Why if our country is so unequal and bad for poor people are there millions of citizens of other poorer countries (inside and outside the EU) who are so keen to come here ?
Err..Because they aren't being bombed?
If a split does happpen, who owns the moniker of 'Labour Party'?
Any MP wandering over to a 'Cooperative party' is risking their own seat. I've worked on many an election and the typical voter (i.e. not STW) will vote for the party name, not the individual. You would lose an awful lot of votes by using a different name.
"If a split does happpen, who owns the moniker of 'Labour Party'?"
The Labour party and it's members. Not those who decide to ignore the mandate of the elected leader, and leave. Because they'd be 80 or so people, against hundreds of thousands.
Pretty simple really.
People come here for the age old reason of opportunity. Also on the whole the UK is a pretty nice place to live, it doesn't mean it is perfect though and we should stop trying to improve it. However, IMO Corbyn doesn't have the answers to improve it.
"However, IMO Corbyn doesn't have the answers to improve it."
He's provided plenty of 'answers', which the mainstream media etc have routinely ignored. Answers so good, that Owen Smith has almost universally 'adopted' them. 😆
As for 'leadership'; it's clear that Corbyns aim was to create the necessary schism that will see Labour return to the left, and the Blairites left out in the political wilderness. He's doing a fantastic job at that, and gaining increasing party support. No wonder the right are so scared of him!
any MP wandering over to a 'Cooperative party' is risking their own seat. I've worked on many an election and the typical voter (i.e. not STW) will vote for the party name, not the individual. You would lose an awful lot of votes by using a different name.
Yes, but srely that's why they are already officially listed as "Labour and Cooperative party candidate" and get to use the labour emblem on the ballot paper
I love when people attack Jambas for his abuse of facts and then do exactly the same thing! The hypocrisy is breathtaking although not unusual
e most equal societies on earth. Ours is very unequal compared to most of Europe. We do not have equal opportunities in healthcare education or the justice system. In all those with money have better outcomes.
A simple check of the facts illustrates that our level of income inequality is almost exactly on the EU average. On top of this our cash benefits systems further reduces the level of inequality in disposable income, although the impact of this is variable over time. It's a shame for the revisionists that the reality is so far removed from their rhetoric.
Eton? Apply for a shcolarhsip or bursary. Approx 1/3 of pupils at independent schools receive financial support. The uniform looks a little uncomfortable though, so perhaps wouldn't recommend it!!
Health? How do you manage unlimited demands with limited supply? At the most basic level you can ration by waiting, price or a combination of the two, We use the combination approach and apparently we have the best system in the world, or so the medics tell me. Jezza has no magic bullet for that one.
ok...
I dunno enough politics to ascertain whether or not Corbyn has the potential to be a good leader, although the backlash from the right leaning contingency would seem to indicate that he is a massive threat 🙂 and I dunno if he could ever wield enough power to address this country's inequality issues
What I'm really interested in is why the most outspoken folk on here that are opposed to greater equality, deny equality issues or are completely indifferent are so desperately keen to protect the interests of the wealthy elite?
What do you hope to achieve with antiquated 'blame the poor' schtick?
Surely there aren't that many toffs on the forum?
what gives?
what's your motivation?
There clearly isn't a shortage of funds, it's just that there's a relatively small group of very sick puppies that have an unhealthy obsession with hording, and they happen to privileged enough to horde cash
"A simple check of the facts"
Which 'facts' are those then?
A simple look around the real world, illustrates that this is a nonsense.
"Eton? Apply for a shcolarhsip or bursary."
And statements like this shows just how out of touch you are with reality. That you clearly didn't get my point, proves this. 🙄
I won't bother with any other genuine facts. You can't even deal with the made up ones. 😆
What I'm really interested in is why the most outspoken folk on here that are opposed to greater equality, deny equality issues or are completely indifferent are so desperately keen to protect the interests of the wealthy elite?
Any evidence of this ? Inaccurate points re equality have been addressed as they should be, otherwise I see little evidence of what you suggest, We live in a society with a progressive tax system that plays an important (if imperfect) role in addressing inequality of income outcomes. Of course, all of this assumes that equality of outcome is a moral absolute....(which it isn't)
I think you will find that like most politics in the UK there is broad consensus re the ends but marginal differences in the means, That's a characteristic of our society.
Don't worry once he's spent all his money on re-nationalising the big 6 energy firms and re-opening the coal mines there won't be any money left for schools, NHS etc.
Interesting the attack on Eton is the type of petty thing that achieves little and goes down badly with a significant portion of voters.
you're bonkers mate... absolutely screaming bonkers 😆
Err, you could try the official source of economic facts in the UK clod or resort to a diatribe. Your choice,
You asked a (facetious) question about Eton and got a straight answer. Sorry that doesn't suit.
Deluded is the word I'd use, Yunki. Utterly ****ing deluded.
"I see little evidence of what you suggest"
This is clearly because you a) spend far too much time on here, and b) obviously do not have sufficient experience of society at anything more than a superficial level, which means you are completely out of touch with the reality experienced by so many in our society. Perhaps if you swapped your keyboard for actually visiting various parts of our country, and talking to real people, you'd become somewhat more enlightened.
Oh, here's some facts for you:
https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk
Stick your 'facts' where the sun don't shine. 😆
Speaking of getting off the computer, and sunshine...
yunki - Member
Can I respond with a few questions of my own woppit...
I'd rather you dealt with mine.
Whoops, looks like somethings come off the rails:
[i]Images released by Virgin Trains show that honest and authentic Jeremy Corbyn staged that video in which he sat on a train floor and appealed for “public ownership” of the railways. In a statement Virgin revealed that the 67 year-old Labour leadership favourite walked past “empty, unreserved seats” prior to filming the video. After shooting the film, he was assisted by train staff to seats which he and his team occupied for the remainder of the journey to Newcastle. Stick to regular sit-ins, Jez…[/i]
😆
http://order-order.com/2016/08/23/corbyns-train-squat-doesnt-stand/
Turns out that "busy train" where Corbers had to sit on the floor due to lack of seats not only had seats but there was one reserved for him. More of the "new politics" we were promised I guess.
Edit: beaten to it
tjagain - member
Ours is very unequal compared to most of Europe
Especially if you're in the shadow cabinet apparently....
@just5minutes - given that we both posted that at the same time, are we now part of a conspiracy?
show that honest and authentic Jeremy Corbyn staged that video in which he sat on a train floor
Wait - HE staged it?
Maybe he got on a crowded train on the wrong carriage and, rather than fight his way through to his seat and evict a squatter, he thought he'd sit on the floor anyway. Then it was filmed and other people made a big deal out of it. That seems more likely to me, tbh, but maybe it's all the kind of big political stunt he's known for...
But anyway - how important is it?
Clod, the wonder that is wifi means that you can access this nonsense from a variety of places. I have change location by 40 miles on this page alone!
But please help me out. How do I tell if someone is real or not. There are some people sitting in the coffee shop next to me. Do I just ask or should I try and pinch them?
Thanks for your advice in advance
But anyway - how important is it?
Truthful, honest politician.
Or a bit of a liar, just like every other politician.
But anyway - how important is it?
Important enough for his supporters to have made a big thing about how 'principled' & 'egalitarian' it made him 😆
Maybe he got on a crowded train on the wrong carriage
Since we've drifted off into the 'maybes' then maybe there were only empty seats next to somebody and Jeremy refused to sit next to one of the hoi-polloi?
Molgrips - how important is it if video evidence is released that appears to show the leader of the opposition "staging" an event?
Is it better or worse that he was on his way to a leadership debate [s]conducted on the principles of a gentler honest kind of politics[/s] where he then made political points about the "problem" he encountered?
Most people would be fired for this sort of stuff at work. Is this conduct any less excusable because the person doing it is an MP?
Molgrips - how important is it if video evidence is released that appears to show the leader of the opposition "staging" an event?
Are you answering or just re-iterating the question? That was an actual question by the way not rhetoric.
And in any case - he might've *appeared* to stage an event, but the question is did he *actually* stage it? Questions like this is where the political debate goes off the rails imo. We want the country run competently for the benefit of all. If he can do that, I don't give a shit where he sits on trains.
Important enough for his supporters to have made a big thing about how 'principled' & 'egalitarian' it made him
Some of them did, aye. But did he? Did all of his supporters? I'd have thought it obvious at this time that not all Labour or Corbyn supporters are of one mind...
where he then made political points about the "problem" he encountered?
Was the train overcrowded or not? If so, he can use that fact to make political points, of course he can. Makes no difference where he personally sat. The question is was the train overall overcroweded, and are the trains generally overcrowded?
But did he? Did all of his supporters? I'd have thought it obvious at this time that not all Labour or Corbyn supporters are of one mind...
Well, since the video was by an authorised documentary maker who was travelling with him, then you have to presume there was some level of authorisation, and even if there wasn't, if the initially reported version was untrue, why didn't Jeremy's press team come out with a clarification?
The question is was the train overall overcroweded, and are the trains generally overcrowded?
Well, if there were empty, unreserved seats, then clearly the answer has to be a resounding no doesn't it?
he might've *appeared* to stage an event, but the question is did he *actually* stage it? Questions like this is where the political debate goes off the rails imo. We want the country run competently for the benefit of all. If he can do that, I don't give a shit where he sits on trains."
Maybe the facts can help us here - the video and stills show:
1. He walked past unreserved empty seats
2. He sits in the vestibule and does his video
3. He walks to a seat and spends the next 2 hours sat in it
4. He arrives in Newcastle and talks about not having anywhere to sit on the train
We are also told (this may not be a fact) that he actually had a reserved seat.
If we can't answer the simple question of whether it was staged or not we're a bit ****ed. Can we really expect a leader to run anything competently when they are spending their time reportedly making things up?
Of course he staged it. His transport policy document was out the same day. Playing the media game, getting in the papers etc. Like Cameron riding his bike to work with a car following him.
In next weeks episode of The Only Way is Islington Comrade...
Jeremy has his rent raised well above the rate of inflation by an unscrupulous private landlord, and has to resort to borrowing money from a payday lender
I love technology!
Walking past empty seats with no reservations:
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
Geotagged location
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
Can we really expect a leader to run anything competently when they are spending their time reportedly making things up?
Hmm.. tricky one this.
Trains are overcrowded, yes. However, if he's going to sit on the floor to make a point, he should've admitted it was a stunt. Otherwise it'll backfire.
However - he does have a point, does he not?
Also - did he put out the 'man of the people' message or was it one of his supporters? Some of whom we know are a bit unhinged.
However - he does have a point, does he not?
No, not if there were seats available. In that case he doesn't have a point.
From the tweets: "Don't blow it now Agent Corbyn, your mission to destroy the Labour Party is almost complete."
Based on the reaction of Jezzas supporters to this one event I'm beginning to think Corbyn is even more of a cult than Sturgeon is up here.
(On that note, you should watch reaction to tomorrows GERS figures to get an object lesson in how to try to spin or ignore inconvenient facts)
EDIT: as Al Murray just put it on twitter: "We can now add CCTV to the list of biased MSM outlets" :O)
No, not if there were seats available. In that case he doesn't have a point.
Well he's talking about trains in general, presumably, not that specific service?
And trains in general are overcrowded at peak times so I think he does have a point. Do you deny that there is an overcrowding issue?
Trains are overcrowded
They are, though I'm yet to see a sensible solution to this. Bringing them into public ownership can't generate longer platforms, more rolling stock or upgrade the infrastructure.
Either way, everyone knows the trains are busy, you don't need a staged stunt to bring it to everyone's attention.
And, as someone who used the trains in British Rail days and now uses them under the TOC's, why oh why do we think a publicly owned railway would be better???? BR were terrible, horrific punctuality, old and dirty rolling stock and generally a horrible place to be. The new system is not perfect but it is so much better than the old BR days.
Yep Corbyn is making a point unlike Cameron riding his bike in when he was trying to make himself look good/green.
Still I think both stunts are daftness. But I'm kind of glad Corbyn is at least trying to play the media game.
Apparently, if you nationalise something, it works just fine....
This must be why Jeremy wants to nationalise, well, just about everything.
See you at the " Citizen Assembly" comrades...
The train thing's comms fluff, but let's just say it doesn't alter my impressions of his and his team's general levels of competence.
As in if you were going to make the point that trains are overpriced and some are really overcrowded you'd travel Leeds-Manc or cross country to Birmingham or something. I travel on the East Coast line a lot and it's really not that bad (in terms of crowding. Not price.) You'd also not stage something that's obviously going to be rumbled. Hey ho.
Trains - look at the east cost mainline. Franchise went bust, back to public ownership. made a big surplus with high travelling standards. Back to franchise. costs us more, service worse.
the last days of BR were bad because of lack of investment.
From @OwenSmith_MP
"My campaign remains on track. Proud to be genuinely standing up for ordinary people."
Hes got my vote just for that :O)
This must be why Jeremy wants to nationalise, well, just about everything.
why oh why do we think a publicly owned railway would be better????
Why oh why do we think a new public railway would be the same as BR????
old and dirty rolling stock
The trains I use most were new in the days of BR, ironically.
Bringing them into public ownership can't generate longer platforms, more rolling stock or upgrade the infrastructure.
Well I believe the theory is profits would have to be re-invested instead of given out to investors. So if there were any profits then yes those things would happen.
They are, though I'm yet to see a sensible solution to this.
Building new lines would be a start.. oh wait, that's unpopular too...
Part of the solution is supposed to be HS2, which to be fair Corbyn does support.
Why oh why do we think a new public railway would be the same as BR????
What else would it look like? That's the last time the UK railways network was public owned, why would it look different?
The East Coast is 1 line, it was run well, but running a whole network is a different kettle of fish altogether.