Bloody fake news.
It was impressively fake news. The way it tricked May and co into having the elections being confident of an absolute landslide.
You have to admit that he's done far better than most people expected. That's undeniable. I'd go so far as to say he's done a pretty decent job overall. He's had a huge mountain to climb after all, in difficult circumstances (re Brexit) and he's climbed it.
They couldn't even beat the worstr PM I can remember with with a giveaway budget.
Two more weeks of being treated fairly by the media and word of mouth spreading, he'd have done it I reckon.
You have to admit that he's done far better than most people expected.
He did better in the elections than expected. I think most commentators thought he'd have preferred the leadership nomination percentage to move from 15% to 5% rather than 10% and he was probably expected to achieve that. ...but most commentators seem to think ten will do work fine and it was politically far nicer to appear to be compromising.
So to my thinking it's game, set and match to Corbyn.
He's also got a lot better at being leader of the oppo I think.
He's also got a lot better at being leader of the oppo I think.
Not sure that matters. Before he changed the nomination rules if Corbyn had been hit by a bus he would have been replaced by a Blair/Milliband type and a corresponding front bench. After he changed the nomination rules he will be replaced by a Corbyn/Abbott/McDonnell type and corresponding front bench.
His achievement and his legacy is that the party has changed direction for good. He could resign tomorrow if he wanted. His job is done.
People who say 'Ahhh the membership could change' are wrong. Who the hell is going to join the Labour party with the aim of moving it back to the centre? They'd just join the liberals or Tories.
It's over, Corbyn has won.
Not sure that matters.
I reckon so. Politics these days is about image.
He's also got a lot better at being leader of the oppo I think.
He definitely seems to have had some good coaching but a major part is the MPs have mostly given up trying to put a knife in his back. Which in itself boosts how he comes across since he isnt constantly being undermined.
It is curious how him and May have pretty much switched positions so quickly.
But at least you're not bitter about itIt's over, Corbyn has won.
It's over, Corbyn has won.
Hmmmm yes how dreamy.. the road to Corbyn's 'pure socialism'.
MPs have mostly given up trying to put a knife in his back
Given up is a weird way to put it. As of September what's the point in unseating Corbyn? He'll jsut be replaced by another Corbyn. They haven't given up, they've lost.
But at least you're not bitter about it
I don't think the demise of Labour is the problem. The problem is the total absence of political talent in the UK at the moment.
Who's gonna take over from May? Where is the next Nick Clegg? Good people avoid politics these days. I blame the media.
Where is the next Nick Clegg?
It turns out that Nick Clegg is much less popular than Jeremy Corbyn. Perhaps he's not as good as you think he is.
Given up is a weird way to put it
Fair enough. Main point though was about how it makes him appear better since every time he speaks he isnt getting half a dozen knives in the back.
The converse is true of May. A major part of her apparent weakness is because her gambit failed and hence she has no control over her own party.
So she says one thing and Boris undermines her within 5 seconds.
Good people avoid politics these days. I blame the media.
I am not so sure but I am willing to be swayed. It is a complex topic in its own right.
I think the professionalisation of politics is a problem. Clegg is a good example as there are reasonable sounding claims his decision to join the Lib dems was more about how he thought he would do in the party as opposed to any firm beliefs (same has been said about Blair). I would say the media doesnt help in that, unlike many professions, they can help ensure a single mistake is game over but then I look at IDS and Fox and think again about the game over bit.
No tory wants the job because they put their careers above all else.Who's gonna take over from May?
A win on the economy ? Now I didn’t get to see pmq’s today will try and catch it later to make my own mind up ... but a win “on the economy” ? Record employment, near record low in unemployment, healthy wage growth at 2.2%. On TMH’s favourite topic productivity we are poor but thats been a problem (especially outside the South East) under Labour, coalition or Tory govt’s
I could see Labour making trouble on inflation (mind the current move in the pound is nothing in comparison to what you’d see under McDonnell who is openly speaking of capital controls FFS !!!!) or Universal Credit Roll out.
It's over, Corbyn has won.
The party membership has won, not Corbyn. The membership voted in a leader who promised to democratise the party and empower the membership. Corbyn has done that. Whether that means the party is now left vs right is irrelevant, the point is that it's the membership which decides, rather than a few rightwing MPs.
A win on the economy ?
When you watch it you will see that Corbyn is making the point that a fall in real wages for normal people is not the definition of a healthy economy, no matter what the employment figures, gdp, or anything else say.
Yep, all that Brexit induced inflation making people poorer, the record rise in in-work poverty belies the Tories unemployment record.
Directly relate to their shameful universal credit farce
That's why the Tories looked so hollow, that and them screwing up Brexit talks
Will try and watch later, certainly the Corbyn bit. Don’t have time for full 45 mins
Inflation was at these levels back in 2009/10 (think those are the years). World didn’t end then. BoE has a 2% inflation target and we’ve been below that since the above.
In work poverty is driven in part by an effectively infinite supply of cheap labour and things like public indiffernece to GiG economy “employment”. Look at the 100’s of thousands who are supporting the relicensing of Uber. I remember Uber being ordered fo take down ads in the US claiming full time drivers earnt $60,000 as the real numbers are more like $15,000 after vehicle costs etc. 40,000 drivers in London and I’d wager the bulk earn less than the minimum wage after costs
As for Brexit a Corbyn / McDonnell government would have a far more radical (ie negative) impact on the UK economy than the most extreme Remoaner scenarios
Isn’t it strange that plenty of people on here keep saying that we have a lack of credible politicians available, those in charge are useless, hopeless, clueless, but when someone suggests that the power to choose the leader and therefore direction of one of the main political parties in the country should lay with the membership rather than a the clueless they are shouted down as a headbanger..... On here.
@chest the issue that the “membership” be they those that paid £3 or £25 may not be representative of the general voting public, especially those target voters that you need to get onside or indeed could even be sock puppets.
All those criticisms can be labelled at the Tory, indeed any, Party and their membership.
Its de facto true that all parties are made of members who may not be representative of the general voting public. Did you mean to say not representative of those who my vote for them - again always going to be true for any party.
Whilst I agree with you I dont see how one can take a political angle on this its not news that Ukip, the tories or the Greens etc memberships views are not reflective of the wider voting public.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_affiliation_in_the_United_Kingdom
Conservative Party Membership about 100,000
Labour 532,000
Lib Dems 101,000
Whats your point again caller?
In work poverty is driven in part by an effectively infinite supply of cheap labour and things like public indiffernece to GiG economy “employment”.
Yep, we could also look at the public sector where workers have been receiving effective pay cuts for years, and many private sector industries where this is the case. Bad decision making is causing a lot of the problems - what is the Tory plan to fix this?
As for Brexit a Corbyn / McDonnell government would have a far more radical (ie negative) impact on the UK economy than the most extreme Remoaner scenarios
Well give the spectacular job the current government has done so far in tanking the pound, pushing up inflation and under paying people what could be worse?
A defense of the Tories isn't the others might be worse - that is admitting they are bad.
The problem with the left wingers in the Labour party is that they don't seem to realise that the country as whole is not left wing. As has been proved in basically every election ever, the only way to win is to win over the centre, and really centre-right, ground.
On the face of it, you'd be correct, but in reality, I'm not so sure. We still have many aspects of life that are socialist in nature: NHS, state schools, welfare state. The NHS is obviously a very high profile example of something that is intrinsically socialist in its construct yet has very high levels of support.
Corbyn as leader will be as effective at reigning the Tories in as Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock, i.e. not at all.
...and then you say something that makes me wonder why I bothered engaging with you at all. I won't list all that he's done, but most notable was turning an expected landslide victory into an embarrassment of a hung parliament and dysfunctional coalition. In the process of that election, the opposition were even able to make the Tories drop manifesto policies on the fly. On the whole, Labour's unashamedly left-wing manifesto garnered a good deal of support, and the manner in which it was 'leaked' could only have been strategic. So, if you're going to blame him for the negatives, you must also give praise to his leadership for the positives.
So, if you're going to blame him for the negatives, you must also give praise to his leadership for the positives.
are you new?
are you new?
Even I have the odd period of optimism
Yep, it's possible that the majority of the labour vote was a protest at the Tory government but still he has achieved a better representation than her centerist predecessors with more ambitious/left wing policies. It's hard to say the people are against him for that, in fact many seem to support his policies in many areas, perhaps the ground he currently occupies is infact closer to the old centre. The tories are lurching ever rightwards at every opportunityleaving a whole political space vacant.
Labour - Corbyn is not a hard leftie as the right wing press would have you believe. His stance is mainstream in most of Europe. what he believes in is actually the mainstream view and his policies supported by a vast majority of the electorate. Public owned NHS, postal service and Railways for example
As for party membership. Its the tories who have an unrepresentative membership - far more so than any other party and the SNP have more members now than the tories
The problem with the left wingers in the Labour party is that they don't seem to realise that the country as whole is not left wing
What people vote for and what would actually be better for people are 2 different things. Right wing parties really don't help the majority of people in this country and they are not even trying to.
It is all about priorities and intent. The tories could spend more on NHS, schools, benefits by reprioritising, changing their tax model etc,. but they don't need to as they have enough voters fooled into thinking that can't be done.
and simply put who would vote for a party that thinks it's a good idea to charge the poorest people for phone calls to try and sort out their benefits - judge people on their actions.
Corbyn as leader will be as effective at reigning the Tories in as Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock, i.e. not at all.
Tories doing a good job of cut n pasting from Labours manifesto, energy cap, housebuilding, tuition fees, he even got them to ditch the call charges.
Such a void in Tory party right now Corbyns policies are filling that gap by diffusion coz Labours the only party with any genuine ideas
Such a void in Tory party right now Corbyns policies are filling that gap by diffusion coz Labours the only party with any genuine ideas
As I said on the Theresa May thread, the fact that the tories are now being labelled 'labour lite' is a game-changing shift in attitudes for both the public and the media which I don't think the tories will be able to turn around. Funny isn't it how the media now portray Corbyn not as an IRA-supporting lunatic, but as a credible alternative PM who is exposing tory weaknesses on pretty much every front. It's not an accident. Where the media consuming public lead, the providers follow.
Labour - Corbyn is not a hard leftie as the right wing press would have you believe. His stance is mainstream in most of Europe. what he believes in is actually the mainstream view and his policies supported by a vast majority of the electorate. Public owned NHS, postal service and Railways for example
Precisely. The manifesto was mainstream social democratic politics, with a couple of populist flourishes thrown in. That Corbyn is seen as hard left says much about how far this country has lurched to the right since 1979, and who owns the popular press. People need to get their heads round the idea that the centre ground is not fixed.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/19/jeremy-corbyn-tells-theresa-may-and-eu-leaders-to-stop-posturing-brexit-talks ]Anyone still have any doubt that Corbyn has mastered his brief?[/url] Positioning himself and labour as the only people seriously interested in a workable solution to brexit whilst at the same time maintaining distance from both sides is a shrewd move.
kimbers - MemberTories doing a good job of cut n pasting from Labours manifesto, energy cap, housebuilding, tuition fees, he even got them to ditch the call charges.
The only problem is, so many people just think this is the Tories being good boys, while Corbyn and Labour are all loony lefties.
I've just got an email from Labour with the christmas cards in it.
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Slightly tempting to send it to my telegraph-loving in-laws 🙂
Took me a while to work out it was a Theresa May piss-take... 🙂
QT: Name a country where Corbyn type policies have worked ? (ie borrowing billions and billions)
Lady Nugee: mumble mumble dodge question
Dimbleby: That’s not a country
Lady Nugee: [b]Germany[/b]
😀 😀 😀 😀
Germany is famous for running a balaned budget to the point their finance minister was known as “Mr Zero”. A very far cry from spunking £90bn a year more than you are raising in tax revenue and that was Gordon Brown a veritable miser in comparison to John “Mr Marxist” McDonnell
Name a country where Corbyn type policies have worked
worked for who?
Name a country where capitalism has worked for anyone but the richer half. No system or model is going to be perfect but it is the impact of the imperfections, and to who, that you should be concerned about the most.
worked for who?
He needs to define what 'worked' means first. And WTF are 'Corbyn type' policies? (that's directed at Jamba BTW)
Well you are clear about his policy on Brexit first of all, correct?
Unlike the Tories, Corbyn is going to deliver a jobs first Brexshit. That should appeal to lots of people.
[url= http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/momentum-labour-party-manchester-corbyn-13913626 ]And in other news[/url], I see the effort to turn Manchester City Council into an organisation which actually gives a sh*t about mancunians instead of trying to be London in the north is beginning to make progress.
On that note 😉 I bumped into Andy Burnham in the middle of the City Of London this week. It was a surprise to see him there (or not)
Much smaller than he looks on TV and surprisingly no (obvious) protection with him. His eyes give him an oddly vulnerable look too.
I saw that question on QT the other night. Basically, what merely and dazh said. I did think to myself at the time what a stupid question it was but that’s the QT audience these days. It really was the type of question that would make a right wing idiot tumescent.
As for Thornberry, she’d do well to rein in the whole sardonic sarcasm thing she goes on with - she is very good value for winding up our forum right wingers though.
Awesome thread! just scanned through a few pages, all a bit futile really innit? The systems broke, or rather unbalanced. It's as much the fault of 'joe (or Jo) public' not engaging as it is the fault of the system. Remember it's not the politicians that run the joint! As long as they continue to keep just enough of us 'rich' enough to believe we're 'comfortable' they will keep the status quo ...... mind you, they're having to work for it now!
Apologies if this has been posted before and even if it hasn't, I'll no doubt get flamed for posting it anyway!
[url= https://www.ted.com/talks/pia_mancini_how_to_upgrade_democracy_for_the_internet_era ]How to upgrade democracy[/url]
We don't still drive around in horse & carts so why do we allow our lives to be run by a system from that era?
McDonnell is at it again. Now he’s an Investment genius as his investments via the “National Investment Bank” are only ever going to go up 😯
There are rules about what you can claim and quite rightly BS like that isn’t allowed.
He should have a look at the track record of the German Landesbanks (state guaranteed, mandated to support regional business deveiopment). Some of the world’s biggest investors in US subprime.
But hey honit will all be dofferent undsr Marxist John
There are rukes about what you can claim and quite rightly BS like that isn’t allowed.
Ah the ironyzzz
It’s a long time since Marr has looked like he feels genuinely sorry for a politician but he just listened with pity in his eyes at JMcD this morning before a final tease to show that he hasn’t got away with it
It’s as if he has had a crash course in NPV calculations and has read securitisation for dummies but only 0.125 gets it. Marr just backed off when he realised that JMCD simply doesn’t understand what his advisers are proposing. Rather sad to watch.
At least he was crystal clear on the Irish border question.
At this moment corbyn could take a dump in my bed and I'd still vote for him over those other ****s.
Its not as good as his one the other day where he accused someone of lying to achieve a political goal but I do agree he has upped his satire over the last few days
Did that Non tory THM just attack the labour party ...what a turn up for the books that is
HOUSE 😉
Odd neither of them picked up on this comment on the same show- I guess it must be because he is not Dianne Abbot or a marxist that they let it slip their minds?
fromt he chancellor“Where are all these unemployed people? There are no unemployed people. We have created 3.5m jobs since 2010. This economy has become a jobs factory.
But hey honit will all be dofferent undsr Marxist John
You use the word Marxist as though it is bad. I see it as a good trait.
(hope you have since recovered from the episode you were clearly having while typing that collection of letters by the way)
You use the word Marxist as though it is bad.
100 million dead will do that. I guess if they’d just killed a few million more it might have worked.
Cite.
Jamba and THM illustrate quite nicely and not a little ironically just why labour are so popular. The financial elite and their political brethren continue to lecture everyone else about what is possible and/or acceptable. Trouble is people no longer believe or trust them for the simple reason that when it suits them, like in the banking crisis, the rules can be easily discarded and replaced with others. If innovative and unorthodox solutions can be found to rescue the banks, then the same is true to rescue public services, protect jobs and pay people properly.
100 million dead will do that.
Marxism hasn't killed a single person, how can a theory kill anyone.
Dash indeed - people are vulnerable to BS whether a it's Trump, McD, the Sctoosh GNats, the Brexshiteers etc
As Marr pointed out, despite the fact that the Tories are in deep disarray and the economy is slowing, the GB public are still just aware enough to understand that the JMcD doesn pt fully understand what he is proposing and hence Labour are not gaining in the polls in the way you would expect.
Still at least they will give us a jobs first Brexshit, which will be a relief to many.
Marxism hasn't killed a single person, how can a theory kill anyone.
😆
I guess your fine with nazis too then. Obviously they killed a lot less and you can’t hold an ideology responsible after all.
I guess your fine with nazis too then. Obviously they killed a lot less and you can’t hold an ideology responsible after all.
You’re aware of the difference between ideologies and theories, yes?
And the difference between intelligent debate and straw-manning, yes?
Or perhaps you’re not.
The general populus dont GAS about economics as much as you do. It surprises me how much you think everyone is like you and thinks like you - no idea why as the tories could never win could they 😉the GB public are still just aware enough to understand that the JMcD doesn pt fully understand what he is proposing and hence Labour are not gaining in the polls in the way you would expect.
I dont think the general public think like me either
It might be wiser if we discussed totalitarian regimes and Nazis have to be like that marxist/communist dont, but they very often were
PS capitalism kills milions every year via poverty ,starvation and disease [ often easily preventable]- the money is there its just not distributed fairly/equitably.
So tell us the STW collective.
Name one country where Corbyn’s policies have been successful ? One country, anywhere ? You can decide for whom they have been successful, although the QT questioner clearly meant for “the country as a whole”
The same stupid question twice in one week?
So you can’t name one either.
Next STWer please
Jamba you need to both name the policies and define the parameters of success before anyone will bite. Here's a clue though, there are plenty of countries with efficient state owned transport systems, health and social services and utilities. Also plenty of countries that have a more progressive tax systems and infustrial policies which are investment driven instead of maximising shareholder returns. And do we really need to mention the countries with state-funded further and higher education systems? Also let’s not forget countries with strict environmental regulations, generous benefits and social housing programmes. Are you really going to claim that not a single country has achieved any of this?
Which policies? Plenty of countries have nationalised industries, free higher education, social security and no nuclear weapons.
And then take a look at the good old us of a. It never got caught up in that silly game of providing health care or good free education. It's a mess, Australia is heading down the private public avenue and guess what it costs more for a worse service.
If the UK is at a turning point where people will accept taxes in exchange for services then it's time to take it. If it goes much further it will be too late. In 20 years we have gone from free universities to fees of up to 9k and people think it's the norm.
The majority of the true blue Tories here will not see the slightest impact of cuts in their bubbles, to them it's not an issue. They will be the ones asked to pay more so the selfish gene comes into play.
Lets try Sweden. Or maybe the Netherlands?
@Jamba Google top ten happiest countries and you'll see the countries your looking for.
Corbyn’s policies. He is defining them not me. That was the QT question.
Do Sweden and Holland have the policies suggested by Corbyn and John the Marxist McDonnell, do they run huge budget deficits ? Are they nationalising industries ? VAT on food, Holland 6%, Sweden 12% BTW
Corbyn and McDonnell would make the £90bn pa run up by Gordon Brown look positively frugal. McDonnell would be Chancellor but won’t admit Government bonds (ie borrowing) is debt and says all (his) investments will only go up. To give him his credit in a parallel universe like that maybe his policies will work out just fine
How about a list of 3 or 4 policies and a list of 3 or 4 countries.
Failing that can we just make up names for the current government...
McDonnell would make the £90bn pa run up by Gordon Brown look positively frugal
as bad as what the tories have run up? what is it now excatly and when exactly did they say they would balance the budget by originally ? is it four times now they have moved the date or five?
Do Sweden and Holland have the policies suggested by Corbyn and John the Marxist McDonnell,
Yes. Infact probably further left in many ways. they don't have to take back to public ownership key industries never having given away public assets
All the rest of what you say is your interpretation of his policies. Its not a Corbyn policy to run up a 90 gazillion debt - thats the tory misinterpretation of his policies
It really was the type of question that would make a right wing idiot tumescent.
and as if by magic ...
Corbyn’s policies. He is defining them not me. That was the QT question.
Just to be clear - you're criticising JMcD for being out of touch on the day when Theresa the Christian(*)'s chancellor said there were no unemployed? Right - it all makes sense now ....
(*Millions dead, and still counting)
On an entirely different subject - Jezza got a lot of stick for suggesting that he'd been unable to get a seat on a Virgin train. I had to stand for 3 1/2 hours yesterday, from Darlington to KX. Not even room to sit on the floor. I wonder if Richard Branson will be releasing the CCTV footage?
Did you just walk by all the apparently empty seats first though?
Yes.
And then the train manager escorted me to a comfy chair.
Except she didn't as she was barricaded in her cubby hole unable to move and had nothing to do except make announcements about WiFi failure, credit card system failure, diversion of train via Lincoln, unscheduled stops at various beauty spots, all received with laughter and cheers in the sort of 40's spirit that I assume will become everyday life post-Brexit.
If you weren't so unpatriotic I expect you would have reserved a seat. Though I can't blame you for wanting to be in a hurry to leave Darlo.
Name one country where Corbyn’s policies have been successful ?
Nationalised industry - Norway
Nationalised rail - take your pick from countries with reputations for decent rail - France, Germany, Switzerland...
Cycle infrastructure - Netherlands
Seriously Jam, this is poor. Why don't you pick a specific policy you don't think will work and we'll talk about that.
Corbyn’s policies. He is defining them not me. That was the QT question.
Like I said, name us some policies and we'll come back to you with countries where they've worked. It would appear that the only policy you care about is reducing national debt. How are the tories getting on with that?
Like I said, name us some policies and we'll come back to you with countries where they've worked.
I'm pretty sure the questioner in the original youtube vid was asking for examples of countries where governments had borrowed to invest, and this had grown the economy and therefore reduced national debt.
That's the bit that makes most people a bit skeptical.
Most people's understanding of Corbynomics is that it's Keynesian Stimulus on steroids: Borrow money, have loads of good stuff, debt reduces.
Trump said he was going to do exactly that. Did he?
We discussed this in this thread in the spring, way higher up the thread. Nobody could name anywhere, then. Nobody could explain why, if it's that easy, every nation isn't doing it. Are Treasury civil servant Economists throughout Europe and the world really so dumb they have a lesser understanding of Keynes than mountain bikers?
On an entirely different subject - Jezza got a lot of stick for suggesting that he'd been unable to get a seat on a Virgin train. I had to stand for 3 1/2 hours yesterday, from Darlington to KX. Not even room to sit on the floor. I wonder if Richard Branson will be releasing the CCTV footage?
Corbyn walked past empty, unreserved seats, didn't he? It was just a photo op as he courts publicity.
3 1/2 hours, thats nothing - I've done over 5 hours on those virgin trains standing, and not even able to stand upright as I was near the door and those cariages have a funny shape.
And I had a very small folding stoool in my rucksack, but not enough room to put it up.
It was stuffed with students though at either the start or end of term.
And I also had bad piriformis syndrome at the time, but luckily was using one of these, which are therefore fully recommended :
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