Jeremy Corbyn

Totally agree. But is that the strategy of Corbyn or his PLP and media opponents?

264 pages have been spent (not) answering that one 😀

But in recent times, the most successful party in UK politics has abandoned principles, deceived and happily delivered RW* policies with LW* rhetoric. And the voters have lapped it up in spades.

Look North, [s]young[/s] old man, look North.....

* not forgetting that these terms are well past their sell by date

No apology needed, Junky my old prawn and pickle sandwich! 🙂

I am not really sure how you can object to a principled stance though you may well object to the principles stood for.

Well this is just it, isn't it? I admire people who stand on principle, even if I disagree with those principles. The key here is to get enough people to agree with enough of your principles to elect you, thus allowing you to actually act on those principles. Otherwise, they're just a one cheek sneak of a fart in a jacuzzi.

True and this is the grip of the dilemma here.
Corbyn almost certainly is unelectable - not necessarily his fault but he needs either the PLP or the press and he has neither.
He is screwed and so are the party.

I dont see anyone we , the broad church of the left, can unite behind. The PLP hate corbyn, I [ we?] hate them. Its a mess.

I almost wish for David Milliband ....its that bad.

Corbyn really acted on his principles re unilateralism didn't he? He used his power to change policy at conference as leader, and to whip his troops into voting against renewal of trident, did't he? He really brought all that conviction to bear didn't he - so effective! What a leader! 😉

😀

Time for one of my favourite cartoons of recent time (this I may have posted before)

[img] [/img]

David Miliband. I dislike him and actually don't see him being viewed that differently to his brother by the electorate BUT I wonder if he would have got the RW press on side?

dazh - Member
Stop being so naive. The only thing that counts is winning the game, being in power, and having bragging rights over the other lot.

Eh? I must be really ****ing naive. Cooper, Burnham and Kendal had no chance of winning a G.E

I almost wish for David Milliband ....its that bad.

But in recent times, the most successful party in UK politics has abandoned principles, deceived and happily delivered RW* policies with LW* rhetoric. And the voters have lapped it up in spades.

And that's what I would suggest Corbyn is changing. Obviously not enough to win an election any time soon, and certainly not with him at the helm. But if that change is indeed what is happening, then it's worth the long haul. I think many in the labour party, and outside given the number of new members they've acquired, agree with this, and it's why those who don't still don't understand what's going on. I hate to use the word as all sorts of hysteria and cliche is attached to it, but what is going on right now is quite revolutionary. The labour party is now the largest political party in Europe, with a membership and leadership (even the non-leadership if you take Smith at his word) united against the status quo of the past 40 years. The fact that this could happen here, in perhaps the most neo-liberal and rightwing country in Europe (or perhaps the world), is pretty amazing. It's hardly a surprise the upheaval it's causing.

Eh? I must be really **** naive. Cooper, Burnham and Kendal or anybody else off that conveyor belt had no chance of winning a G.E

There is no sarcasm smiley.

The labour boys are v quiet on this whole Cooperative thingy so far. Do they not read the broadsheets?

So is it going to be

(Back to the) Labour and Cooperative Party
The Labour and/or Coopperatuve Party
The Labour or the Cooperatuve Party
HM LT Opposition
None the above?

As I have posted before I thought David Milliband would have been the right leader with tye potential of creating a party I might vote for. I am certain he would,have won oevr the middle ground swing voters necessary to win power.

TMH I don't read much from JRF, its a politically motivated organisation with a clear agenda. Do you see the chart which shows EU migration jumping from 15k pa for 200k+ plus from 2003 and how those new EU countries provide workers with average incomes lower than the UK average, they are taking low paid jobs and depressing wages of existing workers. It really isn't rocket science (which btw the way is a proper sciemce unlike Economics which is at best a hybid science and arts subject full of conjecture)

Cooperative Party. Maybe its to do with stamps ?

Interesting dash although I have a different interpretataion at least with respect to principles and telling the truth. IMO we are seeing exactly the opposite to what you suggest, hence the tag lines #posttruthpolitics. There are no ST answers to how we get ourselves out of the levels of excess leverage. This plays into the hands of protest parties of any political persuasion as long as they are not the incumbents. So they spout BS and lies and pretend these are the answers. And this is lapped up by those desperate for the ST answered that do not exist. The worst part of all of this is that xenophobia, racism and isolationalism are common themes.

In this context the Labour Party shenanigans are merely an amusing sideshow and distraction from the more concerning political developments around us.Of course, when this spills over into silly comments re NATO then it does become very serious.

Jambas I appreciate the you prefer not to read much on this issue 😉 hence your habit of making incorrect statements about the impact of immigration. But if the RF are likely to have any bias it is more likely to be wanting to show the effect that you describe. That the reject your hypothesis instead is all the more telling.

dazh - Member
There is no sarcasm smiley.

Ah yes you would have made more sense with a sarcasm smiley! Try ;~) if yours isn't working.

😉

IMO we are seeing exactly the opposite to what you suggest, hence the tag lines #posttruthpolitics

Possibly. It's certainly on a knife-edge, and possibly explains why the battle lines are so distinct even though the winning post is so far off. For my money I don't see this (small) revolution succeeding, there's just too much aligned against it and things probably need to get a lot worse before it has a chance of expanding beyond well-meaning lefty types and the younger generation. Maybe it'll simply be a case of demographics? Wait 10-20 years and most of the baby-boomers will be gone and in their place a new generation of people paying off the debts left to them by their elders.

Try ;~) if yours isn't working.

Given my previous comments on this thread I assumed it would have been obvious. I'm obviously not being partisan enough 🙂

Not sure how waiting for the old lefties to die off will help. The new generation is more right wing than their parents.

The new generation is more right wing than their parents.

Maybe the ones who stand to inherit all the wealth they've accrued at the expense of future generations. I'm not sure that will continue though when it starts to disappear.

The new generation is more right wing than their parents.

Actually you are wrong on them being more right wing
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3575/How-Britain-voted-in-2015.aspx
AGE CON LAB
18-24 27 43
25-34 33 36
35-44 35 35
45-54 36 33
55-64 37 31
65+ 47 23

Given my previous comments on this thread I assumed it would have been obvious. I'm obviously not being partisan enough

Ha- to me you are the balanced one on this thread (hence my misconstruing you)

Actually you are wrong on them being more right wing
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3575/How-Britain-voted-in-2015.aspx
AGE CON LAB
18-24 27 43
25-34 33 36
35-44 35 35
45-54 36 33
55-64 37 31
65+ 47 23

I wonder if more lefties actually vote in their youth skewing the figures, or if it's just still the case people just move right a they grow up.

When JC wins (again)...what are all the anti- Corbyn, middle-ground, neo-liberalist Labour supporters going to do? Will you switch party, accept the vote or something else?

EVB - early plans (at least among MPs) laid out in yesterday's Sunday Times. Hence my questions re the Cooperative Party. A spilt is increasingly likely, the details are currently under discussion. Labour supporters will presumably make a choice, not that it is likely to make much difference in the short term.

@thm... interesting. I'll Google that article. A split seems the most sensible way forward and allows MP's and voters alike an opportunity for progression in each camp, instead of stagnantion caused by fighting.. I wonder if the Green party would join with the Corbyn camp...they have the most similar values.

Hence my questions re the Cooperative Party.

Its an interesting thought that the current MP's could effectively cross the floor to the cooperative party.

Then Corbyn would be faced with the challenge of abandoning a 90 year old electoral pact that was at the heart of the movement.

(edit, not sure if there is a cap on number of co-op mp's in the cheltenham agreement, anyone?)

A split seems the most sensible way forward

and allows MP's and voters alike an opportunity for progression in each camp,

On the plus side the opposition will be no less effective 😉

So they will all resign en masse and stand again for the new party and see what voters think? Is it not more likely they will ignore the labour voters and also the electorate who voted for a labour MP

Well, Labour Party never made Oswald Mosely do it when he joined them...

Is there precedent for parties pledging to cooperate? A pre-election coalition?

Is there precedent for parties pledging to cooperate? A pre-election coalition?

The existing agreement between Labour and the co-operative party is probably the best precedent, no?

When JC wins (again)...what are all the anti- Corbyn, middle-ground, neo-liberalist Labour supporters going to do? Will you switch party, accept the vote or something else?

erm, yeah, I'm about as comfortable with 'neoliberalist' as you'd expect a traditional old leftie to be but hey, if the cap fits...

As a long-term party member, barely active these days other than via monthly standing order, I'll stick about whilst carnage and electoral oblivion and minimum three tory ge victories ensue, until some sense of reality starts to return. Like last time. And I won't say 'I told you so.'

(With fptp a split only plays into the hands of those with no interest in power through parliament. And parliament is where the power is. Someone asked above about what oppositions can do - one thing is rewrite legislation in committee. Something Owen Smith has apparently done a fair bit of on benefits, corb not so much.)

Tmh I am very happy with the accuracy of my statements on the impact of of immigration and how the nature of that immigration have changed over the last 20 years as the EU has changed. Even that article showed that clearly, they just chose to get the smoke and mirrors out and confuse their analysis.

New Statesmen artcile by Chi Onwurah (ex shadow cabinet). Have we done this ? Some stunning quotes, here are just a few;

There is nothing socialist about incompetence, I said in explaining my decision to vote no-confidence in Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership. But since then, it has been made clear to me that many prefer incompetent out-of-power socialism to what they perceive to be the alternative.

Jeremy made it impossible for two of the very few BME women MPs to do their jobs properly, undermining both us and Labour’s role as the voice of opposition to the government.

Unfortunately it takes more than protesting other peoples’ prejudice to bring about change. It takes organisation, communication and action. That is what has been lacking under his leadership.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/08/labour-mp-any-other-job-jeremy-corbyn-would-have-faced-industrial-tribunal

In September Jeremy gave me the job of shadow minister for culture and the digital economy. In the January reshuffle he gave half the job to Thangam Debbonaire. As the leader, he had every right to do so; unfortunately he omitted to tell her or me. When he realised what he had done, he gave the role back to me, without telling Thangam. So far, so annoying, but to be fair uncertainty is part of every reshuffle. However Jeremy then went on for the next two months refusing my insistence that he speak to Thangam, indeed refusing to speak to either of us, whether directly or through the shadow cabinet, the whips, or his own office. No one knew what he wanted us to do, no one was clear on what we should be doing.

😐

Same cock up after same cock up reported like its news every week.

Which has been more damaging to the Labour Party Corbyn's cock ups or the coup attempt?

Smith and Khan have said "we were not part of any coup/turmoil" (turmoil was Khan's word) implicit criticism of those that were.

I think the Labour Party will have to wash some coup/plotters dirty linen before next leadership election. Maybe Angela Eagle can write something like

"I was told I would be sole leadership contender, they even showed me a website) angela4leader.co.uk. Then all of a sudden I was ditched, I was told that a straight man would have more chance thana gay woman"

I'd just like to ask the Jeremy enthusiasts (and for that matter, the Owen supporters) on here, given that the rag taggle embarrassment that is the Labour Party and it's forthcoming adoption of policies designed to turn the UK into the next Socialist failed state, hasn't a hope in hell of being elected, of what use is it?

Can I respond with a few questions of my own woppit...

Is all of this hatred for Corbyn a modern day equivalent of the JFK assassination? Thousands of Neo-Con Oswald's cowering feverishly at their computer screens ?

Do people find the idea of equal rights for poorer people as abhorrent as people found the idea of equal rights for african americans?

Of what use is the desire to hold back the tide of progress?

No Yunki (if I may reply) its much simpler, much much simpler

The leader of HM Opposition is an important job
The current incumbent is not up to the task and is unable to fulfil this part of his mandate effectively
A new leader is required - obviously
But the options appear very limited/non-existent
Hence the problem....

The rest is just noise, exaggerated massively for effect.

"progress" implies an improvement/step forward. Current debacle is just the opposite.

cool 🙂

Yunki Corbyn has far too much baggage, no suitable leadership skills (none, zero), is a magnate for those ready to dish out agressive abuse to his opponents and the only chance the extreme left have of gaining any influence by hijacking a national political party. If the Greens or SWP had any real popularity they would be a real political force.

We live in one of the most egalitarian and libertarian countries in the world. Full stop. We already have equal opportunities in education, in health care and in our justice system. There will always be differences in how successful people are, not least based upon the real life education and environment parents provide. The world is changing rapidly, its population growing exponentially. There are many people living with very little, what we have we are very forunate to have and we should recognise this and understand that there is a relatively unlimited supply of cheap labour willing to do all our jobs.

Why if our country is so unequal and bad for poor people are there millions of citizens of other poorer countries (inside and outside the EU) who are so keen to come here ?

Why if our country is so unequal and bad for poor people are there millions of citizens of other poorer countries (inside and outside the EU) who are so keen to come here ?

Because of the amazing mountain bike trails?

Why if our country is so unequal and bad for poor people are there

Are you denying that there's an inequality problem?

How much inequality is ok?

Jamba facts part 47.

We donot live in one of the most equal societies on earth. Ours is very unequal compared to most of Europe. We do not have equal opportunities in healthcare education or the justice system. In all those with money have better outcomes.

Corbyn is not of the far left

Greens hold political power in Scotland.

"We live in one of the most egalitarian and libertarian countries in the world. Full stop."

😆

How can I become Head of State?

"We already have equal opportunities in education, in health care and in our justice system."

😆

If I want to send my children to Eton but have no money, how can I do that?

If I have an illness that isn't life threatening, what's the quickest way to get treatment?

If I'm non-white, female, disabled and/or gay, why am I far less likely to get paid the same as a straight, able bodied white man?

You really don't have a clue about the world the rest of us live in, Jamby. Not a clue. 🙄

You really don't have a clue about the world the rest of us live in, Jamby. Not a clue.

I honestly think that's a key driver for right-wing ideology.