Jeremy Corbyn

ninfan - Member
"Tories in the Labour party'
Go on then, who is your political Fulcrum, at what point, politically, do you become a Red Tory?

I would start with those who abstained from opposing austerity or the DWP measures.

But I'm no expert. I'm watching this from the sidelines only because I regard Corbyn as Labour's best chance of recovery - which I do not want to see because a strong Labour party will affect our chances of independence in Scotland by taking seats from the SNP.

Before that can happen though the PLP needs to give up it's authoritarian and machiavellian machinations and start listening and talking to them.

Couldn't agree more Daz. They're not doing themselves any favours.I don't know how they think its being perceived.

I'd favour the opposite approach when dealing with such obvious cultist loons... simply give them enough rope....

You know me Daz. When do I miss an opportunity to gob off? But I sat there and kept my mouth shut last night. Standing up and disagreeing with them would have been a totally futile exercise. This wasn't a debate. This was a rally

Sounds quite fun. I loved nothing more in my politico days than winding up Socialist Workers. I'll have to keep an eye out for any meetings round my way, although up here it's more likely to be the National Front, not Momentum.

I would start with those who abstained from opposing austerity or the DWP measures.

But that was whipped party policy.

You can't go in about 'loyalty' and then accuse people who followed LP orders of being Tories.

Sounds quite fun. I loved nothing more in my politico days than winding up Socialist Workers. I'll have to keep an eye out for any meetings round my way, although up here it's more likely to be the National Front, not Momentum.

@clodhopper I have posted numerous personal examples on here before, direct experiences witnessed by myself and/or direct friends and colleagues. The most recent anti-semitism allegations came from within Labour initially OULC where Jewish Labour party members where the victims of anti-semitic abuse and highlighted that plus general anti-semitic behaviour from Labour supporters towards other Jewish students. Then we have Livingstone deliberately inflaming the issue.

The whole "slur" defence is an attempt to divert the conversation asay from the real issue. Corbyn could have put it to bed by publishing the original report from Baroness Royal in full and taking appropriate action. But he did not, to the contrary one if those named was given a senior advisory role. Then we add to the is the outright lie or inference thats it's the "zionist media"

OULC where Jewish Labour party members where the victims of anti-semitic abuse and highlighted that plus general anti-semitic behaviour from Labour supporters towards other Jewish students.

the OULC issue has much more to do with the Uinversitie's failure to tackle problems of bigotry and bullying among its various societies

meanwhile in the blue corner
(and this is ignoring the hatered and racism whipped up by the whole Brexit debacle)

• In 1989, David Cameron defied international sanctions to go on a jolly to apartheid South Africa1
on a trip funded by a firm that lobbied against the imposition of sanctions on the apartheid
regime. The Prime Minister apologised for the trip 17 years later, in 2006.

• In 2001, Tory MP Andrew Lansley told the Daily Telegraph, “There is endemic racism in the Tory
party. It is in the system.”2

• In a 2002 column for the Daily Telegraph, Boris Johnson (then MP for Henley) described black
people as “piccaninnies” with “watermelon smiles”.
He apologised six years later in 2008 (when running to be London Mayor). No disciplinary action
was taken by the Conservative Party at any point.
3

• In July 2006, Chorley Tory councillor Shaun Smith was arrested following an alleged racist
incident at Manchester airport
4.
He quit as a councillor in 2009 after refusing to provide the police with a blood sample following
a separate drink-driving incident

• While editor of The Spectator, then Tory MP Boris Johnson published an article that said
“blacks have lower IQs”. Another article from around the same time said that Caribbeans were
"multiplying like flies"
5. Mr Johnson apologised in 2008, but no disciplinary action was taken.

• In February 2009, Bolton Conservative councillor Bob Allen posted a picture of a gorilla alongside
a critical comment about an Asian Labour councillor on a blog6. He apologised, the Conservative
Party investigated, but it is not known if any disciplinary action was taken. According to his Twitter
profile, he remains a Tory councillor

• In March 2009, Leicestershire Tory councillor Robert Fraser said that Romanians would "stick a
knife in you as soon as look at you", as well as insulting East Europeans and the Irish, saying
“Some of these European ones, they make the Irish look like complete amateurs and I would
dread, I would dread, to see them in Groby”8
The Tory Party sent him on diversity training, but he was allowed to stand again for the Tories.

• In November 2009, Tory MP for Spelthorne, David Wilshire, said the expose of MPs expenses
left them treated like Jews in Nazi Germany, stating “Branding a whole group of people as
undesirables led to Hitler’s gas chambers”9
David Cameron asked him to apologise.

• In November 2009, Orpington Tory councillor Peter Hobbins, complained that none of the
prospective parliamentary candidates “has a normal English name” – questioning “Why are the
Candidates Department so keen on these foreign names?!!!!”10
He was suspended by the party.

• In January 2010, Tory councillor for Colne, Smith Benson, complained that there were “too many
P***s” in his town. Council Leader Tony Beckett refused to discipline him and said, “I think for
the Labour Party to say he should be sacked for making a sweeping statement is a bit strong.”11

• In January 2011, Baroness Warsi gave a speech about rising Islamophobia. Tory Lord Tebbit wrote
a blog dismissing her case and saying “a period of silence from the Baroness might not come
amiss.”12

• In August 2011, Tory Dover councillor Bob Frost described people involved in the riots as
“jungle bunnies”.
He lost his job as a Maths teacher, but the Conservative Party only suspended him for two months,
readmitting him in November 2011.
13
In 2014, he referred to the prospective Middle Eastern buyers of Dover port as “sons of camel
drivers”14. No disciplinary action was taken and Tory MP Charlie Elphicke defended him, saying
“I think the Labour Party is trying to victimise Cllr Frost.”
In May 2015, Cllr Frost was in trouble again for tweeting that a Big Issue seller should "**** off
back to Romania".
He was suspended pending investigation.
15

• In December 2011, Tory MP for Cannock Chase, Aidan Burley, helped organise a Nazi-themed
stag party.
In June 2012, David Cameron ordered he be sacked from his role as PPS to then Transport
Secretary Justine Greening – and ordered a fuller investigation.
16
Later in 2012, Mr Burley described the London Olympics’ opening ceremony as "leftie
multicultural crap"
17
In 2014 an internal Tory Party inquiry cleared him of any racism or anti-semitism.

• In January 2013, an Enfield Tory councillor Chris Joannides compared Muslim children to black bin
bags in a Facebook post.
He denied being Islamophobic,
18 but was suspended from the party for a year. It is not clear if he
has now been readmitted19, though when cleared from prosecution he thanked the local Tory MP,
David Burrowes, for standing by him.

• In April 2013, Tory councillor for West Sussex, John Cherry, told the Mail on Sunday, "Ninety-seven
per cent of pupils will be black or Asian. It depends what type of Asian. If they're Chinese they'll
rise to the top. If they're Indian they'll rise to the top. If they're ****stani they won't,” and
described Stockwell as “a coloured area”.
21
He resigned his position as a councillor, but there is no indication he faced any sanction from the
Conservative Party.

• In April 2014, a Tory Barnet councillor, Tom Davey, was accused of being not fit for office, after a
Facebook post came to light in which he suggested it might be easier to find a job if he were “a
black female wheelchair-bound amputee who is sexually attracted to other women”.
22
No disciplinary action was taken by the Conservative Party.

• In May 2014, David Bishop, a Tory council candidate in Brentwood, Essex, tweeted "It's good to be
anti-Islam” and called Islam “the religion of peace & rape”.
He resigned from the Conservative Party.

• In May 2014, Tory Coulsdon activist Stephen Lees tweeted “Every single Muslim should be
expelled from this country – not deported – expelled, and every mosque demolished.
23
The Conservative Party denied he was a member.
24 Yet he was apparently a former Secretary of
Coulsdon South Conservatives25

• In August 2014 UCL Conservative Society was under scrutiny for a series of anti-semitic,
Islamophobic and racist remarks, fostering a culture of discrimination and bullying, and creating a
“toxic” environment. One comment included, “Jews own everything, we all know it’s true. I wish I
was Jewish, but my nose isn’t long enough”.
26
In October 2014 after an investigation by UCL Union, the Conservative Society was ordered to
apologise27. There is no evidence that the Conservative Party investigated the incidents.

• In October 2014, Maidenhead Tory councillor Alan Mellins suggested complained about Travellers
and said the solution was to “Execute them.”
He apologised and then later resigned as a councillor over the incident. It is not clear whether the
Conservative Party took any disciplinary action.

• In January 2015, Derek Laud, a former aide to both Margaret Thatcher and John Major, described
the Conservative Party as “essentially racist”. He went on, “They are the ultimate racists because
they deal in stereotypes."
28

• In January 2015, a Conservative councillor for Bishop’s Stortford was accused of anti-semitism for
a tweet and condemned by Tory MP Robert Halfon as “abhorrent” and “unacceptable”.
29
Councillor Colin Woodward apologised and no action was taken by the Conservative Party.

• In April 2015, a Tory candidate for Derby Council, Gulzabeen Afsar, said she would never support
“the Jew” in reference to Ed Miliband.
30
Cllr Afsar apologised, and was later suspended by the Conservative Party.

• In April 2015, a Tory council candidate in Luton, David Coulter, described Travellers as “pikies”
and “thieving troublemakers”.
He was suspended.

• In May 2015, a Tory councillor, Thomas Crockett for Maida Vale in Westminster, compared some
young locals with the Hitler Youth.
He apologised and no disciplinary action was taken.

• In May 2015, Tory councillor for Leicestershire Bob Fahey referred to a fellow councillor
as a “Chink”.
33
This is no record of any disciplinary action and apparently remains a Conservative councillor
34.

• In September 2015, Tory councillor for East Renfrewshire, and former parliamentary candidate
Gordon MacAskill tweeted: "Scenes we'd like to see: the refugees Nicola invites into her house are
Daesh moles”, in response to the Scottish First Minister saying she would take in a Syrian refugee.
35
He was suspended by the Party, but has seemingly been reinstated.

• In October 2015, a Tory councillor in Rugby, Jim Buckley, tweeted re: Sadiq Khan,
“Your next London Mayor? You think his corner shop would be open on a Saturday?”
He was suspended from the Conservative Party, and charged (though not convicted) with
sending an offensive message.

• In December 2015, it was revealed that Oliver Letwin then an adviser to Margaret Thatcher had
made a series of racist remarks following the riots in 1985, describing black people as having
“bad moral attitudes”, and saying schemes to help black people would be spent in “the disco and
drugs trade” and employment programmes would only see black people “graduate … into
unemployment and crime”.
37
The Conservative Party took no disciplinary action and Mr Letwin remains a government minister.

• On 27 January 2016, Prime Minister David Cameron described refugees fleeing Syria and other
conflicts as “a bunch of migrants”38. He has previously spoken of a “swarm of people coming
across the Mediterranean”39
He has yet to apologise for either comment.

• In February 2016, Glasgow Tory councillor David Meikle accused the SNP of anti-semitism for
opposing the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land.
40
He later apologised and withdrew his comments

• Matthew Sephton41, Tory councillor in Altrincham, tweeted on 31 January 2016 a leaflet that read:
“Tired of your job? Sick of working 40 hours or more each week just to feed your family? Would
you like to relax all day and still have all the benefits of a full time job? If you answered yes to
any of these questions, then you should consider moving to England, The Welfare Country.”
In September 2015, he was accused of posting “vile” and “disgusting” comments on Facebook,
including “they should be transported directly back” and ”Refugees in ‘angry stand-off with
police’ in #Hungary? What on earth do they think they're doing?! They’re guests, not there by
any right!"
42
No action was taken for either incident, and he remains Chair of Greater Manchester
Conservatives

• In March 2016, the deputy provost of South Ayrshire Council, Tory councillor Mary Kilpatrick
backed attacks on fasting during Ramadan and calls to outlaw Muslim veils.
She apologised, but the Conservative Party merely issued a reminder to all its elected
representatives and candidates over online behaviour. 44

• Boris Johnson, Tory MP and current Mayor of London, wrote in an article for The Sun in April 2016,
that asserted that US president Barack Obama had an “ancestral dislike” of Britain, and described
him as “part-Kenyan”.
He was criticised by Tory MP Nicolas Soames45 as “appalling” and ”totally wrong”, but backed by
Nigel Farage. No disciplinary action was taken or investigation launched.

• In April 2016, former Tory parliamentary candidate Shazia Awan wrote of Zac Goldsmith’s mayoral
campaign, “one cannot forgive a collection of divisive literature and rhetoric within this negative
campaign”, adding “if the current mayoral campaign is anything to go by, there is a very real
danger that it will drag the party back to the prejudice, intolerance and ignorance of 50 years
ago.”46

• In April 2016, Fareham Tory councillor David Whittingham mimicked foreign accents, said he
didn’t want foreigners living in his road and made comments and behaviour that were “racist in
nature”.
47
He was kicked out of the Conservative Party in April 2016.

• In April 2016, the deputy chairman of Bradford Conservative Association, Abdul Zaman, made
inappropriate comments about Jews and women while speaking at a launch event for the local
election campaign.
49
He was suspended.

• In April 2016, Tory peer Baroness Warsi wrote, in relation to the London mayoral campaign of
Zac Goldsmith, “the right needs to weed out its Islamophobes ... Dog-whistle nasty politics is
damaging the UK”50

• In April 2016, lifelong Tory voter and Daily Mail columnist Peter Oborne wrote, “Goldsmith's
campaign for mayor has become the most repulsive I have ever seen

Perfect, you've proved that the lefties repeatedly take offence at a whole multitude of fairly innocuous things and jump up and down demanding apologies for the latest 'ism' that the Tories have committed.

Double standards or what!

From buster bloodvessel's description, I would imagine that voicing "non deriguer" opinions at that meeting would have been like facing down The Donald at one of his performances.

Only more dangerous...

Right from the word go there was the assumption that everyone present was an evangelical believer. I couldn't quite make my mind up whether that was naïveté, or just total arrogance, given that they then launched straight into the details of their agenda of how they are going to go about unseating who and when, and how they'll do it.

I concluded it must be the latter as I doubt you get many dissenting voices in the Islington echo chamber. None, in fact. No time for that in this brave new world.

I mean, if that kind of information were to be fed directly back to the constituency party, complete with names and timescales by someone or other, as soon as they walked out of there, as they strolled down to the pub for a well needed pint.....

That'd be terrible. treachery even 😉

Well, Momentum is directly descended from the 'Support Jeremy Corbyn' campaign, so it's not a totally unreasonable assumption that most people motivated enough to trudge along would be in the fan club.

And on reflection, given that you don't have a sitting Labour MP, again I suppose it's not unreasonable for the JC fan club to want the next candidate to be a supporter. The previous candidate has to be reselected for the next general election, presumably.

So it's not a question of unseating, just musical chairs.

It's when this lot start turning up with the same lines at constituency party meetings that the fun really starts.

Kimbers I don't contest any if the issues identified on that list and no doubt a lot worse is done "behind the lines" my and I think others concern is the fact that Corbyn/Brexit/Momentum are handing the type of people on that list virtually unopposed political power for the foreseeable future which they can effortlessly maintain by keeping the middle class (perceived and actual) pensioners and the right wing (read UKIP and Northern Working Class) happy - they will leave Scotland to the SNP. Corbyn people continually talk of winning elections as not important, John Dilenger (American Gangster) once said you can get a long way with a kind words but you can get a lot further with a kind words and a gun "Corbyn got no gun" Theresa May (like Thatcher) has all the guns"

I would still be interested in knowing what town it was, specially as they have set up Momentum so late in the day. What have they been doing the last 12 months, never mind the last 2 months - haven't they been following the news ffs ?

it's a northern mill town with people still working in factories

so a bit different to Croydon or Islington

The Labour Candidate was better than his predecessor who was parachuted in and her predecessor who was David Chaytor.

The Communist Party of Great Britain hasn't fielded a candidate for as long as I can remember

And on reflection, given that you don't have a sitting Labour MP, again I suppose it's not unreasonable for the JC fan club to want the next candidate to be a supporter.

Indeed. But what this does in underline the fact that they've no desire (and no clue how) to win elections. Its a key marginal constituency that was decided by a handful of votes. The sitting Tory is your full on Hang 'em and flog 'em, rabidly anti-EU right wing nut job, who seems to be increasingly pissing off even the Tories, he's that insane. The idea that what the seat needs for victory is the present centre ground candidate booting out, and some screaming lefty installed instead is absolute madness!

So confirming that actually winning seats that would swing you a parliamentary majority isn't even on their radar. They must know there isn't a cat in hells chance of some screaming lefty getting elected round here

I bet Theresa can't believe her bloody luck. All this shit is the greatest gift ever

it's a northern mill town with people still working in factories

It's a rather well to do town for middle class people who commute to Manchester.

Its both. Depending on whereabouts in the constituency you are. Some times you even get both right next to each other.

Mad eh?

I'll get out there and have a word with people and ask if we can be pigeon-holed more neatly?

Its both. Depending on whereabouts in the constituency you are. Some times you even get both right next to each other.

The meeting was in Ramsbottom, I believe. I moved there in 1984, it certainly had a very different character back then.

Its both. Depending on whereabouts in the constituency you are

funnily enough, a lot like Islington then 😉

/threadhijack

The meeting was in Ramsbottom, I believe. I moved there in 1984, it certainly had a very different character back then.

Don't worry, Binners. I understand your constituency is now profiled as 'hostile'.

The meeting was in Ramsbottom, I believe. I moved there in 1984, it certainly had a very different character back then.

Town changing over a 30 year period shocka!

And as you know it, what would you say the chances were of an MP getting elected there on a pro Corbyn ticket?

Town changing over a 30 year period shocka!

Really? Just like everywhere else then.

Yes and no. There are plenty of other mill towns in East Lancashire that are still mired in post-industrial decline.

And as you know it, what would you say the chances were of an MP getting elected there on a pro Corbyn ticket?

Marginal at best.

I'd say that was rather over-optimistic, to say the least. And I was talking about Bury North generally, rather than our street.

I'd say that was rather over-optimistic, to say the least. And I was talking about Bury North generally, rather than our street.

It depends on what you mean by "pro-Corbyn", doesn't it? We know that many if not most people support policies he proposes, nationalising railways for example. It's not as if Corbyn is the communist he is made out to be...

No, the problem is that the Labour party lacks any credibility, so it seems to me that a candidate standing on an anti-Corbyn platform would simply re-enforce the well-founded notion that the Labour party is too riven by infighting to be let anywhere near power.

But as I pointed out, at the last GE the labour party missed out on the constituency (under Millibean) by a handful of votes. 12 months later under the inspirational leadership of Saint Jeremy of Islington and look at the state of the party. If there were an election tomorrow, David Nuttall (who has hardly covered himself in glory, to say the least) would win by a landslide.

With what they're planning - more pro-Corbyn MPs to replace the centre left ones, you see that improving?

And I can see is that being replicated in all marginal seats. All the polls say that. So... the result? A huge Tory majority.

Yay for Jezza and Momentum

Oh...sorry. They're just misunderstood, aren't they? Its all the right wing presses fault for being horrid to poor old Jeremy, and refusing to report on how devastatingly effective he's being against the Tories

Different question for all you old salts in this, if you can steer away from the general pro/anti Corbyn theme thats in place, and if you can be bothered answering.

I guess its an existential question: as a pre-req, can you ignore for the fact that we have an entity called "The Labour Party" or "New Labour" in any shape or form for a minute. Tricky to do, but you all have powerful imaginations and can hypothesis, so carry on.

The question for you is this:

-Is there still a place and, more importantly- a need- for a traditionally leftist party in this country?

'Leftist' can take many forms, but I'm really meaning the period immediately prior to Blair.

If you choose to answer, please try not to be pejorative or cling to stereotypes. I'm just wondering what you think.

Suggested themes would be along the lines of:
-its needed/not needed for balance
-its better/worse to have opposition thats in favour/against the current predominance
-etc

As said, existential.

If you can't be assed, thats fine too.

Arse.

FTFY.

But as I pointed out, at the last GE the labour party missed out on the constituency (under Millibean) by a handful of votes. 12 months later under the inspirational leadership of Saint Jeremy of Islington and look at the state of the party. If there were an election tomorrow, David Nuttall (who has hardly covered himself in glory, to say the least) would win by a landslide.

I've never thought Corbyn to be a particularly effective leader, but come on: the current state of the Labour party has much to do with the ridiculous infighting from people who ought to know better.

With what they're planning - more pro-Corbyn MPs to replace the centre left ones, you see that improving?

Oh...sorry. They're just misunderstood, aren't they? Its all the right wing presses fault for being horrid to poor old Jeremy, and refusing to report on how devastatingly effective he's being against the Tories

"Yourself and the Croydon Communist are certainly doing your bit to promote and highlight the more intelligent, and civilised, level of debate within the Corbynista ranks Clodhopper."

Oh do behave yourself. Intelligent and civilised? All you've done on this entire thread, is post deliberately inflammatory prejudiced bollocks. I've merely lowered myself to your level, because you aren't capable of debating at any level higher than kindergarten.

So you went to a Momentum meeting, and didn't once challenge anyone, or put your own views across? Really? At a Momentum meeting? 😆 Just proves you haven't got the balls to actually stand up, publicly, and put your own views across, and need the safety and anonymity of the internet to rant on about whatever jingoistic crap you chose.

"From buster bloodvessel's description, I would imagine that voicing "non deriguer" opinions at that meeting would have been like facing down The Donald at one of his performances.

Only more dangerous..."

😆

And 5thelefant can't tell the difference between Momentum members and actual nazis/ Let's help them out (as they are clearly politicaly clueless):

What Binners is scared of:

[img] [/img]

Absolutely terrifying, I'm sure you'll all agree. 😆

Actual nazis (can I use the term 'scum'?):

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Hope this helps.

"@clodhopper I have posted numerous personal examples on here before, direct experiences witnessed by myself and/or direct friends and colleagues."

Forgive me, but that's just your own account of things, you've yet to actually prove what you claim. And as you routinely post up clearly biased personal opinions, distorted facts, and sometimes downright untruths, I think even you will accept that people may well take your comments with a big pinch of salt.

Now, seeing as you claim to be so concerned about anti-Semitism, you might do better to direct your energies towards the very disturbing fact that a known far-right extremist xenophobic organisation has allied itself with Israel. given that we know, from the images above, that members of that organisation are avid proponents of Nazism, do you not think it might be better to concentrate instead on this, rather than waffling on forlornly about Corbyn and anti-Semitism?

[img] [/img]

ninfan - Member
'I would start with those who abstained from opposing austerity or the DWP measures.'
But that was whipped party policy.

You can't go in about 'loyalty' and then accuse people who followed LP orders of being Tories.

If they follow orders to abstain from opposing austerity etc, then that is being a Tory. If you have principles you will not follow the whip in such cases.

Who are they supposed to be loyal to? Their job is to represent the people and put them before the party and personal benefits. So I suppose that makes them gutless Red Tories.

I agree with epicylo. Voting to bomb syria and not voting against the austerity measures makes them unfit to be in the labour party.

Cody - in answer to your question yes. A proper left of centre ( and I don't mean hard left) party is needed in this country. We need redistibution of wealth. We need an end to nukes, we need a commitment to alternative energy.

We need a leader who can spell out these advatages and how they would improve the lives of millions of ordinary folk. We need someone to galvanise these folk.

Look to scotland - the left of centre parties - SNP, Greens assorted socialists but not including labour have well over 50% of the vote between them

Nobody's forcing you to stay. As before; you are free to go and join any party you like, which you feel best represents your own views and interests.

The mating call of the [s]militant [/s]momentum cuckoo. The nest is overcrowded Binners, time to kick you out.

Looking forward to when folk pretend the SNP are left wing next....

Codybrennan good question - I consider myself in the old salts slot born 63 started work 79 so I have seen the full range of post war politics more or less, I am from a working class trade union background. In answer to your question I believe we need a socially responsible political party however that does not mean I believe in wholesale nationalisation or a benefits system that deters people from seeking work. This party should promote a flat tax system for both corporate and income tax that ensures we can support our NHS and pensions systems - i dont belive in higher tax rates based on how much you earn as this leads to tax avoidance. It should invest in SME businesses and build social housing as fast as it can. Critical infrastructure like water, power should not be sold off overseas. The minimum wage increases as detailed by George Osbourne should be deployed to remove tax credits (which should ultimately be stopped as should child benefit) as most organisations can afford to pay the increased minimum wage (I view this as social responsibility) I could go on but my teas on the table..

Is there still a place and, more importantly- a need- for a traditionally leftist party in this country?

Stupid question. If you look at the the results of the flagship policies of the past 30 years, you'll very quickly come to the conclusion that many of them have completely failed:

- Privatisation: The first one was BT. I've just come back from Sri Lanka, a country decades behind the UK in terms of infrastructure and economic development, but I could get a 3g signal everywhere, but I can't in Hebden Bridge, a town halfway between the two biggest cities in the north of England. Energy privatisation has resulted in fuel poverty where people have to decide between buying food and heating their homes. And the less said about rail privatisation the better, which has been an utter disaster. And now we have the privatisation of the NHS, the result of which is hospitals near financial collapse, multi-day waits for a GP appointment, postcode lotteries on treatment, and waiting lists approaching 1980s depths.

- Deregulation of the Financial Industry: A raging success, not, considering they took us to the brink of financial collapse, and plunged previously prospering economies into depression, debt, and brutal austerity.

- Taxation: We now have a system where normal working people pay more tax as a percentage of their income than billionaires. Do I need to mention corporate tax avoidance? Amazon, Google, Facebook, Starbucks etc have profits in the billions, yet pay a few million or less in corporation tax.

- Employments rights: Zero hours contracts, Sports Direct etc. Need I say more?

- Social Mobility: Students leaving university now have around £40k worth of debt which deters a lot of working class kids. Anyone under 30 who doesn't have parents who benefitted from the property boom and pensions largesse now has no hope of buying a home. If you're not already from a family already financially comfortable, you've precious little chance of getting there yourself.

- Erosion of the Welfare State: Workfare, bedroom tax, persecution of the disabled and sick, benefit sanctions. All horrific stuff I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.

Need I go on? I haven't even got onto the corrupt influence on politics by corporations, climate change, the erosion of democracy, terrorism caused by reckless adventurist wars, reduction in real wages etc. So yes, I think we still do need a political party of the left who can act on behalf of normal people. The current problems in the labour party are that for a long time, and despite the wishes of their members and voters, they've not done this. Thatcher said her biggest achievement was Tony Blair. She was right.

Looking forward to when [s]folk[/s]you pretend [s]the SNP are left[/s]you are not right wing next....

"-Is there still a place and, more importantly- a need- for a traditionally leftist party in this country?"

More than ever. The delusion by several posters on this thread that mainstream politics is in any way 'centrist', is irrefutable proof of that. When posters are calling actual lefties in the Labour party 'cuckoos', when in fact it's the Blairites (I love how that term is now an insult, it deserves to be!) who are the cuckoos, shows just how clueless so many people are about what is actually left, right or centre.

But far more importantly; the rise in the the popularity of hard right parties such as UKIP (which ironically was formed by a former Liberal Eurosceptic but attracted hard-right tories and other assorted racists), and the rise of far-right fascist extremism in the UK and Europe, highlights the need for a genuinely left-wing party to be able to counter the dominance of right-wing politics, and get people to re-engage with the political process. Right-wing politics is all about divide and rule, and is ultimately undemocratic, as is extreme left-wing political ideology. So we need something around the middle, to form a good balance. At the moment, we don't have that.

And the inevitable reality is, that as a declining economic force, the UK will need to rely on 'socialist' systems of social organisation, if it is to survive as a nation. Things like the NHS, education and social welfare. Things the tories are desperately trying to get rid of.

"Codybrennan good question - I consider myself in the old salts slot born 63 started work 79 so I have seen the full range of post war politics more or less, I am from a working class trade union background. In answer to your question I believe we need a socially responsible political party however that does not mean I believe in wholesale nationalisation or a benefits system that deters people from seeking work. This party should promote a flat tax system for both corporate and income tax that ensures we can support our NHS and pensions systems - i dont belive in higher tax rates based on how much you earn as this leads to tax avoidance. It should invest in SME businesses and build social housing as fast as it can. Critical infrastructure like water, power should not be sold off overseas. The minimum wage increases as detailed by George Osbourne should be deployed to remove tax credits (which should ultimately be stopped as should child benefit) as most organisations can afford to pay the increased minimum wage (I view this as social responsibility)"

As I said; why we need a left-wing Labour party. Because we won't get any of the above from the tories!

and the rise of far-right fascist extremism in the UK and Europe, highlights the need for a genuinely left-wing party to be able to counter the dominance of right-wing politics

You don't really understand politics, do you 5thElefant?

Shame.

no you are nuts if you think genuinely left wing means extreme

no you are nuts if you think genuinely left wing means extreme

Clodhopper not sure all of my post would go down well with JC -
Flat 20% income tax rate? Regardless of earnings
Flat 20% corporation tax?
Scrap Tax Credits?
Scrap child benefit?
That's the centre bit of social responsibility

You don't really understand politics, do you 5thElefant?

Just ignore them as in the UK extreme right or left are tiny fringe parties. The majority of people in the UK are neither racist or Marxists. Which is why generally the UK is a nice place to live.

Aside: SNP are neither left or right they are nationalist, authoritarian.