote for and what would objectively be the right choice.

What's RBE ?

objectively be the right choice

That's where you are being narrow minded. Leave was an equally objective choice. IMO it was the only objective choice, your opinion was different but you can't accept the alternative viewpoint as legitimate. Time for another #jamba hashtag insult ?

When it comes to opinion, if you're in the minority you're the one who's wrong.

*Unless you're a leftie, scotsnat or a remainer, in which case the moral highround clause applies, allowing you to dismiss the majority as either stupid, Blairite or Tory (or a combination of the three)

Resource based economy

r4 reporting 14 of the mps who resigned from the shadow cabinet would be in it again if Corbyn wins.

Pretty obnoxious way to describe people who voted in a democratic election to leave a failed political and economic union.

Shameful

Resource based economy

Thanks, never heard of it. I will look it up.

Like Marxism unless I could be convinced it would work alongside the capitalist economies in the majority of the rest of the world I'd say "no thanks". Fundamentally people with money, ideas and work ethic are going to be drawn to capitalist economies. If you then have freedom of trade or even trade with tarifs like WTO they are going to setup and run their business abroad and export into the UK.

EDiT: just looked it up, it's looney nonsense with the dial turned to 11. Totally unworkable even bartering is out ofnthe window. Cannot possibly work unless every country in the world adopted it and every rescource ofthe world was equally owned by all citizens of the world. Apologies if it's a concept close to your heart.

Will those same people then piss off out of Britain to the EU?

I like the way the principles used for your arguments vary widely depending on the point you are currently arguing - this to criticise communism - ignore it when defending Brexit.

Indeed we should leave our chagrin for those who BS endlessly about what would happen afterwards and lied to them like you, Boris and basically the entire leave team who were nothing short of serial liars playing the racist card.

Hmm, I'm still waiting for the promised complete collapse of western political society

Or does your castigation of serial lies about what would happen afterwards only apply to the side you didn't support

Diddums.

Ninfan why are you so immature?
Why ignore the point to have a childish dig?

I was very clear in castigating GO and Dave for this approach. By the end the only thing safe was my kids piggy bank and the overstated - but essentially true - economic costs was a right turn off for me never mind undecided.
however the Leave "promises" and claims were just outright lies- obvious ones mind hence why they have all ben parked.

FFS grow up in your debating style will you as its pathetic and actually address the points raised as you are far far better and brighter than this- see you next month 🙄

What

How is it different from:

[i]I like the way the principles used for your arguments vary widely depending on the point you are currently arguing - this to criticise Brexit - ignore it when defending Remain[/i]

?

If you can't see that the remain "promises" and claims were just as much outright lies as the leave ones then you are demented. Yet you continue to single out one side as being uniquely responsible for some form of disingenuous campaign style that both were full of.

And as for the terrible 'lie' (that wasn't) of the 350m 'promise' (that wasn't) that leavers all 'believed' (they didn't) then perhaps you need to point your finger at the treasury for publishing it in the first place?

@ninfan 😀

The lies and scaremongering on the Remain side where off the charts and how can we have a fact based argument when Leave where prevented from having access to the civil service to obtain information ? They even had Barack roll into town and we told him to mind his own business, we understand the UK being in the EU is good for the US and the other poltical organisations like the OECD and the IMF. Its just not good for us.

Jambalaya - it's the classic hypocrisy of the left.

"350 miliion" complete lie, worst thing in the world, burn Boris

"I had to sit on the floor because there were no seats" completely true, how dare anyone question the leader, boycott Branson

I see you're still struggling. When it comes to opinion, if you're in the minority you're the one who's wrong.

Trying to move the goalposts. Who's talking about opinion ?

Resource based economy

Oh yeah of course..... Silly me! 🙄

I agree, RBE are completely unworkable under the current paradigm, but its an interesting concept non the less...

7 or 8 years ago i relentlessly took the piss out of Clive Lord (Greenpeace, Green Party) as he was calling for universal basic income, one of the first times i'd heard of the concept, i could see the merit, but money for nothing? C'mon!
But bit by bit my opinion was swayed, and not only me it would seem, as its been mentioned in mainstream media and a few political personalities, and has been trialed with some successes in some first and third world countries.

My point being, right now, it might sound like quackery and wishful thinking, but will it always be thus, and could some of the less way out concepts be considered for work alongside current econimics?

If you can't see that the remain "promises" and claims were just as much outright lies as the leave ones then you are demented

perhaps you need to point your finger at the treasury for publishing it in the first place?

There was no way to save £350 million NONE as it was not the true cost and it was never going to the NHS.

how can we have a fact based argument when Leave where prevented from having access to the civil service to obtain information ?

it's the classic hypocrisy of the left.

Enjoy your irrational circle jerk lads

Also worth noting ninfan blamed the CS for the figure

Now, you can call it an exaggeration, you can call it a misrepresentation, but what you most definitely cannot call it is an outright lie.

they [u]presented it as[/u] the real cost

See, maybe you were just one of the stupid people Junky?

£350 million pound cost all of it going to the NHS

Where?

Another 'outright lie' that nobody made.

Or are you just exaggerating again? Is that what Jezza was doing on the train then, 'exaggerating for effect'? Is that OK now? All part of 'honest politics'?

Getting your knickers in a twist and we haven't even started the leaving process yet.

When can we expect that to happen? what are the plans? Please don't give us any of your bobbins as you both are very good at that (ninfan jambaliar) if you don't know just say so.

Don't give a toss, as long as we leave

Why should you expect a narrative as to the what, how or when? We're leaving, get used to it.

Yep thought so, pretty much sums the whole thing up.

I gave you my thoughts Pigface many times. They are thoughts and opinions, I know no more what our EU exit will look like in a year or two than I know who will be running the Labour Party.

Personally I would go Article 50 immediately, force the pace. Tailored trade deal with no budget contribution and no freedom of movement - if that's not agreed (vetoed by Eastern Europeans and the Commission who know that's political suicide for them) then no deal and WTO tarifs. We need to focus away from EU ASAP as its going to blow up over Greece / euro and experience a very deep recession, it's a time bomb we need get away from as quickly as possible.

I can see the merit of waiting till after French/German elections in 2017 (May and Sep I think) as we are going to be dealing with different people. Negotiations are a bit different if it's Le Penn and France willbe having their own Referendum on euro membership as a minimum and possibly EU membership. German could well see a significant change especially if Le Penn wins, it will have an impact there for AfD and others.

The Re-moaners critisim that somehow the Government was objliged to present a plan immediately is ridiculous, the Cameron Government only had one plan and that was to win. The Leave campaign was a campaign not a political party fighting an election with a manifesto. It was a single issue Referendum. Remain or Leave

FFS Ninfan even the question says leave presented it as £350 million
Self pwns are the best

Here they are abandoning the claim you termed an outright lie
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/brexit-camp-abandons-350-million-pound-nhs-pledge
Farage saying it was mistake to make it

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/

Would you like some more reality or is that enough for you to ignore?

Are you competing with jamby for the poster who lies about things the most?You are catching up fast to be fair

So were you just one of the stupid people then junky?

considering 86% didn't think it was an accurate figure then you must have been pretty thick to believe it.

If wasn't an outright lie, most people clearly accept it was an exaggeration - but you said that exaggeration to prove a point was OK, so I can't really see your problem.

I ask you again

£350 million pound cost [u]all of it going to the NHS[/u]

Where? Who said this?

Where? Who said this?

[img] [/img]

Let's

Not we will

One is a suggestion, the other a proposal.

Is that too difficult for you? Or were you one of the 14% of thickos too?

So far it seems that the only people who thought the 350m figure was how much we [i]actually[/i] sent to the EU every week rather than an officially published [i]gross[/i] figure of how much we sent to the EU each week (the net figure being only a trifling 175 million pounds a week, mere pocket change) were remainders.

How thick and stupid must they feel now?

Plus - you can't see it in that photo but Bozzer has his fingers crossed so it doesn't count. Ha! Fooled you!!

I know quite a few people who voted Brexit. The NHS £££ thing wasn't a factor in their decision, they'd made their minds up well before any of that.

The interesting thing is STW is providing more Brexit debate than the Labour Party 😯

Of course JC recommended Article 50 be triggered immediately after the Referendum

In Berin's election we have extreme left at 19% and extreme right AfD at 12%, maybe that's the Momentum strategy to polarise the UK further.

One of the question Jambalaya has never answered is how many jobs and livelihoods he thinks its worth wrecking in pursuing this leave farce. I suspect this is all a bit of a game, a joke, to him and his ilk - it's not going to have any impact on you.

My main client base (hill farmers) are looking at 40% tariffs on lamb exports under WTO rules which will finish most of them off - they live quite a hand to mouth existence as it is and cant wait around for years whilst re-negotiations take place.

Isn't the WTO tariff on cars something like 9/10% why would Nissan or Toyota Honda continue to invest here as the point of entry into the EU and pay this extra when they can move production to the EU to avoid this - were already seeing a scaling back of Ford's investment in Bridgend and I can't believe that this farce wasn't at least in their minds eye at the time.

I think the most offensive thing about the brexiters (Jambalya Ninfan)is that they simply think of the Eurpoean project in terms of money when its about so much more than that. If nothing else there has been unprecedented period of peace amongst the member states of the Common Market/EEC/EU since the end of WW2 and on the basis that I have a good smattering of ancestors from both world war buried in various bits of the continent I for one feel that I have some skin in the game that is the EU project - my surviving grandfather who stayed on in Germany post WW2 as part of the allied occupation was firmly of the view that what he had fought for was not only to defeat Nazism but also put an end to the possibility of future conflicts and hence his strong support for the European project and given the shitiness of what he and his generation went through (he was there on the ground and saw some hideous sights) who am I to second guess him.

To remind the brexiteers the objectives of the Union are:

•an area of freedom, security and justice without internal frontiers ;
•an internal market where competition is free and undistorted;
•sustainable development, based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment;
•the promotion of scientific and technological advance;
•the combating of social exclusion and discrimination, and the promotion of social justice and protection, equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection of the rights of the child;
•the promotion of economic, social and territorial cohesion, and solidarity among Member States.

I am not sure what the brexiters can find offensive about that. I find being called a 're-moaner' offensive - it my right to continue to not accept the result of a referendum that was based on lies and to continue to campaign to remain within the EU. Do you know what, if Greece does go pop and has be rebuilt I don't care - where still better off within the EU (and closer within) with the possibility of fixing it than without. We already have zero hours Amazon workers in Swansea sleeping in bus shelters so as to avoid the possibility of missing a shift - no doubt that the free trading world that Ninfan and Jambalaya aspire to post EU but the thought of that as the future is not something that makes me jump for joy.

Nipper to quote Ninfan he couldn't give a toss.

+1

My main client base (hill farmers) are looking at 40% tariffs on lamb exports under WTO rules which will finish most of them off - they live quite a hand to mouth existence as it is and cant wait around for years whilst re-negotiations take place.

UK exports sheep meat 2015 - 79,400 tonnes
UK imports sheep meat 2015 - 92,800 times
UK exports beef 2015 - 100,500 tonnes
UK imports beef 2015 - 268,400 tonnes

Hmm, doesn't read much like an impending disaster for farmers does it Nipper?

Ninfan why do you bother, you don't give a toss.